Ben Brereton Diaz

[LDRover]

I think the most telling thing is that the focus of this thread has changed from 'Does Brereton look like a 7 million pound player?' to ' Does Brereton even look like a footballer?'

[blueboy3333]

49 minutes ago, Biz said:

@blueboy3333 surely “catastrophic mistake” is worse than “fraud”...! 

You lied about the 'fraud'. Nothing is worse than that. 

[Mattyblue]

Interesting to see meadows/Jim Wilkinson, who does have decent sources, I believe, say on Twitter that he’s heard BB and Davenport were not players Mowbray wanted...

[Stuart]

1 minute ago, Mattyblue said:

Interesting to see meadows/Jim Wilkinson, who does have decent sources, I believe, say on Twitter that he’s heard BB and Davenport were not players Mowbray wanted...

More like “worrying”.

[roversfan99]

4 hours ago, J*B said:

I'll judge him when he starts being played as a striker - at the moment I blame Mowbray who signed a striker and plays him as a winger.

But recently he has often come on more centrally. He came on against Birmingham centrally and was equally poor.

Hes not showing any attributes to suggest that he could be effective in either position.

4 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

Mark Atkins on Radio Lancs was cutting - ‘out of his depth, making basic errors that tells me he isn’t ready for this level’

 

The way I look at it is this. If he was our own 19 year old academy lad, what would we be saying? ‘Raw, not ready, needs more time with U23s or a loan out’.

So, just because he’s got a price tag shouldn’t make a difference- currently he is nowhere near ready for the first team and needs taking out the firing line immediately for the good of the team and the lad himself, because today was painful for all concerned.

Absolutely right. Many defend Brereton on the fact that his price tag is too much of a factor in peoples judgements, when it could be argued that its the only thing that keeps him in the 18.

2 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Celina and Freeman either side of Dack. Oh, don't do that to me 

Celina is a number 10. The fact that we apparently wanted him is further indicative of Mowbrays bizarre mindset of playing anyone wide bar actual natural wide men.

2 hours ago, Biz said:

Poor when he arrived today. No final ball, no quality at all. Looked out of position and lacking presence. I’d love to see us change formation to 2 up front now and then to better accommodate AA and Ben.

One thing about the massive criticisms though; I noticed a very different expectation. KP came on, gave the ball away, failed to track, had no final ball and seemed to get progressively worse, yet the people around and behind me made no comment.

BB’s first touch, second touch and further had comments - many “he’s shit”, “why have we spent 7.5m”, “he’s not even a footballer”...

Now I don’t really think Ben looks a wide attacker yet, like Armstrong is developing into, he’s 19 and still raw... why is the expectation so high?

Reason is price. I personally don’t think it should be like that, but I felt it today - the people around me genuinely vociferously more critical purely based on the contract scenario of both subs!

The irony of it all.. one lad behind me said “he looks so short of confidence”.... no fucking wonder!

There are 2 elements to your implication that the fans are causing (partially or fully) his lack of confidence and as a result, his poor performances.

When he came on, his name was cheered. What we put on a messageboard, on social media or discuss to our friend next to us is totally irrelevant, he is oblivious to that.

In terms of a few groans when he messed up or misplaced another pass, thats a natural instinct and reaction, you cant try to stop or blame that. Just as if we score the fans naturally cheer, if anyone messes up, theres a natural frustration. You need people to be brave enough and to have a thick enough skin to carry on asking for the ball. If he lacks that then he needs to be taken out of the matchday squad and out of the firing line.

 

1 hour ago, Biz said:

Complete over reaction in my opinion. Patience is a virtue.

 Patience is only warranted surely if a player is showcasing even glimmers of any attributes that could be developed or enhanced (of course baring in mind his age) to make a good player for us.

What is Brereton showing? He's not fast. He's weak and flimsy. He cant hold the ball up. He isnt a goal threat, nor does his Forest record suggest he was anyway. He doesnt showcase intelligence in terms of movement or in terms of decision making. He hasnt got a good first touch. What does he do to even warrant a place in the matchday squad at the moment.

[47er]

3 hours ago, Stuart said:

But it does make a difference. The price tag makes it necessary to make it successful and reduces the time that a player has before they will be judged. If he wasn’t ready or didn’t fit into Mowbray’s system then it was very poor scouting indeed.

Right now, Nuttall should be on the first team bench ahead of Brereton but how embarrassing would that be for Mowbray?

