Ben Brereton Diaz

[chaddyrovers]

35 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Of course it is a factor! And it will be a factor for most so youre going to have to get used to it! When it comes to picking a team, obviously it is irrelevant. Hence why free agent Graham is first choice. But in regards to judging him as an individual, and his success/failure of a signing? Of course it is, and thats why hes attracting far more debate than anyone else. Hes a massive financial signing for our club. Hes not a youth player or a free agent whereby theres no massive loss if he doesnt work out, hes a massive chunk of our recent financial spending all on his shoulders. Of course he is young and people appreciate that but the price IS something that will always be with him, whether you like it or not.

Whether he will "start scoring" is open to debate due to his goal record, but I agree that he needs to play in his correct position, if at all (not at the moment with Graham far and away our number 1 striker) which is why Mowbray has received a lot of deserved criticism in regards to using him wide. I've seen far more criticism for Mowbray playing him wide in the last week or so, over people directly criticising Brereton and his lack of threat.

He was asked directly about Brereton, its hardly unique honesty by answering that question. 

I agree with @JHRover on the point that the fee should NOT be a factor in judging a player. Judging a player should be solely based on his performances on the pitches and nothing else. We should be expecting the same from any player despite of any fee involved. 

He didn't have to answer the question and said its none of their business. Mowbray open and honest approach is something that set his aside from most managers in modern football. 

massive financial signing for our club but is that's for us to judge and surely we should judge Mowbray and his recruitment staff on that NOT the player? 

28 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Of course it is part of the discussion when judging the impact of a new signing.

If he had come through the ranks or cost say £500k he would be given much more leeway.

Where I would concede is that this is not Brereton’s fault that some idiot spent £7m on him but by your logic he should not be feeling any pressure or expectation due to the fee anyway. That said, if he was currently playing without that pressure then I would be even more concerned.

surely every player should be based on performances on the pitch not the fee involved? 

 

 

 

12 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I do think that the 2 sort of go hand in hand. Yes, the main judgement would be, should Mowbray have spent that sort of money on Brereton based on his success/failure has time goes on, bu

Obviously, it is not Breretons fault how much we paid for him, but when he costs as much as he did, relative to how much we have spent otherwise in the last 5 years, then he automatically has to then take on some additional pressure.

I am not reaching any conclusions, and it is obvious that it is a long term project. But for that sort of money, with over a season of regular Championship football under his belt, he has to be able to contribute now.

Something that Stuart touches on below, there is a difference on expectation based on price tag, which is why people dismissing it as relevant are incorrect. I think a good example is Joe Nuttall, an academy free signing who has fallen away from the first team.

If that happened to Brereton in the same way, not that I am saying that will happen, but there would rightfully be far more of an inquest in to how that has allowed to happen.

Likewise, with Davenport, he is a young lad but he cost a couple of hundred grand and has less experience. He has been injured up to now and hasnt barely been mentioned. If that was Brereton still awaiting his debut, people would be far more desperate to see him return.

 

They should be no more pressure on him cos the fee and its had nothing to with him. The pressure should be on Mowbray, Stuart Harvey and Steve Waggott surely? 

sorry but it is not incorrect to dismiss the fee involved. surely we should have the same expectation on every signing? 

Nuttall isn't even playing for the under 23's at the moment, so I can only think he is injured. 

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

I agree with @JHRover on the point that the fee should NOT be a factor in judging a player. Judging a player should be solely based on his performances on the pitches and nothing else. We should be expecting the same from any player despite of any fee involved. 

He didn't have to answer the question and said its none of their business. Mowbray open and honest approach is something that set his aside from most managers in modern football. 

massive financial signing for our club but is that's for us to judge and surely we should judge Mowbray and his recruitment staff on that NOT the player? 

surely every player should be based on performances on the pitch not the fee involved? 

 

 

 

They should be no more pressure on him cos the fee and its had nothing to with him. The pressure should be on Mowbray, Stuart Harvey and Steve Waggott surely? 

sorry but it is not incorrect to dismiss the fee involved. surely we should have the same expectation on every signing? 

Nuttall isn't even playing for the under 23's at the moment, so I can only think he is injured. 

 

You want to tell that to the UTD fans who are less than impressed with Pogba. Of course the £90 million fee will have nothing to do with that either. Do you really believe what you post ?

[47er]

9 hours ago, dingles staying down 4ever said:

That would be Christain Dailly but even he was better than Darren Peacock who'd arrived in the summer.

Actually thinking about Dailly was a converted Scottish midfielder who became a Centre Half. So thats another player cast in the reboot.

At least Peacock was free!

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, 47er said:

At least Peacock was free!

