Ben Brereton Diaz

[chaddyrovers]

2 hours ago, Stuart said:

Lol. “Your football club”

You have said that you know what is in the contract every time someone has questioned it. Well let’s see it. Or maybe start to be a little less cocksure and maybe put in the odd “IMO” - particularly about Brereton’s contract.

I wish you were involved with Rovers, it’s be a scream. What would you prefer, marketing or recruitment?

player recruitment thanks

Mowbray, Waggott and Karanka comments are crystal clear

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

I wish people wouldnt keep resorting to this boring narrative of calling people negative, and to give people a chance and support them.

"Trust Tony" is not a valid shut down of any arguments either. Hes earnt plenty of trust but creating an environment whereby any opinions contrary to what he does, or any criticisms of any of the players, are not permitted, would make this messageboard very boring indeed.

I wish you would stop posting this rubbish. 

IMO, some people on here about Brereton have been a complete over reaction and ultra negative. You even have people saying he was poor yesterday. which is very untrue. 

[Stuart]

9 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

player recruitment thanks

Mowbray, Waggott and Karanka comments are crystal clear

Well, we’ll start with scouting and see where we go from there. Not sur me you are ready to negotiate with any agents.

If you are struggling to pdf it, let me know and I’ll message you my fax number.

[roversfan99]

11 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

player recruitment thanks

Mowbray, Waggott and Karanka comments are crystal clear

I wish you would stop posting this rubbish. 

IMO, some people on here about Brereton have been a complete over reaction and ultra negative. You even have people saying he was poor yesterday. which is very untrue. 

You've again missed my point which is that people should be able to comment on a messageboard freely without having shite like "stop being negative and trust Tony" shoved down their throat. Its an internet messageboard.

I think he did pretty well, same as you, but seemingly I'm not as arrogant to pass that off as a undeniable fact, like you have.

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

You've again missed my point which is that people should be able to comment on a messageboard freely without having shite like "stop being negative and trust Tony" shoved down their throat. Its an internet messageboard.

I think he did pretty well, same as you, but seemingly I'm not as arrogant to pass that off as a undeniable fact, like you have.

No I didn't missed the point at all. I understand the point  so stop repeating this rubbish. 

Managers and players all praised the subs impacts aswell as Mowbray said in his post match press conference

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, Stuart said:

 

If you are struggling to pdf it, let me know and I’ll message you my fax number.

Look at Mowbray., Waggott and Karanka comments about the Brereton deal and the terms but instead you cant be bothered and trying to be clever man which you arent

[Hasta]

18 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

player recruitment

IMO, some people on here about Brereton have been a complete over reaction and ultra negative. You even have people saying he was poor yesterday. which is very untrue. 

Firstly you can't say it was untrue as it's  an opinion, and one shared by a number of people.

I want Brereton to do well and I want him to score bagful of goals and be worth tons of money. However I feel we overpaid for what he has done so far in his career, and that he may well prove to be a decent striker and a goal scorer but he isn't a winger.

Some people think he might have done OK yesterday as he worked hard and didn't lose the ball every time. That may well be an improvement on his previous appearances.  However he didn't really do anything and Palmer / Rothwell / Travis could have been more suited for what he was asked to do.

Whether he is worth the money, time will tell, and we need to see what he can do in his preferred position. But, so far, he has been generally poor when used out of position , and as we have paid our biggest outlay in years on him, it's bound to draw attention. 

I don't think any of that is unfair or negative. Just my honest appraisal of the situation.

[Stuart]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

Look at Mowbray., Waggott and Karanka comments about the Brereton deal and the terms but instead you cant be bothered and trying to be clever man which you arent

None of them will say exactly what the deal is, what the actual figure is or how it breaks down. If your absolute confidence is due to what you have heard from some talking heads then you really don’t know anything at all so you can’t poo-pooh other’s opinions.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

35 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

player recruitment thanks

Mowbray, Waggott and Karanka comments are crystal clear

I wish you would stop posting this rubbish. 

IMO, some people on here about Brereton have been a complete over reaction and ultra negative. You even have people saying he was poor yesterday. which is very untrue. 

" Player recruitment " ? We'd have to double the size of the players car park first.