We should never have committed that much money - even if it was some kind of use it or lose it scenario. Half of that cash would have gone a long way in January to improve where we have issues. This signing has huge question marks over it.

For me, it has Venkys all over it!

[G Somerset Rover]

48 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Interesting to see meadows/Jim Wilkinson, who does have decent sources, I believe, say on Twitter that he’s heard BB and Davenport were not players Mowbray wanted...

Just been asking him about it on Twitter. If true (and I definitely feel something smells fishy) it’s bloody extremely worrying that we’re back to the days of the V’s listening to agent/advisor muppets like Anderson again. 

Edited December 22, 2018 by Gavlar Somerset Rover!

[47er]

3 hours ago, Ewood Ace said:

The trouble is that if Gallagher comes in he will be shunted out wide to play out off position. 

If we must play with this formation and Graham must start (which he should) then the only place for Brereton, or any other central striker for that matter, is as replacement for Graham when he tires or is unfit to start.

If Brereton isn't up to that, and that seems to be TM's opinion, then the club has wasted 7M which we will never get back.

All this reminds me so much of the bad old Venky days it makes me weep.

Personally, and feel free to call me old-fashioned, I'd like to see a winger on each wing and two up-front. That way we might see what Brereton can do and other strikers we have for that matter.

2 hours ago, Biz said:

Complete over reaction in my opinion. Patience is a virtue.

You're looking like the last man standing pal!

[JBiz]

29 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

 

 Patience is only warranted surely if a player is showcasing even glimmers of any attributes that could be developed or enhanced (of course baring in mind his age) to make a good player for us.

What is Brereton showing? He's not fast. He's weak and flimsy. He cant hold the ball up. He isnt a goal threat, nor does his Forest record suggest he was anyway. He doesnt showcase intelligence in terms of movement or in terms of decision making. He hasnt got a good first touch. What does he do to even warrant a place in the matchday squad at the moment.

How is it patience if I’m prepared to judge someone on a poor cameo out of position, or a succession of substitute appearances? That’s the opposite of patience. You’re basing your total expectation without a start in the league for us and his forest career.... he is 19 for god sake, he’s barely past a graduate.

Unlike the suggestions above, I don’t think what he has offered thus far is the maximum either, and I think highly of the manager’s opinion, so if he’s in the squad - it’s on merit.

Palmer, who (for all the physical and technical attributes) looked equally clueless and far more lazy when brought on. My low opinion doesn’t stoop to questioning his inclusion in the squad though. Like I’ve said before, I don’t have the arrogance to think I know more from seeing less.

17 minutes ago, 47er said:

 

 

All this reminds me so much of the bad old Venky days it makes me weep.

You're looking like the last man standing pal!

You make sense about Graham being streets ahead of anyone else in this setup, and wanting more actual “wingers”  - but I don’t understand how a big signing not quite stepping up yet is akin to us giving the reigns to a crooked agent, sticking with and hiring dodgy managers and tieing up and paying off thousands of pounds on poor contracts?

 

[47er]

4 minutes ago, Biz said:

You make sense about Graham being streets ahead of anyone else in this setup, and wanting more actual “wingers”  - but I don’t understand how a big signing not quite stepping up yet is akin to us giving the reigns to a crooked agent, sticking with and hiring dodgy managers and tieing up and paying off thousands of pounds on poor contracts?

 

Whichever way you look at it, this signing stinks.

[47er]

1 hour ago, Mattyblue said:

Interesting to see meadows/Jim Wilkinson, who does have decent sources, I believe, say on Twitter that he’s heard BB and Davenport were not players Mowbray wanted...

More conspiracy theorists Biz?

[JBiz]

2 minutes ago, 47er said:

Whichever way you look at it, this signing stinks.

From my perspective, that’s just not true. (As in seems dodgy)

Underwhelming transfers do happen you know? Didn’t we pay 5m + for Ashley Ward in the 90s? Not that I’d be at that point to Fully judge yet, personally.

[47er]

3 hours ago, Biz said:

Nuttall deserves more of a chance but that can only come at the sub for Graham, whereas Ben is more “wide attacking” (although today was poor!)

I genuinely feel a change of formation coming but it’s hard to see Dack dropped! 3 at the back could bring another forward in...

Is Ben really more "wide attacking" or are you just changing the facts to suit your support of this appalling decision to pay 7M for a player who seems to have very little going for him and  ignore more pressing weaknesses in the team?

I feel genuinely sorry for this lad, every time he comes on for his" cameo" the dread must rise deeper within him.

