Ben Brereton Diaz

[Bigdoggsteel]

I don't see why they couldn't be swapped for a game or two. If Brereton played with the under 23s and got himself a goal or two, he would be in much better shape coming off the bench for Graham. I understand Mowbray using him sparingly, but if he only gets 10, 20 minutes here and there for the next while and never scores, then , even though he isn't starting, we are in "goal drought" territory. Nuttall deserves to be Grahams back up. He is banging them in. What more can he do? 

[Stuart]

1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I don't see why they couldn't be swapped for a game or two. If Brereton played with the under 23s and got himself a goal or two, he would be in much better shape coming off the bench for Graham. I understand Mowbray using him sparingly, but if he only gets 10, 20 minutes here and there for the next while and never scores, then , even though he isn't starting, we are in "goal drought" territory. Nuttall deserves to be Grahams back up. He is banging them in. What more can he do? 

Bigdoggsteel for manager!

Unfortunately there are 7m reasons not to play a fully fit Brereton in the U23s.

[Bigdoggsteel]

33 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Bigdoggsteel for manager!

Unfortunately there are 7m reasons not to play a fully fit Brereton in the U23s.

I would have to keep off here for a start ? 

[Stuart]

2 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I would have to keep off here for a start ? 

It wouldn’t be good for your self-esteem, for sure!  

Edited December 18, 2018 by Stuart

[RevidgeBlue]

18 hours ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

I personally have no issue with some guidelines on how the money may be spent being defined by whoever stumps up the money. When you get a mortgage, you can’t use it to buy whatever or however many properties you like, the bank has a say.

Equally, I think it unlikely that £7 million appeared with instructions to Mogga to do whatever he liked with it. That much money, spread over the lifetime of his contract, is a capital investment that may well pay back given Brereton won’t be on top dollar wages. The same amount spent on two or three “proven” players, probably needing 6x the salary outlay for years to come, could only not be a sunk cost if we won promotion because of it. And I think we are more than three players away from a promotion team.

That's some fairly creative excuse making to justify 7m being spent on a guy to whom we won't hand a start.

  Yes the fee for BB will probably not be payable up front and will be spread over the life of the contract but so would be the fee for any other player!

This assumption that he will be on relatively small wages is purely that, an assumption, and could be completely incorrect. In any case even if he was only on 10k p.w. as opposed to our top earners on 25k p.w. it would take nine or ten years to recoup the fee back in wage savings.

I don't think either you can ever say that money spent on players who would go straight into the team and improve it would be dead or "sunk" money. If you take that view there's no point ever starting to try to improve whereas in reality it should be a continual process even if you've just won the League.

 

[Mercer]

4 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

That's some fairly creative excuse making to justify 7m being spent on a guy to whom we won't hand a start.

  Yes the fee for BB will probably not be payable up front and will be spread over the life of the contract but so would be the fee for any other player!

This assumption that he will be on relatively small wages is purely that, an assumption, and could be completely incorrect. In any case even if he was only on 10k p.w. as opposed to our top earners on 25k p.w. it would take nine or ten years to recoup the fee back in wage savings.

I don't think either you can ever say that money spent on players who would go straight into the team and improve it would be dead or "sunk" money. If you take that view there's no point ever starting to try to improve whereas in reality it should be a continual process even if you've just won the League.

 

It's been flagged on this MB (can't recall where the link is) that the deal for Brereton is a minimum of £7million plus add ons.

The contractual commitment for Rovers, after also including wages, is therefore likely to be in the order of a minimum of £12million to £15million when social security costs (NI) are factored in.

The latest group accounts show a reported turnover of just £10m (£16m the previous year).  This means, at worse, over 4 years (think that's his contract length), Brereton accounts for almost 40% of our turnover.  At best, Brereton accounts for approx. 20% of our turnover.  These are astounding figures for a player who has yet to start a league game for us or score a league goal.  IMV, commercial and financial madness.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Mercer

[Exiled in Toronto]

4 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

That's some fairly creative excuse making to justify 7m being spent on a guy to whom we won't hand a start.

  Yes the fee for BB will probably not be payable up front and will be spread over the life of the contract but so would be the fee for any other player!

This assumption that he will be on relatively small wages is purely that, an assumption, and could be completely incorrect. In any case even if he was only on 10k p.w. as opposed to our top earners on 25k p.w. it would take nine or ten years to recoup the fee back in wage savings.