[Stuart]

30 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

IMO, some people on here about Brereton have been a complete over reaction and ultra negative. You even have people saying he was poor yesterday. which is very untrue. 

There were three posters who questioned his game yesterday. Trinidad Rovers was quite scathing, your nemesis R99 and JBN. The latter two were hardly ‘ultra negative’. You jumped on them straight away.

There is however “a complete over reaction” to anyone daring to question TM, his signings and tactics, or any of his players.

He certainly hasn’t hit the ground running and doesn’t yet look like a £7m player, let alone someone who needs to be worth £10m+ to recoup his value. He is still young but, by today’s standards, at that value he should be contributing more than he is.

I was actually suggesting - in his defence - that he may be being used deliberately not to his main strengths so as to lower the purchase price but you jumped on that too. And in doing so undermined your own argument because for £7m he does look a poor signing so far.

[roversfan99]

Just now, Stuart said:

There were three posters who questioned his game yesterday. Trinidad Rovers was quite scathing, your nemesis R99 and JBN. The latter two were hardly ‘ultra negative’. You jumped on them straight away.

There is however “a complete over reaction” to anyone daring to question TM, his signings and tactics, or any of his players.

He certainly hasn’t hit the ground running and doesn’t yet look like a £7m player, let alone someone who needs to be worth £10m+ to recoup his value. He is still young but, by today’s standards, at that value he should be contributing more than he is.

I was actually suggesting - in his defence - that he may be being used deliberately not to his main strengths so as to lower the purchase price but you jumped on that too. And in doing so undermined your own argument because for £7m he does look a poor signing so far.

I thought he was pretty good personally yesterday. I dont think he looks particularly good technically, and I think hes fighting a losing battle in that hes never a winger in a millon years. Bennett was often left 2 on 1 going backwards, and I dont recall him posing any threat to Peacock-Farrell at any point.

That being said, he showed good intelligence and game management at times in a way that has been totally absent in his game prior to yesterday. He got us up the pitch a few times, he won a few free kicks (he loves throwing himself over) and I came away much more optimistic about him.

My main point was regarding your second paragraph. "Stop being negative" and "Trust Tony" are not valid comebacks to anything said about Brereton, or indeed anyone else. All they do is shut down debate, which on a messageboard isnt ideal!

[Bigdoggsteel]

3 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

I wish people wouldnt keep resorting to this boring narrative of calling people negative, and to give people a chance and support them.

"Trust Tony" is not a valid shut down of any arguments either. Hes earnt plenty of trust but creating an environment whereby any opinions contrary to what he does, or any criticisms of any of the players, are not permitted, would make this messageboard very boring indeed.

What about when people say give the young lad time, do you hate that too? Numerous posts in the previous few pages with people saying they hope we have some way of wiggling out of the deal. Are they being negative? 

It works both ways. I'm all for discussion, but if some keep saying he is the new Kevin Davies, isn't up to it, hope it isn't actually a done deal in January etc, I reserve my right to call them negative. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

3 hours ago, Hasta said:

Opinion is split obviously about yesterday. Could you explain what you think my narrative on BB is?

You said he hasn't played well yet. I and many others, the majority I would say, think he did well yesterday. 

[rigger]

4 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

You said he hasn't played well yet. I and many others, the majority I would say, think he did well yesterday. 

Nobody near me in the Blackburn end seemed particularly impressed with him yesterday, I certainly wasn't.

[Hasta]

12 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

You said he hasn't played well yet. I and many others, the majority I would say, think he did well yesterday. 

That's my opinion. It's not a narrative. By narrative you are impling my opinion is being given to suit another agenda or story. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

7 minutes ago, Hasta said:

That's my opinion. It's not a narrative. By narrative you are impling my opinion is being given to suit another agenda or story. 

I can see it coming a mile away. Some will never warm to Brereton because of the price tag. 

[Riversider28]

33 minutes ago, rigger said:

Nobody near me in the Blackburn end seemed particularly impressed with him yesterday, I certainly wasn't.

Perhaps next time you should sit on the Riverside to get a better view. There were plenty on there who saw him play well, considering he was playing out of position. 

[Hasta]

29 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I can see it coming a mile away. Some will never warm to Brereton because of the price tag. 

That's more truthful from you, but inaccurate as far as I am concerned.