We are ruining whatever he had. He will leave at some point for nothing with his career in tatters.

[roversfan99]

2 minutes ago, Biz said:

How is it patience if I’m prepared to judge someone on a poor cameo out of position, or a succession of substitute appearances? That’s the opposite of patience. You’re basing your total expectation without a start in the league for us and his forest career.... he is 19 for god sake, he’s barely past a graduate.

Unlike the suggestions above, I don’t think what he has offered thus far is the maximum either, and I think highly of the manager’s opinion, so if he’s in the squad - it’s on merit.

Palmer, who (for all the physical and technical attributes) looked equally clueless and far more lazy when brought on. My low opinion doesn’t stoop to questioning his inclusion in the squad though. Like I’ve said before, I don’t have the arrogance to think I know more from seeing less.

You make sense about Graham being streets ahead of anyone else in this setup, and wanting more actual “wingers”  - but I don’t understand how a big signing not quite stepping up yet is akin to us giving the reigns to a crooked agent, sticking with and hiring dodgy managers and tieing up and paying off thousands of pounds on poor contracts?

 

Of course I am basing my opinion on his time in a Rovers shirt, what else would I judge him on?! I know he is 19, that would justify a rawness to his game, occasional poor decisions, inconsistency. Patience doesnt mean not passing comment on him at all until he reaches a certain age. I don't see any element in his game based on his appearances thus far that makes me think "hes young but he could develop into a good player." He is weak and lacks the ability to hold the ball up, sure he could bulk up in the gym. I was under the impression that he has a bit of pace and could run at players, I've yet to see it at all. There were 2 or 3 times today alone were he tried taking people on and lacked the acceleration to do so. His first touch is shocking and hes incredibly clumsy and cumbersome. He frequently shows a lack of intelligence and understanding both on and off the ball. And his lack of goal threat is given further context when you see his record at Forest. In fact the only 2 things that give me any blind faith are ironically his price tag as well as his reputation. I'm not asking for or expecting the final product or the fully developed player at 19. I expect a rawness, I expect inconsistencies, I expect drops in form, I just want something to say yeah we have a potentially good player here.

Its not arrogance to have an opinion contrary to that of the manager, regardless of what he sees in training, and regardless of the fact that hes obviously a manager and we are not. The only time it matters is on a match day when we both see as much as Mowbray does. Gladwin was apparently the best player in training according to Mowbray but on the pitch he was as useful as a dustbin.

I think highly of the manager too, but I come on an internet messageboard to see a variety of opinions, just because Mowbray has done a good job doesnt make his judgement perfect or his decision making beyond reproach.

If you think Palmer is lazy and clueless, why do you not question his inclusion in the squad? Do you not trust your own judgement and vision? Such a strange thing to say.

[JBiz]

3 minutes ago, 47er said:

Is Ben really more "wide attacking" or are you just changing the facts to suit your support of this appalling decision to pay 7M for a player who seems to have very little going for him and  ignore more pressing weaknesses in the team?

I feel genuinely sorry for this lad, every time he comes on for his" cameo" the dread must rise deeper within him.

We are ruining whatever he had. He will leave at some point for nothing with his career in tatters.

Nope, Nuttall is a big target man / poacher as far as I recall, and whilst I think Ben is more likely a central player- he’s more suited than Joe.

He has been here 4 months, he hasn’t started yet but we are “ruining him”. Sorry, but I just don’t agree. I’ll keep saying it, and you can keep replying if you want - it’s too early to judge.

[JBiz]

3 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Of course I am basing my opinion on his time in a Rovers shirt, what else would I judge him on?! I know he is 19, that would justify a rawness to his game, occasional poor decisions, inconsistency. Patience doesnt mean not passing comment on him at all until he reaches a certain age. I don't see any element in his game based on his appearances thus far that makes me think "hes young but he could develop into a good player." He is weak and lacks the ability to hold the ball up, sure he could bulk up in the gym. I was under the impression that he has a bit of pace and could run at players, I've yet to see it at all. There were 2 or 3 times today alone were he tried taking people on and lacked the acceleration to do so. His first touch is shocking and hes incredibly clumsy and cumbersome. He frequently shows a lack of intelligence and understanding both on and off the ball. And his lack of goal threat is given further context when you see his record at Forest. In fact the only 2 things that give me any blind faith are ironically his price tag as well as his reputation. I'm not asking for or expecting the final product or the fully developed player at 19. I expect a rawness, I expect inconsistencies, I expect drops in form, I just want something to say yeah we have a potentially good player here.

