Ben Brereton Diaz

[SBlue]

Just now, Ewood Ace said:

Since last June the following have all moved for £7 Million or less. Norwich got Pukki on a free. Brentford got Maupay for £1.5 Million. Leeds got Bamford for £7 Million. Forest got Grabban for £6 Million. Brentford also signed Watkins for around £2 Million. I'd also be surprised if you couldn't get someone like Lucas Joao for £7 million or less. I'd also suggest that £7 Million would very much tempt Preston for Robinson or Birmingham for Adams.

Bamford wouldn’t come here, and I would imagine would be on a pretty penny.

Zero ROI on Grabban, and he’s a dickhead.

Pukki and Maupay are Dack-level masterstrokes.

Joao is cack.

And the rest would be on the bench behind Graham, which is the point of the discussion.

Agree to disagree I suppose, but I genuinely don’t see how BB can be seen as a bad investment yet.

[chaddyrovers]

1 hour ago, Franky said:

I heard yesterday that Ben was from the C list after no A or B targets could be secured. I also heard we are after Sam Vokes.

Vokes is 28/29 years old. Thought Adams is a good player and would fit Rovers model and Mowbray vision for this team going forward. As would Gallagher IMO. 

Did he say who target A or B was?

2 hours ago, Gavlar Somerset Rover! said:

Getting fed up with those on here moaning about ‘Ben bashing’ or whatever they’re calling it. It’s been said a million times over already, so it really shouldn’t need saying again, but it’s not what this is about. It’s because we have so many glaring weaknesses in our team that we shouldn’t have shelled out £7 million on potential. That’s the crux of it. If we had a bottomless pit I’m sure we’d all be thrilled with bringing in a young lad who could one day make a name for himself. As it stands, and at no fault of Ben’s, this is looking to be a very baffling and costly signing.

So why keep posting it about it in The Brereton thread then its not about him?

42 minutes ago, Biz said:

I don’t think it’s that easy B.B. For example, did Britt Assombalonga sign for a championship team because they offered more wages than Burnley offered him?

I don’t think we are in a position to offer huge wages AND 7m for someone, and the Bamford’s/Assombolonga’s who are proven at this level cost that and the weekly wage.

Gestede would be a shout for me as that target man— but realistically he’s probably too highly paid after stints in the prem with villa and Boro.

Mowbray and Waggott have said we don't pay high wages. 

Gestede wouldn't be shout due to high wages and plenty of injuries. 

Gallagher would be my choice. 

[JBiz]

1 minute ago, blueboy3333 said:

Straw man. I didn't do that. I just said we'd paid £7m for a lad to sit on the bench. If you think that's normal in the Championship in 2018 then it probably explains your standpoint. You're wrong, but you're entitled to your opinion?

You said “record signing” which is neither true or relevant hence the point about comparing the cost to other records; Cole (15 years) or Rhodes (5 years).

I think it’s stupid to suggest players are poor without giving them more than a handful of appearances, or poor on the basis they’re 19 and behind two others in a squad like Graham and Armstrong - but you’re welcome to your opinion.

[SBlue]

This is the point where someone should say something offensive about “The PlayStation Generation”, “Champ Manager”, limited attention spans and instant gratification.

I reckon BB will be banging them in, and I like the fact we’ve signed one of the best youngsters in the league - but I understand why people are wary or initially deflated.

[chaddyrovers]

7 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

Since last June the following have all moved for £7 Million or less. Norwich got Pukki on a free. Brentford got Maupay for £1.5 Million. Leeds got Bamford for £7 Million. Forest got Grabban for £6 Million. Brentford also signed Watkins for around £2 Million. I'd also be surprised if you couldn't get someone like Lucas Joao for £7 million or less. I'd also suggest that £7 Million would very much tempt Preston for Robinson or Birmingham for Adams. And even you couldn't get someone for £7 Million that still doesn't make Brereton worth it.

Didn't Watkins and Maupay sign for Brentford before this season and in the summer 2017. 