And we were still robbed !

[47er]

Chaddy, too much of the same, you don't have to reply to every post!

Edited October 25, 2018 by 47er

[47er]

When Brereton starts, plays well and scores a worldie we will all breathe a sigh of relief!

[Stuart]

14 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

surely every player should be based on performances on the pitch not the fee involved? 

Only if you also believe that Northcote and The Chippery should be judged equally.

If you pay more for something then your expectation of the quality increases. If an expensive restaurant served something that you could expect to get in a chip shop, would you be impressed? Or would you feel short changed? The line isn’t the same for both.

Likewise with players. Expectations rise with the price tag. It might not seem fair but that’s life. Value for money is important. Unless you are a club like Man City, you can’t afford a £7m mistake and the price tag makes the investment higher and risk greater so we need to sell Brereton for £10m to recoup our costs. Conversely Dack has already paid back his fee and will hopefully make us a tidy return - unless we gave Gillingham so huge sell on. There is no getting away from fees in football. As much as we’d like to it’d be naive to pretend that a huge transfer fee doesn’t raise expectations.

[chaddyrovers]

12 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

You want to tell that to the UTD fans who are less than impressed with Pogba. Of course the £90 million fee will have nothing to do with that either. Do you really believe what you post ?

I would the reasons why Pogba isn't performing good enough is down to number of factors like Mourinho style of play and attitude towards the players, Pogba's attitude towards Mourinho, Pogba's agent, his role in the team. 

 

[Stuart]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

I would the reasons why Pogba isn't performing good enough is down to number of factors like Mourinho style of play and attitude towards the players, Pogba's attitude towards Mourinho, Pogba's agent, his role in the team. 

 

So Brereton’s failure is down to Mowbray’s style of play and attitude, his own attitude and his role in the team. And his agent. Interesting.

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, Stuart said:

Only if you also believe that Northcote and The Chippery should be judged equally.

If you pay more for something then your expectation of the quality increases. If an expensive restaurant served something that you could expect to get in a chip shop, would you be impressed? Or would you feel short changed? The line isn’t the same for both.

Likewise with players. Expectations rise with the price tag. It might not seem fair but that’s life. Value for money is important. Unless you are a club like Man City, you can’t afford a £7m mistake and the price tag makes the investment higher and risk greater so we need to sell Brereton for £10m to recoup our costs. Conversely Dack has already paid back his fee and will hopefully make us a tidy return - unless we gave Gillingham so huge sell on. There is no getting away from fees in football. As much as we’d like to it’d be naive to pretend that a huge transfer fee doesn’t raise expectations.

I have never been to either restaurants/place so I couldn't even comment. I don't even know what the Chippery is. Never fancied Northcote or that type of food tbh. 

I wouldn't go to an expensive restaurant at all. Not my style. Clearly that's your style. I loved to going to Shajan's or Smokehouse 138 or Griffins head bar and grill, and Thatch and Thistle. apart from that I enjoying my own meals at home.

But from any food place I expect high standard and food cook properly despite of the price 

 

[chaddyrovers]

7 minutes ago, Stuart said:

So Brereton’s failure is down to Mowbray’s style of play and attitude, his own attitude and his role in the team. And his agent. Interesting.

did I said Brereton? no stop stirring the pot Stuart again. You always been the same on here. No point having a debate with that type of person

[47er]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

I have never been to either restaurants/place so I couldn't even comment. I don't even know what the Chippery is. Never fancied Northcote or that type of food tbh. 

I wouldn't go to an expensive restaurant at all. Not my style. Clearly that's your style. I loved to going to Shajan's or Smokehouse 138 or Griffins head bar and grill, and Thatch and Thistle. apart from that I enjoying my own meals at home.

But from any food place I expect high standard and food cook properly despite of the price 

 

Possibly missing the point here....?

[JacknOry]

I am open and honest to admit that if I read open and honest again that I am going to top myself.

Fees do not matter? Seriously Chaddy, (yes i am stalking you again) but if Madrid go and sign Kane for 200 million and he flops, do you not think that the fee would be part of the equation? If Madrid then signed some promising young Brazilian kid that then took the league by storm for just 200k, do you not think that his low fee would ever be mentioned?

Difference is that prior to this season in the last, what is it, five years? we have barely had a net spend of a million and even that was in league 1 when we finally did break it - that we are now not allowed to discuss a transfer that could cost as much as 7 million?

Stop telling people what they can and cannot talk about - this is a messageboard. We signed a player for seven million quid and he has looked no better than Nuttal who we signed for peanuts. Do we care if Nuttal turns out crap? N because he cost nothing, do we care if Brereton turns out crap? Yes because we could have spent that 7 million quid far better.