Its not arrogance to have an opinion contrary to that of the manager, regardless of what he sees in training, and regardless of the fact that hes obviously a manager and we are not. The only time it matters is on a match day when we both see as much as Mowbray does. Gladwin was apparently the best player in training according to Mowbray but on the pitch he was as useful as a dustbin.

I think highly of the manager too, but I come on an internet messageboard to see a variety of opinions, just because Mowbray has done a good job doesnt make his judgement perfect or his decision making beyond reproach.

If you think Palmer is lazy and clueless, why do you not question his inclusion in the squad? Do you not trust your own judgement and vision? Such a strange thing to say.

You keep referencing forest so that’s what else you’re basing it on for a start.

Passing comment is one thing - suggesting he shouldn’t be in the squad? That’s a complete different suggestion in my eyes. It’s effectively saying he’s not even worthy of a chance.

I thought KP was dissapointing but do I think he’s done enough to warrant a shot from the bench? That’s not my decision because I don’t take training. I wouldn’t be to impressed though by either of them in those roles today - but that’s not to say it’s time to bin either off to the u23s.

Funny that you mention Gladwin.. I mean I remember one real poor moment, but overall I couldn’t say he’s “a bad un!” Because I never actually got to see him have proper spell. Two knee injuries and surgery curtailed any chance for him, regardless of the tattoos and pints stories on here.

 

[47er]

6 minutes ago, Biz said:

Nope, Nuttall is a big target man / poacher as far as I recall, and whilst I think Ben is more likely a central player- he’s more suited than Joe.

He has been here 4 months, he hasn’t started yet but we are “ruining him”. Sorry, but I just don’t agree. I’ll keep saying it, and you can keep replying if you want - it’s too early to judge.

Well I'll leave it here----Ben does not seem to be making a success of his "wide attacking role" and, for that matter, neither does anyone else.

Its about time the manager woke up before we drop further down the league.

[Crimpshrine]

1 hour ago, Mattyblue said:

Interesting to see meadows/Jim Wilkinson, who does have decent sources, I believe, say on Twitter that he’s heard BB and Davenport were not players Mowbray wanted...

I heard the same from a member of the scouting staff. Mentioned it on this thread weeks ago.

Edited December 23, 2018 by Crimpshrine

[JBiz]

Just now, 47er said:

Well I'll leave it here----Ben does not seem to be making a success of his "wide attacking role" and, for that matter, neither does anyone else.

Its about time the manager woke up before we drop further down the league.

Glass half full says the setup hasn’t done bad since we are safe and mid table.

Subtle adjustments would be my suggestion personally on the system. An out and out winger would definitely be on my list to improve our attacking.

[tomphil]

Good job some weren't around in the days of Jimmy Quin or early days of Jason Wilcox if they are crying about a few moans and grumbles in the BB direction hell fire those guys got roasted at times by certain sections of the crowd. BB reminds me a bit of the early Wilcox in a skinny can't seem to put a foot right kind of way but what Jason did was get his head down and graft and he at a young age developed skin thicker than a rhino. I'd suggest BB and those seeking offence on his behalf do the same and quickly.

Ben doesn't have to be a worldie no one is expecting that but whether he, the manager or anyone else likes it or not he IS a 7 million pound footballer and will have a contract and lifestyle to match so what he needs to do is get his head down and at least graft for the 10 or 20 mins he's actually asked to do something. You need confidence and bit of support to play good football but you don't need that to run about a lot. What he needs to do is try and win people over and justify his cameos when other people are left out in favour of him, i'm sure that doesn't go down right well with some in the squad !

Personally I think people should stay right off his back but definitely direct all questions about Brereton to Mr Mowbray I really feel his handling of it, the signing and the use of him on the pitch is poor but it's up to him to get something out of the lad or drop him for a while.

[roversfan99]

2 minutes ago, Biz said:

You keep referencing forest so that’s what else you’re basing it on for a start.

Passing comment is one thing - suggesting he shouldn’t be in the squad? That’s a complete different suggestion in my eyes. It’s effectively saying he’s not even worthy of a chance.

I thought KP was dissapointing but do I think he’s done enough to warrant a shot from the bench? That’s not my decision because I don’t take training. I wouldn’t be to impressed though by either of them in those roles today - but that’s not to say it’s time to bin either off to the u23s.

Funny that you mention Gladwin.. I mean I remember one real poor moment, but overall I couldn’t say he’s “a bad un!” Because I never actually got to see him have proper spell. Two knee injuries and surgery curtailed any chance for him, regardless of the tattoos and pints stories on here.