Grabban's wages would be the problem and plus 30k a week. we don't pay those wages. 

Wasn't Waghorn a target for Mowbray before he went to Derby. Possible Bamford was aswell. 

Isnt Callum Robinson a left winger not a striker? played wide for Preston. 

Agreed on Adams. Good player

[Ewood Ace]

Just now, S8 & Blue said:

Bamford wouldn’t come here, and I would imagine would be on a pretty penny.

Zero ROI on Grabban, and he’s a dickhead.

Pukki and Maupay are Dack-level masterstrokes.

Joao is cack.

And the rest would be on the bench behind Graham, which is the point of the discussion.

Agree to disagree I suppose, but I genuinely don’t see how BB can be seen as a bad investment yet.

If I told you at the start of the season that we would spend £7 million on a striker and by the middle of December he wouldn't have started a game or scored a goal, I'm sure you would have said that he has been a poor signing. We aren't Man City where we can afford to sign a young lad for big money and hope to develop him we are a newly promoted club and have spent not far of a club record fee on someone who isn't up to standard now but we hope might develop in a year or two's time.

As for Pukki and Muapay being masterstrokes we are never going to sign those sort of players because we don't look into the foreign market. Over the last few years there have been some good strikers brought in from France in particular Kodja, Maupay and Diedhiou all for what they cost from France offered much more value than £7 Million for Brereton.

If Joao is 'cack' what does that make Brereton as Joao is a much better striker than him.

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, Biz said:

You know what’s equally as frustrating and leads to me getting fed up? The idea that buying players is akin to a supermarket... 

How much would you sell Lenihan or Nyambe for? Take that figure and double it for any similar aged but prem experienced players.

Then look at someone like Graham, and find an effective similar replacement on reasonable wages under 25.

What would be the cost of a lightning quick and quality final ball winger to be established in this division?

All those “glaring” weaknesses aren’t going to be covered by 7m.

Hopegully, if we do sign more players, particuularly younger- they’ll be given more time than Brererton has been, before they’re labelled a “baffling clanger”

If your primary argument is that its difficult to sign players at reasonable players full stop then surely all signings and all managers are exempt from judgement when they make a signing?

Just to prove that there are reasonably priced players that could have improved us in various areas where we could have done with reinforcements, here are some other Championship transfers from the summer. I have excluded some loans that I felt were unrealistic (, and I am not saying that ALL these players were necessarily attainable, or that all of them would have proved to be clever acquisitions. Prices taken from transfermarkt:

RB - Moses Odubajo (Brentford, free), Jack Hunt (Bristol City, 1.5m)

CB - Kyle Bartley (Swansea, 4m), Jordan Storey (PNE, 750k), Ezri Konza (Brentford, 2.5m), John Egan (Sheff Utd, 4m), Adam Webster (Bristol City, 3.6m), Tamas Kalas (Bristol City, loan), Michael Hector (Sheffield United, loan), Michael Hefele (Forest, 300k), Reece Burke (Hull, 1.5m)

LB - Connor Townsend (WBA, 750k), Jay DaSilva (Bristol City, loan), Barry Douglas (Leeds, 3m), Jack Robinson (QPR, free)

RW - Barrie McKay (Swansea, 500k), Florian Jozefzoon (Derby, 2.8m), Duane Holmes (Derby, 750k), Brandon Barker (PNE, loan), Said Benrahma (Brentford, 1.5m), Gwoin Edwards (Ipswich, 700k), Jack Harrison (Leeds, loan)

ST - Jack Marriott (Derby, 3m), Martyn Waghorn (Derby, 5m), David McGoldrick (Sheff Utd, free), Andreas Weimann (Bristol City, 2m), Teemu Pukki (Norwich, free), Nakhi Wells (QPR, loan), Lewis Grabban (Forest, 6m), Josh Windass (Wigan, 2m)

Just wanted to dispel any myths that 7m isnt a hell of a lot of money to spend at this money.