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, 47er said:

At least Peacock was free!

Which means we should've free'd him pretty quickly.....

He was actually still a physical solid ball winner but he was Murphyesqe.... legs all but gone.

[unsall]

12 minutes ago, JacknOry said:

I am open and honest to admit that if I read open and honest again that I am going to top myself.

Fees do not matter? Seriously Chaddy, (yes i am stalking you again) but if Madrid go and sign Kane for 200 million and he flops, do you not think that the fee would be part of the equation? If Madrid then signed some promising young Brazilian kid that then took the league by storm for just 200k, do you not think that his low fee would ever be mentioned?

Difference is that prior to this season in the last, what is it, five years? we have barely had a net spend of a million and even that was in league 1 when we finally did break it - that we are now not allowed to discuss a transfer that could cost as much as 7 million?

Stop telling people what they can and cannot talk about - this is a messageboard. We signed a player for seven million quid and he has looked no better than Nuttal who we signed for peanuts. Do we care if Nuttal turns out crap? N because he cost nothing, do we care if Brereton turns out crap? Yes because we could have spent that 7 million quid far better.

Don’t talk rubbish, obviously it’s a lot to spend for a club like us, but you can sign a world beater on a free who’s run down his contract but wants £50,000 a week and if he turns out rubbish what do you say, oh it doesn’t matter he was free, I like to think I can tell a decent footballer but I wouldn’t even think I know more than Mowbray and his coaches, who have identified him as a big asset to Rovers regardless of his fee, the lad has to get used to the club, training, fitness, systems etc just like the other new signings, he’s not a Danny Graham, who btw this time last year some were slagging him off, he’s part of a front 3 like Mowbray has said, if we played 2 up top he could play there,but if we play 1 up, like we normally do, with Dack in the hole he has to play either left or right, similar to Armstrong who destroyed Leeds in the first half, give the lad a chance, a lot of Forrest fans were saying potentially he was worth a lot more than what we paid, it was widely publicised that Man U or Tottenham were going to pay 12 mil for him, after that game against Arsenal, too early to make any judgement yet, but the last two appearances he does look like he can dribble and is pretty fast, and as for saying he’s no better than Nuttall,that is silly, the big problem for Rovers is not paying the transfer fee but silly wages which has got us in trouble before, and I personally don’t blame them for keeping the wages sensible, I know for a fact that Marriott was first choice but his wages were unbelievable, the lads only 19 and like some sensible posters have said, it’s not his problem how much he cost, I do think he will come good time will tell.

[roversfan99]

2 minutes ago, unsall said:

Don’t talk rubbish, obviously it’s a lot to spend for a club like us, but you can sign a world beater on a free who’s run down his contract but wants £50,000 a week and if he turns out rubbish what do you say, oh it doesn’t matter he was free, I like to think I can tell a decent footballer but I wouldn’t even think I know more than Mowbray and his coaches, who have identified him as a big asset to Rovers regardless of his fee, the lad has to get used to the club, training, fitness, systems etc just like the other new signings, he’s not a Danny Graham, who btw this time last year some were slagging him off, he’s part of a front 3 like Mowbray has said, if we played 2 up top he could play there,but if we play 1 up, like we normally do, with Dack in the hole he has to play either left or right, similar to Armstrong who destroyed Leeds in the first half, give the lad a chance, a lot of Forrest fans were saying potentially he was worth a lot more than what we paid, it was widely publicised that Man U or Tottenham were going to pay 12 mil for him, after that game against Arsenal, too early to make any judgement yet, but the last two appearances he does look like he can dribble and is pretty fast, and as for saying he’s no better than Nuttall,that is silly, the big problem for Rovers is not paying the transfer fee but silly wages which has got us in trouble before, and I personally don’t blame them for keeping the wages sensible, I know for a fact that Marriott was first choice but his wages were unbelievable, the lads only 19 and like some sensible posters have said, it’s not his problem how much he cost, I do think he will come good time will tell.

- You are right on wages. Just as if Brereton cost 7m and is judged accordingly, weve had many players on high wages that have been criticised for not providing value for money. The transfer fee we pay for someone, and the wages they are on, do influence determining whether someone is a success.

- No one thinks that they know better than Mowbray. Its a commonly used, stupid statement to make. We are all entitled to our opinions, hence the purpose of the messageboard, and obviously Mowbray is not always right. 

- Im not sure its fair to judge his potential on tenious newspaper links. Im not at all convinced that Man United or Tottenhan ever seriously looked at him.

- Forest fans were also pretty insistent that Brereton is not capable of playing a wide role effectively. And was much more effective central, and Forest only played 1 up front. 

