Ben Brereton Diaz

[JBiz]

31 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

You know brfcs isn’t representative of the wider fanbase, you’ve banged that drum for years when you were being accused of being ‘Mr Contrarian’ on some issue or other,  but now it ‘surely must be’ as it backs up your point about the massed pitchfork-ers in that bear pit down Ewood.

Good to see you are straight back into the saddle...

Ah come on, I’ve barely looked at this place for 12 months.

If it’s such a contentious idea to you, that the wider fanbase IS represented by this site, I’ll gladly concede.
 

Still, doesn’t change my view on earlier comments in this thread.

[Silas]

5 hours ago, JBiz said:

Just check out the first few pages of this thread. The slagging off, ....

 

I did as you asked. Not the result I was expecting from your statement. ??

 

On 28/08/2018 at 20:42, neophox said:

Fantastic signing!! Exciting Times!

 

On 28/08/2018 at 20:57, Tom said:

An exciting signing for sure and a proper statement of intent.

 

On 28/08/2018 at 21:05, watford-rover said:

Still I’ve got my positive trousers on, great signing, 

 

On 28/08/2018 at 23:18, roversfan99 said:

One thing Id definitely say is that I am excited to see how he gets on, and it feels like a statement of intent.

 

On 28/08/2018 at 23:23, bluebruce said:

Good luck Ben! If you deliver like we hope, you'll be a terrific signing.

 

On 29/08/2018 at 00:16, RevidgeBlue said:

Absolutely vital signing.....

Good luck Ben.

 

On 29/08/2018 at 00:40, chaddyrovers said:

Excellent signing. 

Very pleased

That's the first 2 pages. I think by page 3 a few posters are questioning the fee and whether it could be spent better on the defence.

But that's not a reflection on BB himself,  can't see any personal derogatory comments towards him, just budgetary queries. 

I think you're maybe getting confused with the comments made about BB after he had severely underperformed in a Rovers shirt for over 18 months. But I'm guessing he would be big enough to admit that period simply wasn't good enough himself.

Let's not rewrite history and pretend he was never welcomed to the club. 

A lot of people, including me, came to the conclusion there wasn't a player in there and he'd never come good. He's proved us very wrong the last 6 months, which is great news.

Subsequently a lot of people, including me, have held our hands up and admitted we got it wrong. 

So not quite sure what point you're trying to make. Isn't that what you wanted? The masses to see the light? (Or more like Ben to shine the light).

It's happened, you've got your wish. You should be happy no? 

Unless, of course,  it's just "I told you so!" points you're after. ?

In which case, just let me know how many, and I'll bag em up and send your direction asap. 

[JBiz]

13 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and it wouldn't be the first time this club or others have been severely burnt by spending big fees on so called good players. 

Most predictable defence for anyone vociferous in past about level of the lads ability,

predicting a 19 year old WOULD get better has nothing to do with “Hindsight”

[JBiz]

Just now, Silas said:

I did as you asked. Not the result I was expecting from your statement. ??

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's the first 2 pages. I think by page 3 a few posters are questioning the fee and whether it could be spent better on the defence.

But that's not a reflection on BB himself,  can't see any personal derogatory comments towards him, just budgetary queries. 

I think you're maybe getting confused with the comments made about BB after he had severely underperformed in a Rovers shirt for over 18 months. But I'm guessing he would be big enough to admit that period simply wasn't good enough himself.

Let's not rewrite history and pretend he was never welcomed to the club. 

A lot of people, including me, came to the conclusion there wasn't a player in there and he'd never come good. He's proved us very wrong the last 6 months, which is great news.

Subsequently a lot of people, including me, have held our hands up and admitted we got it wrong. 

So not quite sure what point you're trying to make. Isn't that what you wanted? The masses to see the light? (Or more like Ben to shine the light).

It's happened, you've got your wish. You should be happy no? 

Unless, of course,  it's just "I told you so!" points you're after. ?

In which case, just let me know how many, and I'll bag em up and send your direction asap. 

Do you really want me to repost some of the comments before he even started a game? Is it necessary?