 

29 minutes ago, S8 & Blue said:

Good business doesn’t always mean instant gratification.

Anyone finding it criminal or careless that we haven’t got a playoff squad yet in every position are proving how far we’ve come in a short space of time.

I expect by the end of the year BB will be ample back up and pushing DG for a starting place.

Graham is one of the best in the league. Brereton is 19.

I just don’t get why people are so keen to write him off yet.

 

No one has said that. You are exaggerating and twisting a genuine argument that we could have improved other areas or spent the money much more efficiently at this stage of the teams development to something totally ridiculous.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Gestede has run into injury issues, not for me. 

[Ewood Ace]

6 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Didn't Watkins and Maupay sign for Brentford before this season and in the summer 2017. 

That's why is said last June and not this June. The market hasn't changed that much in the last year for Championship clubs players of that value are still out there.

[roversfan99]

12 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Vokes is 28/29 years old. Thought Adams is a good player and would fit Rovers model and Mowbray vision for this team going forward. As would Gallagher IMO. 

Did he say who target A or B was?

So why keep posting it about it in The Brereton thread then its not about him?

Mowbray and Waggott have said we don't pay high wages. 

Gestede wouldn't be shout due to high wages and plenty of injuries. 

Gallagher would be my choice. 

You keep talking about this vision but ive not seen any tangible signs that we are working towards a new playing style.

We play long ball football (most in the league) and have shown no signs in terms of playing style of slowly filtering in any

Please can you explain exactly what you mean by Mowbrays vision?

The reason that @Gavlar Somerset Rover! presumably posted that is that Brereton is not only a player in his own right, but a player who cost such a big fee that people may argue that could have been utilised in better ways.

Gallagher is unable to hold the ball up so wouldnt be adequate in terms of an alternative to Graham. If we are going to change style then we may aswell pursue with our 7m signing.

[SBlue]

Yeah I concede I’m being a bit of a dick about it.

I like the fact we have invested in someone who I think will go on to prove his worth, and I suspect those kind of investments are the only type that will get the green light from the Venks.

Lashing out at some reasoned arguments regarding the squad because I’m sick of seeing the lad written off - I’ll leave it now and just hope in time I’m proved right.

 

 

(I always am ?)

[Ewood Ace]

6 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

You keep talking about this vision but ive not seen any tangible signs that we are working towards a new playing style.

We play long ball football (most in the league) and have shown no signs in terms of playing style of slowly filtering in any

Please can you explain exactly what you mean by Mowbrays vision?

The reason that @Gavlar Somerset Rover! presumably posted that is that Brereton is not only a player in his own right, but a player who cost such a big fee that people may argue that could have been utilised in better ways.

Gallagher is unable to hold the ball up so wouldnt be adequate in terms of an alternative to Graham. If we are going to change style then we may aswell pursue with our 7m signing.

There won't be any change in the way we play until Smallwood and Evans are split up by Reed in the centre of midfield, Rothwell is given a run and some proper wingers are signed. At the moment there is no sign of Evans and Smallwood being split up or Rothwell playing or playing some proper wingers. So we are stuck with out of position wingers meaning we have no width and two centre midfielders that won't or can't pass or move forward.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Ewood Ace

[chaddyrovers]

11 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

That's why is said last June and not this June. The market hasn't changed that much in the last year for Championship clubs players of that value are still out there.

maybe say June 2017 would be more clear. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

You can bet your house that barring injuries Evans and Smallwood will start against Norwich.

[chaddyrovers]

7 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

You keep talking about this vision but ive not seen any tangible signs that we are working towards a new playing style.

We play long ball football (most in the league) and have shown no signs in terms of playing style of slowly filtering in any

Please can you explain exactly what you mean by Mowbrays vision?

 

You love going around in circles and quite frankly you doing my heading to be honest. 

