Ben Brereton Diaz

[philipl]

Congratulations to Ben for getting player of the weekend for the Championship.

 

[LeftWinger]

I was just looking at this page on the BBC website for top assisters in the Championship.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/championship/top-scorers/assists

It's only got Brereton as having 2 assists, so must not count the penalty he won and the one that hit the post for Dolan to score.

His other stats make for pretty impressive reading though.

It suggests he's created 12 chances - only one other player on the list had created more (Buendia at Norwich).

There's only one other player with a higher pass completion rate than him on the list as well.

Harvey Elliot is also doing very well on the list considering he's only played 3 games as well.

[Stuart]

This thread suddenly got awfully quiet!

[TBTF]

On 26/10/2020 at 08:19, DavidMailsTightPerm said:

I think (and this isn't BBs fault,) £7m was far too much for a Championship side to pay for potential. Even most Premiership sides would have hesitated at that price. 

If he continues to improve, and possibly plays a key role in promotion we may look back and congratulate TM for his eye for a player - but will still think it was a huge gamble for a mid table Championship club.

Not kidding!

what position did we think we were  filling for £7million ?? Serious question . That’s the kind of money you’d pay for a pretty Decent goal return , very likely a central striker .Safe to say that ain’t happening .. ......ever. 
So when we bought him what did we have in mind?

There can’t be an answer that justifies it so ergo a waste of a lot of money . 
Then we move on to Gallagher - hells bloody bells. 
Somebody at that Club should have been relieved of their post for such crass misjudgements and reckless squandering of much needed cash. All this carried out in the ‘defenders are coming ‘ era.

They are  decisions which you can’t get away with in any other occupation. 
 Not much more to say really. £12million spent neither problem solved .

[SamTheShrew]

8 hours ago, Stuart said:

This thread suddenly got awfully quiet!

He requires some shooting practice, that’s for sure. Quite a few tame daisy cutters along the floor.

definitely improving though, credit to him.

gallagher on the other hand...god knows what Mowbray is trying to achieve by putting him on the right. ?‍♂️

[Stuart]

8 hours ago, TBTF said:

Not kidding!

what position did we think we were  filling for £7million ?? Serious question . That’s the kind of money you’d pay for a pretty Decent goal return , very likely a central striker .Safe to say that ain’t happening .. ......ever. 
So when we bought him what did we have in mind?

There can’t be an answer that justifies it so ergo a waste of a lot of money . 
Then we move on to Gallagher - hells bloody bells. 
Somebody at that Club should have been relieved of their post for such crass misjudgements and reckless squandering of much needed cash. All this carried out in the ‘defenders are coming ‘ era.

They are  decisions which you can’t get away with in any other occupation. 
 Not much more to say really. £12million spent neither problem solved .

Spot on.

I’d also add what happens going forward? At what point do we look to “protect our investment” by offering him a new contract? And what criteria would he need to meet to justify one? Is he on low enough wages so as to make it an easy decision? Doesn’t he still have any potential to repay the investment? How much are we likely to recoup? So many questions and having a few decent games against poor teams seems to forgive a lot.

Time now Brereton won’t have many suitors with offers above a couple of million. It’s arguable his development has gone backwards during his time here from where he was at Forest. I’d actually be interested to see how he would do here under a decent manager. He has certainly bulked up, with some psychological help could he be turned into Kevin Davies type target man and become more effective?

The £7m price tag may well come back and bite us a second time.

[JacknOry]

Third time, Grabbi was 7 mil too.

[AllRoverAsia]

2 minutes ago, JacknOry said:

Third time, Grabbi was 7 mil too.

PL days/

Different times. 

[JacknOry]

1 minute ago, AllRoverAsia said:

PL days/

Different times. 

Was in response to Davies who was also PL days.

[Stuart]

14 minutes ago, AllRoverAsia said:

PL days/

Different times. 

At the time £7m was still a lot of money.

The difference was that when it didn’t work it was dealt with.

Managers didn’t (and still don’t) have time to wait for an investment to work out - except if Venkys like them.

Brereton has just about reached the level, still fleetingly, that he should have been at the time he joined.

According to transfermarkt .com Brereton is worth £2.25m in the current climate. That’s not even in the top 100 Championship players. Our £7m has to be paid back on the pitch.