I don't think either you can ever say that money spent on players who would go straight into the team and improve it would be dead or "sunk" money. If you take that view there's no point ever starting to try to improve whereas in reality it should be a continual process even if you've just won the League.

 

But surely you see the cost difference in salaries between buying one young player for £7m vs buying three much older, established players? It turns what was probably a £9million decision (of which £7million is in theory recoverable) into something like a £13-15m decision of which the majority of the money will never come back. The two situations aren’t remotely comparable financially.

[SBlue]

18 minutes ago, Mercer said:

It's been flagged on this MB (can't recall where the link is) that the deal for Brereton is a minimum of £7million plus add ons.

Anyone have a source on this?

[tomphil]

Are we running an accounting tool or breeding unit to sell potential pedigree footballers for big money or are we wanting to build a team capable of promotion and a season in the land of milk and honey with 100 million guaranteed ?

[Oldgregg86]

34 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Are we running an accounting tool or breeding unit to sell potential pedigree footballers for big money or are we wanting to build a team capable of promotion and a season in the land of milk and honey with 100 million guaranteed ?

The first one

Edited December 18, 2018 by Oldgregg86

[RevidgeBlue]

1 hour ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

But surely you see the cost difference in salaries between buying one young player for £7m vs buying three much older, established players? It turns what was probably a £9million decision (of which £7million is in theory recoverable) into something like a £13-15m decision of which the majority of the money will never come back. The two situations aren’t remotely comparable financially.

Im not suggesting bringing in players  at the end of their careers with no resale value but you'd still have a potential for profit by bringing in a player of age 23 say. But don't pay £7m for a player then don't play him.

I'm not even opposed in principle to the BB deal. I just don't understand why the manager won't give him a chance and he's never going to improve getting 15 mins now and then out of position.

[Butty]

13 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Nuttall needs to be ahead of Brereton at this point, no? 

Nuttall has always scored goals for the U23s since we signed him, this season and last season. However, from what I’ve seen of him he wasn’t good enough for league one last season and unless he’s dramatically improved which I don’t think he has then i’d much rather us loan him out in Jan to get some first team football. On playing BB in the u23s though, I wouldn’t object too that. He badly needs minutes, as well as some confidence. 

[Exiled in Toronto]

4 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Im not suggesting bringing in players  at the end of their careers with no resale value but you'd still have a potential for profit by bringing in a player of age 23 say. But don't pay £7m for a player then don't play him.

I'm not even opposed in principle to the BB deal. I just don't understand why the manager won't give him a chance and he's never going to improve getting 15 mins now and then out of position.

No argument from me on that aspect.

[blueboy3333]

10 hours ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

But surely you see the cost difference in salaries between buying one young player for £7m vs buying three much older, established players? It turns what was probably a £9million decision (of which £7million is in theory recoverable) into something like a £13-15m decision of which the majority of the money will never come back. The two situations aren’t remotely comparable financially.

The £7m is guaranteed. Then there are add-ons. This has been confirmed by Sharpe and the Forest journo. Add the salary over 4 years and you are looking at £13-£15m anyway for BB. There are absolutely no guarantees we will get any of that back. He could have bought 10 Dacks instead.  That is your financial comparison.

[blueboy3333]

9 hours ago, Butty said:

Nuttall has always scored goals for the U23s since we signed him, this season and last season. However, from what I’ve seen of him he wasn’t good enough for league one last season and unless he’s dramatically improved which I don’t think he has then i’d much rather us loan him out in Jan to get some first team football. On playing BB in the u23s though, I wouldn’t object too that. He badly needs minutes, as well as some confidence. 

I think you're right on that for the most part but he does seem to be a genuine goalscorer. He just doesn't appear to be the type that could play the lone striker at Championship level yet. That may change as he gets more experience. I think there's definitely something there though. Story in the LT today that 3 L1 clubs are after him on loan so hopefully he will get a move in January so he can test himself. 

[Mattyblue]

£13-15 million. What can you do in this daft market ay? Going rate for promising teenagers.

I mean if you wanted to buy players performing at the very top level, like a Shaqiri, theyd be miles out of our price range, costing... oh! 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Mattyblue

[JBiz]

10 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

I'm not even opposed in principle to the BB deal. I just don't understand why the manager won't give him a chance and he's never going to improve getting 15 mins now and then out of position.