- How do you know "for a fact" that Marriott was first choice?

[chaddyrovers]

6 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

 

- Im not sure its fair to judge his potential on tenious newspaper links. Im not at all convinced that Man United or Tottenhan ever seriously looked at him.

- Forest fans were also pretty insistent that Brereton is not capable of playing a wide role effectively. And was much more effective central, and Forest only played 1 up front. 

- How do you know "for a fact" that Marriott was first choice?

How do you know that Man Utd or Spurs didnt look at him properly? Liverpool were interest aswell I believe. 

You use the Forest fans opinions but not Ipswich fans opinions on McCarthy. Wonder why? Double standards. 

Maybe cos he knows people on the recruitment or coaching staff. People do have connections you dont. 

[roversfan99]

9 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

How do you know that Man Utd or Spurs didnt look at him properly? Liverpool were interest aswell I believe. 

You use the Forest fans opinions but not Ipswich fans opinions on McCarthy. Wonder why? Double standards. 

Maybe cos he knows people on the recruitment or coaching staff. People do have connections you dont. 

To point 1 and 3, Im not one for newspaper tittle tattle. Nor am I one to believe vague rumours. May be true, may be a load of rubbish. If any of them teams wanted him with any seriousness then he wouldnt be our player.

I answered your second query earlier, the main things I took from what the Forest fans said were regarding his style of play, notably that he is incapable of playing wide. That said, my own opinion of him is based on what I see from my own eyes. His inability to play wide that I have seen is backed up by Forest fans.

The 2 situations are totally incomparable. Ipswich fans dislike McCarthy personally, that being said any of them with any sense would have him back in a heartbeat. I am aware of their opinions, I just strongly disagree with them. I also disagree with you on the matter and we have been over it at length so lets draw a line under it.

 

[Stuart]

8 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

I have never been to either restaurants/place so I couldn't even comment. I don't even know what the Chippery is. Never fancied Northcote or that type of food tbh. 

I wouldn't go to an expensive restaurant at all. Not my style. Clearly that's your style. I loved to going to Shajan's or Smokehouse 138 or Griffins head bar and grill, and Thatch and Thistle. apart from that I enjoying my own meals at home.

But from any food place I expect high standard and food cook properly despite of the price 

 

Wooosh!

8 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

did I said Brereton? no stop stirring the pot Stuart again. You always been the same on here. No point having a debate with that type of person

Wooosh!

If it weren’t so sad it’d be funny.  

And you used the word ‘clearly’ when in truth it couldn’t be any more opaque.

[Stuart]

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/17008496.tony-mowbray-on-whether-he-feels-rovers-are-a-striker-short/?ref=mac

Well, there you have it. We are a striker short but we play a £7m striker out wide.

Surely he should have mentioned our lack of width meaning we need to use players like Brereton and Armstrong, and even Reid, there?

Or does he really see Brereton as a wide man? In which case we could have got better for less cash.

[perthblue02]

8 minutes ago, Stuart said:

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/17008496.tony-mowbray-on-whether-he-feels-rovers-are-a-striker-short/?ref=mac

Well, there you have it. We are a striker short but we play a £7m striker out wide.

Surely he should have mentioned our lack of width meaning we need to use players like Brereton and Armstrong, and even Reid, there?

Or does he really see Brereton as a wide man? In which case we could have got better for less cash.

More importantly would Brereton prefer Northcote or Shajan's.

 

[dingles staying down 4ever]

15 minutes ago, Stuart said:

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/17008496.tony-mowbray-on-whether-he-feels-rovers-are-a-striker-short/?ref=mac

Well, there you have it. We are a striker short but we play a £7m striker out wide.

Surely he should have mentioned our lack of width meaning we need to use players like Brereton and Armstrong, and even Reid, there?

Or does he really see Brereton as a wide man? In which case we could have got better for less cash.

Sad to say but it looked like Samuel was the man who was earmarked to be Graham's replacement in Mowbray's plans.

We all know Mowbray like's his width to come from forwards who can cut in on one side with a more defensive type midfielder on the other. So once Nyambe is fit, Bennett will move back into a wide position, Reid will go back to the bench or might displace Smallwood with Armstrong remaining on the other wing

Edited October 26, 2018 by dingles staying down 4ever

[dingles staying down 4ever]

4 minutes ago, perthblue02 said:

More importantly would Brereton prefer Northcote or Shajan's.

 

A good curry might do him the power of good

[chaddyrovers]

Mowbray on Brereton when he signed here including his role within the side, the price, not putting too much pressure on him. From the LT article. 