I very simple 2 second google search would show you Mowbray's comments about his wish to evolve our playing style

here is the link https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/17259862.mowbray-wants-rovers-to-evolve-their-style-of-play/

This link was posted at the time of the article. 

yes you keep mentioning these long balls but I guess what they classed as long ball and what they don't. You could see yesterday after half time we pass more to feet than 1st half and then as soon as we conceded we look uncomfortable and nervous wreck and start with hopeless aimless long balls. Instead of playing the same way

[Ewood Ace]

1 minute ago, chaddyrovers said:

You love going around in circles and quite frankly you doing my heading to be honest. 

I very simple 2 second google search would show you Mowbray's comments about his wish to evolve our playing style

here is the link https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/17259862.mowbray-wants-rovers-to-evolve-their-style-of-play/

It's all very well talking about it but there is no sign of it on the pitch

[roversfan99]

9 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

You love going around in circles and quite frankly you doing my heading to be honest. 

I very simple 2 second google search would show you Mowbray's comments about his wish to evolve our playing style

here is the link https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/17259862.mowbray-wants-rovers-to-evolve-their-style-of-play/

This link was posted at the time of the article. 

yes you keep mentioning these long balls but I guess what they classed as long ball and what they don't. You could see yesterday after half time we pass more to feet than 1st half and then as soon as we conceded we look uncomfortable and nervous wreck and start with hopeless aimless long balls. Instead of playing the same way

@Ewood Ace responded with the same point as I was going to make.

You judge based on what people say rather than what people do. There have been no signs of us changing our style on the pitch, we still play direct, long ball, playing the percentages football. I judge on what I see on the pitch, not on soundbites in interviews which until they are carried out mean nothing.

He has been accused of being overly loyal to his favourites,  he Smallwood for example has had numerous poor games but he continues to be selected, rather than moving Reed central or the far more technically capable Rodwell who he signed. He has been overly loyal to Armstrong, who in the main has been poor this season. 2 more of his signings, Rothwell and Palmer who both are capable of perhaps making our team more technically proficient, have in the main been kicking their heels on the subs bench all season. Even with the personnel at his disposal, if he does genuinely want to play a more passing based style, he seems reluctant to use the players that he presumably brought in to help implement it, and there have been no signs of these changes thus far.

Football is all about results anyway, there is no right and wrong way to play. But just commenting on all of this Mowbrays vision nonsense.

[chaddyrovers]

1 minute ago, roversfan99 said:

@Ewood Ace responded with the same point as I was going to make.

You judge based on what people say rather than what people do. There have been no signs of us changing our style on the pitch, we still play direct, long ball, playing the percentages football. I judge on what I see on the pitch, not on soundbites in interviews which until they are carried out mean nothing.

He has been accused of being overly loyal to his favourites,  he Smallwood for example has had numerous poor games but he continues to be selected, rather than moving Reed central or the far more technically capable Rodwell who he signed. He has been overly loyal to Armstrong, who in the main has been poor this season. 2 more of his signings, Rothwell and Palmer who both are capable of perhaps making our team more technically proficient, have in the main been kicking their heels on the subs bench all season. Even with the personnel at his disposal, if he does genuinely want to play a more passing based style, he seems reluctant to use the players that he presumably brought in to help implement it, and there have been no signs of these changes thus far.

Football is all about results anyway, there is no right and wrong way to play. But just commenting on all of this Mowbrays vision nonsense.

I expect this passing style will come in next season tbh but this is Mowbray long term vision for the club going forward. 

 

I'm happy with us being 12th and would take this come of the season. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

33 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

@Ewood Ace responded with the same point as I was going to make.

You judge based on what people say rather than what people do. There have been no signs of us changing our style on the pitch, we still play direct, long ball, playing the percentages football. I judge on what I see on the pitch, not on soundbites in interviews which until they are carried out mean nothing.