[philipl]

At least with Ben, I think there is increasing basis for hope that after a quiescent two seasons he is blossoming into something we hoped for.

The deadweight write-off is Sam Gallagher's £5m transfer fee. Wrong position or not, he just doesn't have the basics of reading the game or controlling a football. Hope I am wrong on Sam but he is mid-20s now and at this rate destined to slip out on a free when his contract expires.

[Mattyblue]

Considering he’s contracted until 2023 that’s some deadweight!

Edited October 29, 2020 by Mattyblue

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

2 minutes ago, philipl said:

Hope I am wrong on Sam but he is mid-20s now and at this rate destined to slip out on a free when his contract expires.

You can't expect anyone to thrive being continually played out of position. 

[Exiled_Rover]

1 hour ago, AllRoverAsia said:

PL days/

Different times. 

Not really. £7m was a lot of money back then.

[Exiled_Rover]

15 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

You can't expect anyone to thrive being continually played out of position. 

I'd expect him to look somewhat like a footballer when he crosses the white line though.

He doesn't use the physical gifts he's been blessed with - but we knew that after his last stint here. 

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

Just now, Exiled_Rover said:

I'd expect him to look somewhat like a footballer when he crosses the white line though.

He doesn't use the physical gifts he's been blessed with - but we knew that after his last stint here. 

He does when he's played up front. 12 goals in a Coyle team is a good return. He's been poorly used by Mowbray. 

Any big forward/target man would look shit on the wing. Put Sutton out there, or Santa Cruz. How would they look. The problem isn't Gallagher. 

[LeftWinger]

I'm not Gallagher's biggest fan - but he's actually scored a goal every 58 minutes on the pitch over his last 6 appearances. 173 minutes / 3 goals.

[roversfan99]

40 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

He does when he's played up front. 12 goals in a Coyle team is a good return. He's been poorly used by Mowbray. 

Any big forward/target man would look shit on the wing. Put Sutton out there, or Santa Cruz. How would they look. The problem isn't Gallagher. 

"In a Coyle team" actually involves playing in a very attacking side with 2 wide men and 2 forwards, wrecklessly so without any thought of defending.

People often use that season as an example of how he did well under mitigating circumstances but if anything he benefitted from being "in a Coyle side" because it was attacking, and even then his goal record was 1 in 4, so average at best. He also had a really poor spell at Birmingham.

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

5 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

In a Coyle team" actually involves playing in a very attacking side with 2 wide men and 2 forwards, wrecklessly so without any thought of defending.

see Tony Mowbray. 

And it wasn't that attacking. We hardly put teams under the cosh! We also have better players now.

And, yes, Gally will thrive in a team that plays with wingers who can cross the ball. 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Hoochie Bloochie Mama

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

14 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

"In a Coyle team" actually involves playing in a very attacking side with 2 wide men and 2 forwards, wrecklessly so without any thought of defending.

People often use that season as an example of how he did well under mitigating circumstances but if anything he benefitted from being "in a Coyle side" because it was attacking, and even then his goal record was 1 in 4, so average at best. He also had a really poor spell at Birmingham.

And then did nothing back at Southampton. I can't believe there weren't better options out there.

[Oldgregg86]

I was one of the few who thought Sam coming back , even for the fee, would turn out to be sound investment. That was on the premise he came back as Danny Graham’s long term successor. I honestly believe if you swapped Gallagher for Ivan Toney the goals would dry up here for Toney and Gallagher would be on the sheet every other week. I think he is being badly misused and his confidence has nose dived from the young lad that turned up here and was a breathe of fresh air under coyle. Sadly I think phillipl is right. He will be let go after his contract expires and like graham start rebuilding his reputation at a later stage of his career .

Edited October 29, 2020 by Oldgregg86

[roversfan99]

22 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

see Tony Mowbray. 

And it wasn't that attacking. We hardly put teams under the cosh! We also have better players now.

And, yes, Gally will thrive in a team that plays with wingers who can cross the ball. 

I wouldnt say thrive, more do ok, average.