 

[tomphil]

8 minutes ago, JBiz said:

Most predictable defence for anyone vociferous in past about level of the lads ability,

predicting a 19 year old WOULD get better has nothing to do with “Hindsight”

That is so wide of the mark but predictable it would get thrown in.

Bens problem was would he get 7 million better the fee was always going to put him in the spotlight more than most young players at this level.

If every 19 year old that was going to get better actually did the conveyor belt of young talent in this country WOULD be tremendous.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

48 minutes ago, JBiz said:

Most predictable defence for anyone vociferous in past about level of the lads ability,

predicting a 19 year old WOULD get better has nothing to do with “Hindsight”

Err, not always, plenty go backwards. As the two ex-Rovers that have just signed for Chorley will bear witness.

[JBiz]

1 hour ago, tomphil said:

That is so wide of the mark but predictable it would get thrown in.

Bens problem was would he get 7 million better the fee was always going to put him in the spotlight more than most young players at this level.

If every 19 year old that was going to get better actually did the conveyor belt of young talent in this country WOULD be tremendous.

Precisely why sitting on the fence is good with any young lad - not judging fleeting performances etc. It’s just one way to look at it 

[47er]

4 hours ago, islander200 said:

He was getting it online  before he even kicked a ball for us though because of his transfer fee, something he had absolutely no control over.

I don't think anyone blames him so much as whoever signed him. He seems very appreciative of the fans from comments he has made.

In any case he's playing well now, something I never expected. 

Better late than never!

[47er]

3 hours ago, Silas said:

A lot of people, including me, came to the conclusion there wasn't a player in there and he'd never come good. He's proved us very wrong the last 6 months, which is great news.

I came to that conclusion at the time, it really was not inappropriate.

He's been very good this season BUT I still don't believe this means we got a great deal or that we couldn't have spent that money so much better.

If that money was never available for someone else as some claim, then I blame the owners.

If it was TM's choice, then I blame him. 

[philipl]

Still looking but my recollection of Mowbray's explanation of how the Ben signing came about is this.

Mowbray had agreed his transfer budget for that summer in Pune then pointed out we couldn't rely on DG keeping going for ever.

The Academy was yielding defenders and midfielders but there was a hole up front before some promising very young kids might make it.

The extra pot was made available to address that issue with a triple caveat

- must be young with profitable resale potential

- preferably English

- wages had to be within the club structure

This made finding a player who matched the requirement pretty difficult and hence Mowbray's comment at the time that summer about having had money burning a hole in his pocket before he signed Ben.

 

I am pretty certain this has been posted within the 180 pages on this thread but itis not in the first ten pages after which I gave up looking. I don't think my source for this is only a private conversation.

I also now recall Mowbray disclosed this as part of a wider interview so hence it is hard to find.

But I think Mowbray has explained this more than once.

As with Harvey Elliott now, we are finding Mowbray can be very persuasive.

The transfer fee is now consistently reported as £6m. Perhaps Ben didn't trigger a clause to make it £7m?

Edited December 1, 2020 by philipl

[Mattyblue]

Those 3 caveats are the 3 and 3 numerous posters put together on here, TM has never come out with it.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Mattyblue

[47er]

11 hours ago, JBiz said:

Precisely why sitting on the fence is good with any young lad - not judging fleeting performances etc. It’s just one way to look at it 

"fleeting"----2 years!!!!!

Welcome back Biz by the way!

[JBiz]

Just now, 47er said:

"fleeting"----2 years!!!!!

Welcome back Biz by the way!

I meant substitute apps specifically before his first league start!
 

Cheers 47er

[philipl]

2 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

Those 3 caveats are the 3 and 3 numerous posters put together on here, TM has never come out with it.

OK you live in your reality, I live in mine.

[Mattyblue]

Don’t get arsey because you can’t find the quotes...

Edited December 1, 2020 by Mattyblue

[philipl]

This will make you really arsey, I heard it relayed from Puna.

[Mattyblue]

Why would I be arsey? I don’t care what the rationale was as long as he does the business.

So anyway, this rationale wasn’t from the Mowbray quotes you thought you’d read, but your line into the regime? You’d think you would have mentioned your inside track to start with...