He has been accused of being overly loyal to his favourites,  he Smallwood for example has had numerous poor games but he continues to be selected, rather than moving Reed central or the far more technically capable Rodwell who he signed. He has been overly loyal to Armstrong, who in the main has been poor this season. 2 more of his signings, Rothwell and Palmer who both are capable of perhaps making our team more technically proficient, have in the main been kicking their heels on the subs bench all season. Even with the personnel at his disposal, if he does genuinely want to play a more passing based style, he seems reluctant to use the players that he presumably brought in to help implement it, and there have been no signs of these changes thus far.

Football is all about results anyway, there is no right and wrong way to play. But just commenting on all of this Mowbrays vision nonsense.

Does your last paragraph not show that Mowbray is doing a great job as we are over achieving? Look at the prediction thread. Avoiding relegation was most people's aim 

[roversfan99]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Does your last paragraph not show that Mowbray is doing a great job as we are over achieving? Look at the prediction thread. Avoiding relegation was most people's aim 

I never felt we would be near the bottom, mid table is about where I expected, wouldnt say we are overachieving. But I do think that Mowbray is doing a good job and have never suggested otherwise. 

[K-Hod]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

@Ewood Ace responded with the same point as I was going to make.

You judge based on what people say rather than what people do. There have been no signs of us changing our style on the pitch, we still play direct, long ball, playing the percentages football. I judge on what I see on the pitch, not on soundbites in interviews which until they are carried out mean nothing.

He has been accused of being overly loyal to his favourites,  he Smallwood for example has had numerous poor games but he continues to be selected, rather than moving Reed central or the far more technically capable Rodwell who he signed. He has been overly loyal to Armstrong, who in the main has been poor this season. 2 more of his signings, Rothwell and Palmer who both are capable of perhaps making our team more technically proficient, have in the main been kicking their heels on the subs bench all season. Even with the personnel at his disposal, if he does genuinely want to play a more passing based style, he seems reluctant to use the players that he presumably brought in to help implement it, and there have been no signs of these changes thus far.

Football is all about results anyway, there is no right and wrong way to play. But just commenting on all of this Mowbrays vision nonsense.

I think you two should get a room....?

[roversfan99]

2 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

I think you two should get a room....?

I'd offer to take him for a drink but I suspect I may get an answer similar to Mercer...

[JBiz]

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

If your primary argument is that its difficult to sign players at reasonable players full stop then surely all signings and all managers are exempt from judgement when they make a signing?

Just to prove that there are reasonably priced players that could have improved us in various areas where we could have done with reinforcements, here are some other Championship transfers from the summer. I have excluded some loans that I felt were unrealistic (, and I am not saying that ALL these players were necessarily attainable, or that all of them would have proved to be clever acquisitions. Prices taken from transfermarkt:

RB - Moses Odubajo (Brentford, free), Jack Hunt (Bristol City, 1.5m)

CB - Kyle Bartley (Swansea, 4m), Jordan Storey (PNE, 750k), Ezri Konza (Brentford, 2.5m), John Egan (Sheff Utd, 4m), Adam Webster (Bristol City, 3.6m), Tamas Kalas (Bristol City, loan), Michael Hector (Sheffield United, loan), Michael Hefele (Forest, 300k), Reece Burke (Hull, 1.5m)

LB - Connor Townsend (WBA, 750k), Jay DaSilva (Bristol City, loan), Barry Douglas (Leeds, 3m), Jack Robinson (QPR, free)

RW - Barrie McKay (Swansea, 500k), Florian Jozefzoon (Derby, 2.8m), Duane Holmes (Derby, 750k), Brandon Barker (PNE, loan), Said Benrahma (Brentford, 1.5m), Gwoin Edwards (Ipswich, 700k), Jack Harrison (Leeds, loan)

ST - Jack Marriott (Derby, 3m), Martyn Waghorn (Derby, 5m), David McGoldrick (Sheff Utd, free), Andreas Weimann (Bristol City, 2m), Teemu Pukki (Norwich, free), Nakhi Wells (QPR, loan), Lewis Grabban (Forest, 6m), Josh Windass (Wigan, 2m)

Just wanted to dispel any myths that 7m isnt a hell of a lot of money to spend at this money.