I'm the first to judge players after seeing what they do on a pitch. Look at my u-turn on the Downing signing last season - so much so I started a thread on opinions you had got wrong based on it. I supported Jason Roberts when other just criticised and even saw the good in Blake despite the criticism he received. I'd like to think I'm fully capable of judging players on what they do on the pitch, regardless of what they cost, who they sleep with, what parties they attend and what their wife says on twitter.

My opinion on Brereton so far is posted clearly above, but be rest assured I'll be the first to praise him when he shows his ability. 

There may well be people who never warm to him because of the price tag but I'm not one of them. There will also be those people who talk up his contributions in games as they can't be seen to accept Mowbray may have overspent on a limited player.

 

Edited October 21, 2018 by Hasta

[Bigdoggsteel]

4 minutes ago, Hasta said:

That's more truthful from you, but inaccurate as far as I am concerned.

I'm the first to judge players after seeing what they do on a pitch. Look at my u-turn on the Downing signing last season - so much so I started a thread on opinions you had got wrong based on it. I supported Jason Roberts when other just criticised and even saw the good in Blake despite the criticism he received. I'd like to think I'm fully capable of judging players on what they do on the pitch, regardless of what they cost, who they sleep with, what parties they attend and what their wife says on twitter.

My opinion on Brereton so far is posted clearly above, but be rest assured I'll be the first to praise him when he shows his ability. 

There may well be people who never warm to him because of the price tag but I'm not one of them. There will also be those people who talk up his contributions in games as they can't be seen to accept Mowbray may have overspent on a limited player.

 

Fair enough points in the first two paragraphs, but I think your last paragraph is unfair. I don't think those saying he did well yesterday are doing it from any point of syubberness to defend Mowbray, they just think he played well. Either way, it's far too early to judge definitively. Forrest fans are pretty unanimous that he isn't limited though. 

[Hasta]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Fair enough points in the first two paragraphs, but I think your last paragraph is unfair. I don't think those saying he did well yesterday are doing it from any point of syubberness to defend Mowbray, they just think he played well. Either way, it's far too early to judge definitively. Forrest fans are pretty unanimous that he isn't limited though. 

Lol. That's unfair  but  your posts on my fictional 'narrative' was fair ?

[OJRovers]

I guess it is the price you pay these days but how much is Armstrong worth now he's on a long contract if BB is worth £7m?

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

What about when people say give the young lad time, do you hate that too? Numerous posts in the previous few pages with people saying they hope we have some way of wiggling out of the deal. Are they being negative? 

It works both ways. I'm all for discussion, but if some keep saying he is the new Kevin Davies, isn't up to it, hope it isn't actually a done deal in January etc, I reserve my right to call them negative. 

Let me address your points individually:

Give the young lad time - I only dont like this when its used as a counter-argument to people commenting on for example a poor performance. Yes hes very much a long term project, but as with anyone, we judge players performances as they go, on a game by game basis. If people think hes not playing well, then they think hes not playing well. The vast majority are aware that he is only young and bare that in mind. But obviously age alone is not a reason to spend such a massive amount of money, he has to offer something now. (Which I feel he did yesterday)

Hope we have some way of wiggling out of the deal/that it isnt a done deal in January - That is constructive and a valid point, its clearly based on the assumption that the 7m can be spent on other players, and whether Ben Brereton was worth that amount or whether we should have spent it elsewhere. It has and always will be the big question because its such a big amount of money for us relative to spend in the last few years. 

The new Kevin Davies - I havent seen this used, but taking your word for it, I would agree that this is a lazy comparison based solely on price tag and reputation.

I reserve my right to call them negative - Absolutely. Its just not a constructive criticism, nor does it add anything to the debate. 

The reason that I imagine that it riles people is that Brereton and everyone else receives total backing in the stadium, this is a messageboard where we can give an honest opinion without it impacting on the team.

[roversfan99]

53 minutes ago, Hasta said:

That's more truthful from you, but inaccurate as far as I am concerned.

I'm the first to judge players after seeing what they do on a pitch. Look at my u-turn on the Downing signing last season - so much so I started a thread on opinions you had got wrong based on it. I supported Jason Roberts when other just criticised and even saw the good in Blake despite the criticism he received. I'd like to think I'm fully capable of judging players on what they do on the pitch, regardless of what they cost, who they sleep with, what parties they attend and what their wife says on twitter.