 

I am basing my judgements on him based on his appearances in a Rovers shirt. The only time I remember watching him prior to joining was against Arsenal when he put in a superb performance.

Why do you keep obsessing about training performances? As much as training is obviously critically important, if a player is unable to have an impact on game then his training performances become irrelevant. 

We are in an internet messageboard, we dont live in a hypothetical world where we see everything that happens in training and behind the scenes. If for some reason you was picking the team for Leeds away, would you include Kasey Palmer in the matchday squad?

Who said we need to "bin them off?" Take the Brereton situation, hes not a impressing when hes brought on, now I am unconvinced by Joe Nuttall in general but considering his recent hot streak in the reserves, and he has shown that whilst his game is definitely raw, he definitely at least possesses the ability to sniff out a chance and take it. Brereton has had plenty of chances off the bench and not suggested that he warrants further ones any more than Nuttall does, I think you could argue, at this moment in time.

My judgement on Gladwin was nothing to do with the "tattoos and pints stories" that you reference on here. He looked really poor even aside from the Plymouth miss that I presume that you are referring to.

 

[tomphil]

36 minutes ago, 47er said:

More conspiracy theorists Biz?

Not always best pals me and Jimbo but if he is saying that stuff then I think it speaks volumes about the BB situation because if not he'd be all over people putting 2&2 together and maybe getting 5.

[JBiz]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

I am basing my judgements on him based on his appearances in a Rovers shirt. The only time I remember watching him prior to joining was against Arsenal when he put in a superb performance.

Why do you keep obsessing about training performances? As much as training is obviously critically important, if a player is unable to have an impact on game then his training performances become irrelevant. 

We are in an internet messageboard, we dont live in a hypothetical world where we see everything that happens in training and behind the scenes. If for some reason you was picking the team for Leeds away, would you include Kasey Palmer in the matchday squad?

Who said we need to "bin them off?" Take the Brereton situation, hes not a impressing when hes brought on, now I am unconvinced by Joe Nuttall in general but considering his recent hot streak in the reserves, and he has shown that whilst his game is definitely raw, he definitely at least possesses the ability to sniff out a chance and take it. Brereton has had plenty of chances off the bench and not suggested that he warrants further ones any more than Nuttall does, I think you could argue, at this moment in time.

My judgement on Gladwin was nothing to do with the "tattoos and pints stories" that you reference on here. He looked really poor even aside from the Plymouth miss that I presume that you are referring to.

 

Taking someone from the matchday squad is binning them off so to speak.

My choice of team is dependent on paper, I personally would have KP on the bench from what I’ve seen but his reaction in training might be worthy of a start.

I’d like to think that is what picks the first 18. Subjective opinion of the staff on the effort levels and form. Granted, form is poor for both mentioned players but it won’t improve off the pitch.

Gladwin was a poor signing looking at his impact at this point after 16 months. Hopefully we won’t be saying the same about Ben. 

[J*B]

1 hour ago, Mattyblue said:

Interesting to see meadows/Jim Wilkinson, who does have decent sources, I believe, say on Twitter that he’s heard BB and Davenport were not players Mowbray wanted...

Come on now, don't be silly. Mowbray isn't the sort of man to accept that. Venkys are so secretive they only trust a few certain people. There's no way on earth players are being approved by Venkys and signed by Rovers without Mowbrays consent. Non story.

[roversfan99]

Just now, Biz said:

Taking someone from the matchday squad is binning them off so to speak.

My choice of team is dependent on paper, I personally would have KP on the bench from what I’ve seen but his reaction in training might be worthy of a start.

I’d like to think that is what picks the first 18. Subjective opinion of the staff on the effort levels and form. Granted, form is poor for both mentioned players but it won’t improve off the pitch.

Gladwin was a poor signing looking at his impact at this point after 16 months. Hopefully we won’t be saying the same about Ben. 

Mowbray has often stated that he strives for a scenario where its a struggle to name an 18 and leave a few players out. A matchday squad isnt an open and shut case and injuries/poor performance by others will inevitably open the door for him again sooner rather than later.

I personally would have Palmer on the bench, and Brereton would be removed in favour of Nuttall.

Yes Gladwin has been a poor signing, and we all hope (contrary to some) that Brereton turns into anything but. All I am saying is we can only judge Brereton on 4/5 months and thus far I don't see any signs, any glimmers, any raw attributes that could develop into him