 

No one has said that. You are exaggerating and twisting a genuine argument that we could have improved other areas or spent the money much more efficiently at this stage of the teams development to something totally ridiculous.

Now after all the “straw-men” of BRFCS - the first paragraph is a pearler. Ofcourse judgement of transfers is fair cop - it should be accompanied with some level of scope though.

For instance - it may escape people’s gaze, we are a recently promoted from league 1 team. How many in your list went to teams in the playoffs or just outside from last season?

Or how many went to teams recently relegated with bigger wages to play with? I’m not suggesting our business is perfect but I would say many of the preferred options had suitors before us in the pecking order.

WBA, Villa, Stoke, Forest, Derby, Swansea, Norwich, Leeds, Bristol City - all arguably better positioned squad wise to be premier league and therefore wages doubled in 12 months. 

We should know what agents have done to transfers. The simplicity of which a name and a price is given, belies the facts I’ve mentioned about the transfer market also adding in the extreme level of competition to get into the top flight.

. 

[chaddyrovers]

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

If your primary argument is that its difficult to sign players at reasonable players full stop then surely all signings and all managers are exempt from judgement when they make a signing?

Just to prove that there are reasonably priced players that could have improved us in various areas where we could have done with reinforcements, here are some other Championship transfers from the summer. I have excluded some loans that I felt were unrealistic (, and I am not saying that ALL these players were necessarily attainable, or that all of them would have proved to be clever acquisitions. Prices taken from transfermarkt:

RB - Moses Odubajo (Brentford, free), Jack Hunt (Bristol City, 1.5m)

CB - Kyle Bartley (Swansea, 4m), Jordan Storey (PNE, 750k), Ezri Konza (Brentford, 2.5m), John Egan (Sheff Utd, 4m), Adam Webster (Bristol City, 3.6m), Tamas Kalas (Bristol City, loan), Michael Hector (Sheffield United, loan), Michael Hefele (Forest, 300k), Reece Burke (Hull, 1.5m)

LB - Connor Townsend (WBA, 750k), Jay DaSilva (Bristol City, loan), Barry Douglas (Leeds, 3m), Jack Robinson (QPR, free)

RW - Barrie McKay (Swansea, 500k), Florian Jozefzoon (Derby, 2.8m), Duane Holmes (Derby, 750k), Brandon Barker (PNE, loan), Said Benrahma (Brentford, 1.5m), Gwoin Edwards (Ipswich, 700k), Jack Harrison (Leeds, loan)

ST - Jack Marriott (Derby, 3m), Martyn Waghorn (Derby, 5m), David McGoldrick (Sheff Utd, free), Andreas Weimann (Bristol City, 2m), Teemu Pukki (Norwich, free), Nakhi Wells (QPR, loan), Lewis Grabban (Forest, 6m), Josh Windass (Wigan, 2m)

Just wanted to dispel any myths that 7m isnt a hell of a lot of money to spend at this money.

 

but what your list of players doesn't included is agents fee, players wages, player attitude and whether they suited the team dynamics  . This is the problem with list like you produce. 

Also maybe some were targets like Waghorn, Marriott, Edwards but Rovers were outbid wages or transfer fee wise

 

[Mattyblue]

The way I see it is Mowbray knows the score at this level, he knows where we are lacking and the type of player we need to improve.

I just do not see him wanting to spend 7 million of precious funds on an unproven teenager.

How this transfer came about is a mystery to me. Is it because Venky’s will only release cash for young English talent, i.e sell on potential? This summer’s transfers suggest so.  Was it a case of spend it on BB or lose it? 

If that’s the case and ‘there’s more where that came from’, then fine, I suppose. But 7 million on 2/3 proven pros could have seen us right up there in a wide open league, instead we’ve bought ‘potential’, that yes, sometimes works out a treat, but often these lads just don’t kick on like people hoped.

It is a hell of a gamble for the modern day BRFC, so lets hope it’s the former for our and this ‘project’s’ sake.