My opinion on Brereton so far is posted clearly above, but be rest assured I'll be the first to praise him when he shows his ability. 

There may well be people who never warm to him because of the price tag but I'm not one of them. There will also be those people who talk up his contributions in games as they can't be seen to accept Mowbray may have overspent on a limited player.

 

 

43 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Fair enough points in the first two paragraphs, but I think your last paragraph is unfair. I don't think those saying he did well yesterday are doing it from any point of syubberness to defend Mowbray, they just think he played well. Either way, it's far too early to judge definitively. Forrest fans are pretty unanimous that he isn't limited though. 

Theres no way that if Brereton started scoring goals and playing well, that people "wouldnt warm to him." The only reason that many arent convinced is because in his very limited cameos, one thing im keen to stress (limited game time), he has done nothing to suggest that he is going to stake a claim to be a regular in the side.

What I have seen from Forest fans online has not been unanimous I must say, been split positive and negative, but one thing that is massively different, as much as we may want to pretend it isnt, is that at Forest, he was one of quite a few players (Worrall, Burke etc) that came through the academy, and I have seen a lot about "giving youth a chance" so Brereton would have been a torch bearer for the clubs academy. Here, he is a 7 million signing after a number of years of incredibly limited spending. Therefore the expectations/background is totally different.

[Oldgregg86]

When at the ground he gets my full support. He may come good, he may not. Time will tell. I watched sessegnon at 18 years old playing premiership football yesterday as he has all season. Rooney played at 16, Wickham at 15. If he's good enough he would be starting. Going off what I have seen from him and Graham , ben has no chance of taking Danny's shirt anytime soon. The baffling thing about all this is why isn't he playing upfront when he comes on. The only way to get match fit is to play. The only way to build confidence and learn your role is to play in the position you where bought for and is your best position. I've seen , as other rovers fans and nearly all forest fans have that he isn't a winger. So until he plays up top and starts scoring the same questions will be asked over and over. It's ok saying we have bought potential it's how he is being managed that's baffling me. I'm sure Tony has a master plan and I will look stupid down the line but I just can't work out why he spent so much on a player that doesn't start or play in the position he was bought for, what is he protecting him from , what does he have to learn to get a start and how can he learn if he never plays in his best position

Edited October 21, 2018 by Oldgregg86

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

1 minute ago, Oldgregg86 said:

When at the ground he gets my full support. He may come good, he may not. Time will tell. I watched sessegnon at 18 years old playing premiership football yesterday as he has all season. Rooney played at 16, Wickham at 15. If he's good enough he would be starting. Going off what I have seen from him and Graham , ben has no chance of taking Danny's shirt anytime soon. The baffling thing about all this is why isn't he playing upfront when he comes on. The only way to get match fit is to play. The only way to build confidence and learn your role is to play in the position you where bought for and is your best position. I've seen , as other rovers fans and nearly all forest fans have that he isn't a winger. So until he plays up top and starts scoring the same questions will be asked over and over. It's ok saying we have bought potential it's how he is being managed that's baffling me. I'm sure Tony has a master plan and I will look stupid down the line but I just can't work out why he spent so much on a player that doesn't start or play in the position he was bought for, what is he protecting him from , what does he have to learn to get a start and how can he learn if he never plays in his best position

That's more or less my view also. If he was a kid coming out of our youth system nobody would be expecting him to take games by the scruff of the neck. We wouldn't be too bothered if he was coming on for the last 20 minutes in games. The problem is he isn't just one of our kids,  he's the player we've spent the most money on since the Rhodes era by a long, long way. With that fee comes expectations wether people like it or not.

Big fees bring big pressures. Even the great Jimmy Greaves insisted on having his transfer fee set at £99,990 because he didn't want to be known as the first £100,000 player.

[jim mk2]

It's clear Brereton - whether he has potential or not - was a bad buy at this stage when we are in far greater need of players who can make an instant difference to the team such as a big centre back, a good winger and a proper centre forward to help Graham. Unless he suddenly starts to blossom Brereton is a luxury we cannot afford.