He’s not been out of the first 18 - I accept I’d like to see more but the point of signing potential is giving time to break into that picture, isn’t it?

Paying lower prem wages to someone to wait in the same way would be a far more confusing scenario.

For instance, we could’ve spent 7m easily on wages, 7m divided by 52 is 132k approx a week, could’ve (very simplistically) got us;

No fees, 4x top end champ wage 30k for 1 season.

3.5m in fees and 2x top end champ wage @ 30k a week for 1 season.

3.5m in fees, 4x lower champ/lower division/less experienced players @ 15k a week for one season.

If we’ve spent 7m upfront and a high championship wage to sit someone on the bench, I’d agree. The thing is, I don’t think we’d even be able to do that, especially considering total turnover for last season was just above 10 million. Reasonable wage that fits into the structure and payments over time would be my view.

1 hour ago, blueboy3333 said:

The £7m is guaranteed. Then there are add-ons. This has been confirmed by Sharpe and the Forest journo. Add the salary over 4 years and you are looking at £13-£15m anyway for BB. There are absolutely no guarantees we will get any of that back. He could have bought 10 Dacks instead.  That is your financial comparison.

So much is assumption till the finances come out. Let’s not forget though, the 7m+ add ons is also an assumption based on conflicting reports - the line from the BBC “The 19-year-old could make his switch to Ewood Park permanent in January for a fee worth up to £7m.”

It certainly suits criticism for him to be on Big dollar and a “record” sum. 15m over 4 years:...  4 years wages another 7m? I don’t think he’s on 35k+ a week Blue boy. If he is, then I’d be more than confused/worried - I’d be convinced something dodgy is going on.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Biz

[47er]

It's the worst signing of its type since Grabbi, ie by a manager who is not certifiable. I'm ignoring loads of Kean's signings.

[Exiled in Toronto]

3 hours ago, blueboy3333 said:

The £7m is guaranteed. Then there are add-ons. This has been confirmed by Sharpe and the Forest journo. Add the salary over 4 years and you are looking at £13-£15m anyway for BB. There are absolutely no guarantees we will get any of that back. He could have bought 10 Dacks instead.  That is your financial comparison.

I’m sure you would have been first to welcome him buying ten League One players. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

35 minutes ago, 47er said:

It's the worst signing of its type since Grabbi, ie by a manager who is not certifiable. I'm ignoring loads of Kean's signings.

Bit too early for that. Maybe let him start a game first! 

[Dreams of 1995]

4 huge games coming up now and these are the games I'd be looking at my £7m striker to score and win us some points.

If we went into this run of games with a Jordan Rhodes (really, despite the Grabbi references, the only true comparable signing we can make to BB) then I'd be far more confident than going into this run with Brereton. Rhodes justified his fee by putting the goal in the back of the net, regardless of any arguments about the remainder of his play. Brereton simply hasn't and, ultimately, that is what strikers are judged on.

Potential aside we are now in a situation whereby the centre forward who we can be confident in scoring is DG. Can he do all 4 of these big games? There surely has to be a game coming up that Brereton starts - it is, in my view, a chance for him to define his Rovers career. If Brereton doesn't get a single start over the Christmas period then my assumption will be that there is something not quite right by all of this.

There's no need to panic with his lack of game time thus far but we are due to spend the money on him very soon - show us why!

[SBlue]

I don't think we should drop Danny Graham right now. Seems to be an often overlooked part of the situation.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Ya, even if we had Jordan Rhodes now, could you really say starting him over Graham would be the best thing to do? 

I want Brereton to start, but we only have one spot and Graham is class. With a few games back to back over Xmas, it could be the time for Brereton though. If not then he has to start against Newcastle!! 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Bigdoggsteel

[Bbrovers2288]

Thinking about it I think my main issue with brereton is that he doesn’t ooze cockiness or that slightly nasty streak good strikers have. Looks like a nice lad you would take for tea with your gran. If a big boy asks him to give him the ball he would burst into tears. There is a swagger and a it’s your fault I missed that open goal attitude that I like to see I’m just not seeing. Doesn’t look like he is prepared to put himself about in a hard tussle and that concerns me

[JacknOry]

I wouldnt be starting him ahead of DG anyway but he needs to be his direct replacement when he invariably tires in games. That said, somebody highlighted how many points we have dropped once DG is off the pitch - though whether this is actually linked or as a team mentally and/or tactically we just do not have the ability to hold on to winning positions is another debate.