Tony Mowbray is keen not to burden Ben Brereton with too much expectation after the 19-year-old secured his move to Rovers.

But the boss is excited to work with the England Under-19 international who arrives initially on loan from Nottingham Forest.

That will be made permanent in January, with the fee in the region of £6m-£7m.

Mowbray felt the opportunity to sign Brereton, who has eight goals in 53 Championship games, was too good to turn down, having pursued him for much of the month.

The boss said: “I’m just trying to add quality.

“He’s 19-years-old, I’m conscious of not overplaying him. He’s a young guy with lots of good attributes, he’s fast, can run with the ball, play off both feet, he can dribble, and hopefully he’s going to score and create goals for us and be another string to our bow.

“The price for me is really irrelevant. I know it’s not for the bigger picture for the football club but I’m just trying to add the right quality to the team that’s going to help us and make us stronger, more creative, offensive and creating more chances.

“I think it's just too good an opportunity for us to turn down. We had the money to spend and when you've got it, let's spend it.

“Let's forget about the price now and concentrate on the player. He's a 19-year-old boy. We're not going to burden him and expect him to win games on his own.

“Let's be excited about him coming, but let's not burden him with a huge expectation, because he's 19.

“There will be games where he doesn't start and has to affect the game off the bench. There'll be other games where we have to hope he can make the difference in the game.

“Let's just give him time to settle in to our club, to get to know the lads, to move to a new area, to find accommodation and not over-burden him with expectation too early.”

Brereton, at 6’3 is able to play across the frontline, but revealed his favoured role is playing down the middle.

Mowbray often uses what he describes as ‘wide strikers’, a role Brereton has done in the past, and one Mowbray could look to utilise him in again.

But his versatility will be useful to Rovers, as the boss weighs up his options for the season ahead.

“I’ve told him that. His preference would be to play down the middle, but so would Adam Armstrong’s,” Mowbray added.

“He played most of last season on the left wing for me and scored goals from that position.

“Mo Salah plays on the right wing for Liverpool and scored 40 goals last season.

“Wide strikers, I wouldn’t say they’re going to be right wingers or left wingers. A number nine or wide striker? We’ll see what the opposition do and play to our strengths against the weakness of the opposition.

“As long as the players understand that, an Adam or a Ben, that at times we might play them not necessarily where they want to play, if it benefits the team that’s what we’ll do.”

 

     57

[JacknOry]

8 hours ago, unsall said:

Don’t talk rubbish, obviously it’s a lot to spend for a club like us, but you can sign a world beater on a free who’s run down his contract but wants £50,000 a week and if he turns out rubbish what do you say, oh it doesn’t matter he was free, I like to think I can tell a decent footballer but I wouldn’t even think I know more than Mowbray and his coaches, who have identified him as a big asset to Rovers regardless of his fee, the lad has to get used to the club, training, fitness, systems etc just like the other new signings, he’s not a Danny Graham, who btw this time last year some were slagging him off, he’s part of a front 3 like Mowbray has said, if we played 2 up top he could play there,but if we play 1 up, like we normally do, with Dack in the hole he has to play either left or right, similar to Armstrong who destroyed Leeds in the first half, give the lad a chance, a lot of Forrest fans were saying potentially he was worth a lot more than what we paid, it was widely publicised that Man U or Tottenham were going to pay 12 mil for him, after that game against Arsenal, too early to make any judgement yet, but the last two appearances he does look like he can dribble and is pretty fast, and as for saying he’s no better than Nuttall,that is silly, the big problem for Rovers is not paying the transfer fee but silly wages which has got us in trouble before, and I personally don’t blame them for keeping the wages sensible, I know for a fact that Marriott was first choice but his wages were unbelievable, the lads only 19 and like some sensible posters have said, it’s not his problem how much he cost, I do think he will come good time will tell.

A paragraph here and there would have made that far easier to read.

So its rubbish? Of course the contract comes into play as well - the whole value of the transfer comes into play. A freebie on 5k per week who turns out crap - nobody will care. Any expensive signing or player on large wages will have that taken into consideration if they are crap and it becomes a big deal as it is big money wasted by the club.

Chaddy was the one leading the slagging towards Graham at the start of last season so ask your mate about that one. 

I have not even commented on Brereton and actually agree that he has not had the proper chance to show his true worth yet and will need time in his preferred position. My post was purely about Chaddy saying that transfer fees do not matter when it comes to judging the success of a transfer - which it obviously does.

Using Nuttall was an extreme example rather than me saying he was actually better, though in fairness, as of yet I have not seen to much to suggest that this is incorrect as of yet. Once we get to see him upfront playing as a striker like he is meant to be - we can get a better opinion on him.