[roversfan99]

The initial theory was that Brereton wasnt a Mowbray signing if I recall. But even if on "inside direct lines" we take on board the theory that Mowbray had a seperate kitty for a young English striker with value, Brereton even within that remit demonstrated no hope for 2 years that he was even a successful signing amidst those restrictions. Even now, making a profit on 7m would require a lot more from him, but for those years those theoretical requirements still didnt justify why Brereton had been chosen.

Its a messageboard to give opinions and it was very fair to question the money spent prior without feeling the need to refrain in case he turns it all around, otherwise this thread may aswell have ceased to exist. Not sure there is scope for any "I told you so" either. People judged on what they saw, individually there wasnt really any flickers never mind signs that he could come good, and the defence was leaking goals when people felt that we could have spent the money or at least some of the money there instead. If the above theory is accurate for which there is no proof, then that would be a poor reflection of the owners and the way the club rather than the manager.

I dont think anything in his first 2 seasons suggested even getting to performances anything like of which we have seen this season, whereby his improvement has been an unexpected positive hence why this thread has recently been littered with us all praising him and rightly so. Lets hope he continues to improve and people can focus on the player rather than looking back and picking out critics throughout the last 2 years.

[DE.]

1 hour ago, philipl said:

OK you live in your reality, I live in mine.

Very Trump-esque quote that, Phil! It's not unreasonable to ask for evidence. Going down the 'I heard it from a source' route is fine, but it's not real proof of anything. 

All I can remember reading from Mowbray is the quote on the £7m burning a hole in his pocket and needing to be spent, and taking full credit for Brereton's signing and saying all responsibility, good or bad, was on him. That's not to say the suggestion that the money was ear-marked for a specific type of player isn't true, as circumstantial evidence points to the owners being more likely to sanction much more money for attackers than defenders, but I just can't recall any specific quotes from TM confirming this. If anything he's inferred the opposite. 

[SBlue]

I’m a big, big, happy clapper on the TM and BB front and even I think that theory is a bit silly.

If anything though - spending 6m on a “ready made player” back then to go into a squad that hadn’t been built properly yet and wasn’t near ready to challenge for a couple of years may have been the bigger waste of money -  instead spending it on one of the most highly rated youngsters in the country to mature as we did.

Again, all hindsight though. 

Not my fault none of you can recognise a footballer ?

[JBiz]

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

 

Its a messageboard to give opinions and it was very fair to question the money spent prior without feeling the need to refrain in case he turns it all around, otherwise this thread may aswell have ceased to exist. Not sure there is scope for any "I told you so" either. People judged on what they saw, individually there wasnt really any flickers never mind signs that he could come good, and the defence was leaking goals when people felt that we could have spent the money or at least some of the money there instead. If the above theory is accurate for which there is no proof, then that would be a poor reflection of the owners and the way the club rather than the manager.

I dont think anything in his first 2 seasons suggested even getting to performances anything like of which we have seen this season, whereby his improvement has been an unexpected positive hence why this thread has recently been littered with us all praising him and rightly so. Lets hope he continues to improve and people can focus on the player rather than looking back and picking out critics throughout the last 2 years.

RF - he had criticism thrown at him after a handful of sub appearances in an unnatural position. That’s not demonstrating no hope to me - it’s not even having the chance to settle.

Even in his second season - he had barely a chance to get up to speed. There is no need to judge players on limited minutes.

 

500k/5m/50m it doesn’t matter who they are or what they cost, all deserve a chance. For context too - 7m plus a standard wage over 3 / 4 years is still about 2 or 3 million less than what the Leon Best debacle cost us.

[roversfan99]

Just now, JBiz said:

RF - he had criticism thrown at him after a handful of sub appearances in an unnatural position. That’s not demonstrating no hope to me - it’s not even having the chance to settle.

Even in his second season - he had barely a chance to get up to speed. There is no need to judge players on limited minutes.

 

500k/5m/50m it doesn’t matter who they are or what they cost, all deserve a chance. For context too - 7m plus a standard wage over 3 / 4 years is still about 2 or 3 million less than what the Leon Best debacle cost us.

So as far as you are concerned, should a player thread not be opened until a player hits x number of starts?

People will judge a player on an ongoing basis, you mention the usage of him but that was a regular criticism of the manager rather than the player himself.