1 minute ago, Oldgregg86 said:

I was one of the few who thought Sam coming back , even for the fee, would turn out to be sound investment. That was on the premise he came back as Danny Graham’s long term successor. I honestly believe if you swapped Gallagher for Ivan Toney the goals would dry up here for Toney and Gallagher would be on the sheet every other week. I think he is being badly misused and his confidence has nose dived from the young lad that turned up here and was a breathe of fresh air under coyle. Sadly I think phillipl is right. He will be let go after his contract expires and like graham start rebuilding his reputation at a later stage of his career .

I certainly agree that the choice to play him out wide very much hinders him, but I dont think that he would be able to take over from Toney and start scoring with similar regularity. Gallagher is not a goalscorer, he doesnt sniff out chances, I dont think he would be prolific regardless of the team he was put in because of that. Armstrong is obviously prolific in this team but if you swapped him for Gallagher he wouldnt carry on as Armstrong is doing or even close. For me, the best you would ever get out of him is maybe just about hitting double figures as he did in the season that he was "a breath of fresh air" which I feel is a little bit exaggerated, for me he was ok, nothing more. 

He lacks the intelligence that Graham had to start thinking about being his successor. Graham could hold the ball up, he could use his body brilliantly, he could link play and he could anticipate where the ball would fall, I think Gallagher is massively lacking on all of those fronts. Gallagher is more mobile (without being particularly fast) and has a better leap to win headers compared to Graham, although again it falls down to intelligence, Graham could use his body to create an angle to nod the ball down intelligently whereas Gallagher rarely can manage that.

I feel that his role should just be as very much a Plan B, I dont think he is anywhere near good enough to be playing week in week out for a top half Championship side. Armstrong may get injured at some point or we may want a second striker if we need a goal, in which case by all means bring on Gallagher.

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

I dont think he is anywhere near good enough to be playing week in week out for a top half Championship side.

That's a fairly meaningless statement. If he was given a full season up front in a team that plays to his strengths he might get 15 goals. Last season that would have made him joint top scorer (ish) in our team that finished top half.

[roversfan99]

Just now, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

That's a fairly meaningless statement. If he was given a full season up front in a team that plays to his strengths he might get 15 goals. Last season that would have made him joint top scorer (ish) in our team that finished top half.

He might do, but I think thats a big assumption and not something that correlates with the Sam Gallagher that I have seen, in my opinion.

[Oldgregg86]

9 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I wouldnt say thrive, more do ok, average.

I certainly agree that the choice to play him out wide very much hinders him, but I dont think that he would be able to take over from Toney and start scoring with similar regularity. Gallagher is not a goalscorer, he doesnt sniff out chances, I dont think he would be prolific regardless of the team he was put in because of that. Armstrong is obviously prolific in this team but if you swapped him for Gallagher he wouldnt carry on as Armstrong is doing or even close. For me, the best you would ever get out of him is maybe just about hitting double figures as he did in the season that he was "a breath of fresh air" which I feel is a little bit exaggerated, for me he was ok, nothing more. 

He lacks the intelligence that Graham had to start thinking about being his successor. Graham could hold the ball up, he could use his body brilliantly, he could link play and he could anticipate where the ball would fall, I think Gallagher is massively lacking on all of those fronts. Gallagher is more mobile (without being particularly fast) and has a better leap to win headers compared to Graham, although again it falls down to intelligence, Graham could use his body to create an angle to nod the ball down intelligently whereas Gallagher rarely can manage that.

I feel that his role should just be as very much a Plan B, I dont think he is anywhere near good enough to be playing week in week out for a top half Championship side. Armstrong may get injured at some point or we may want a second striker if we need a goal, in which case by all means bring on Gallagher.

Looking at the Gallagher we have now I would have to agree. However when he left here he was shunted our wide for Birmingham and we all know what’s happened here. How is the guy supposed to learn his trade and build confidence, which goals breed being dropped every other game and playing out wide and cameos on the wing. His progression has clearly been stifled because as raw as he was the Sam who came on loan had all the attributes and ability to kick on as far as I could see. I watched Toney play at Peterborough and Wigan and he never really impressed me to the point I thought he could kick on in the championship to good standard. Toney has persistently been played in his favoured role with players around him playing to his strengths and the evidence is there for all to see his progress. I just find it hard to blame Sam for things clearly out of his control . He comes on does as he is told and gives 100 percent. What more can he do. He will never progress or learn his trade the way we are using him. If he was at Brentford within 12 months he would be seen as a good championship striker.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Oldgregg86