The financial side is all guestimates but using Leon Best as a benchmark is hardly productive! 

[Hasta]

1 hour ago, JBiz said:

RF - he had criticism thrown at him after a handful of sub appearances in an unnatural position. That’s not demonstrating no hope to me - it’s not even having the chance to settle.

Even in his second season - he had barely a chance to get up to speed. There is no need to judge players on limited minutes.

 

500k/5m/50m it doesn’t matter who they are or what they cost, all deserve a chance. For context too - 7m plus a standard wage over 3 / 4 years is still about 2 or 3 million less than what the Leon Best debacle cost us.

And Shearer had criticism when he signed because he wasn't Speedie and didn't do an awful lot in pre-season. That's what happens with a lot of players. They then have to get their chance and prove what they can do. 

Brereton had chances and didn't do that for two whole season. I've posted stats on this thread about how may of his appearances were 25minute+ appearances alongside his starts. It wasn't a string of 5 minute cameo's in which he consistently showed nothing.

And yet, whilst people grumbled in the stands to each other about being "a waste of money", he always received support from the Rovers following, so to suggest otherwise is ludicrous. It's going back to the poster who was basically saying "don't state your opinion on a message board if you don't think a player is very good". 

As for playing in an unnatural position, we thought he came in as a striker. There were calls to play him upfront with Dack or Armstrong in behind. There was quotes from inside Ewood about his finishing being superb in training. He simply doesn't have the touch, technique or instinct to play a goalscoring role. What we are now realising is that his strengths lie outside the penalty box, picking the ball up and driving at opposition. He's more of a Rothwell than an Armstrong, and playing him to his strengths is turning his career around at Ewood.  His intentional lack of balance is also proving to be another huge asset too ?

 

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Hasta

[JBiz]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

So as far as you are concerned, should a player thread not be opened until a player hits x number of starts?

People will judge a player on an ongoing basis, you mention the usage of him but that was a regular criticism of the manager rather than the player himself.

The financial side is all guestimates but using Leon Best as a benchmark is hardly productive! 

Why is it always black and white? just because I suggest someone shouldn’t be written off without a fair chance, doesn’t mean there is no room for discussion at all?

The financial aspect of Best is to show just how expensive wages and pay offs are - to show how criminally we’ve wasted millions. It makes that point that investing 7m in a 19 year old might cost you less than signing a ready made 28/29 year old for 3.5m. 
 

Also for productive input - if you search Kevin Davies BRFCS in google - most recent references to him are in this thread, most compare his price and impact - and that’s more than 20 years ago, in a league where the sponsorship money’s up by about 3000%.

[JBiz]

Just now, Hasta said:

Brereton had chances and didn't do that for two whole season. I've posted stats on this thread about how may of his appearances were 25minute+ appearances alongside is starts. It wasn't a string of 5 minute cameo's in which he consistently showed nothing.

And yet, whilst people grumbled in the stands to each other about being "a waste of money", he always received support from the Rovers following, so to suggest otherwise is ludicrous. It's going back to the poster who was basically saying "don't state your opinion on a message board if you don't think a player is very good". 

As for playing in an unnatural position, we thought he came in as a striker. There were calls to play him upfront with Dack or Armstrong in behind. There was quotes from inside Ewood about his finishing being superb in training.He simply doesn't have the touch, technique or instinct to play a goalscoring role. What we are now realising is that his strengths lie outside the penalty box, picking the ball up and driving at opposition. He's more of a Rothwell than an Armstrong, and playing him to his strengths is turning his career around at Ewood.  His intentional lack of balance is also proving to be another huge asset too ?

 

 

Is this fair Hasta? I mean what constitutes a fair crack at the whip? 25 minutes when we’re a goal down or chasing a game is that a fair justification of his potential and talent? Maybe for a Danny Graham with genuine expectation and past example of producing - but not so much a raw young striker in an unfamiliar position.

Also for someone supposedly without the touch or technique to be a goal scorer - I wouldn’t want to judge until he’s had a run playing upfront in the centre. Equally his goals (particularly one vs Watford) suggest there’s ample technique and an eye for goal we’ve still to see.

He’s had one solid run in the team and people think he looks a different player. This to me is just pure irony.