Derby vs Rovers post match thread

[RV Blue]

Bell comfortably man of the match tonight (and that’s not saying much). Poor performance overall but we’d all have taken a point prior. Changes needed for Saturday, Smallwood isn’t Championship standard.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

correct. 

1 lost in 8 games but only 2 wins. tho we have taken 5 points against Brentford, Villa and now Derby

 

True, but we wouldn't have taken 3 points from Reading, Millwall and Ipswich.

If we held on against villa the other day it would have been great. As it stands, we are still in the position where our seasons looks like it could go either way. 

[Atko's Engine]

Didn't see the game but going off comments and stats it looks like we got away with one, and gained a massive point in so doing. Picking up points whilst not playing well ought to help us achieve our main realistic aim of consolidation.

Derby are amongst the favourites and will be far more disappointed than us. They've failed to score against a newly promoted team at home; with their outlay and resources that's quite a big minus for them.

[roversfan99]

3 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

I thought Bell was good all game. Nyambe is a defensive full back but he did very well tonight and the season. 

I disagree with dropping Bell for Williams at left back. I would drop Evans not Smallwood for Reed. Agree on Bennett and Rothwell for Palmer and Conway. on Graham, all down to how fit he is and whether he can play 3 games in a week. look shattered in the last 5 mins. lets see 1st

Bell did well in the last half hour but to be honest its a flip of a coin decision. Not much in it. Evans has had a far better season than Smallwood.

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

correct. 

1 lost in 8 games but only 2 wins. tho we have taken 5 points against Brentford, Villa and now Derby

all down to Graham and his fitness. He's 33 years old and I don't think he can play 3 games a week at this level. I would play Brereton at Stoke. Swansea cause Stoke problems and didn't have their main striker on the pitch. 

Ive already said I wouldn't have started Conway in today's game and my thoughts was a player off the bench in certain games using his experience and knowledge. The odd start in games but tonight game was the game for Conway from the start

You keep saying he cant play x and he cant play y but he has played 90 minutes quite a few times. His fitness is seemingly a bit better than we give him credit for, hes always been slow but it doesnt stop him being effective. He was excellent when he came on again. Ask Dack who he wants to play with and I bet I can guess the answer.

Lets play Graham rather than picking someone solely based on the logic of Swansea apparently causing Stoke problems in a game you didnt see and one in which they failed to score. Brereton should be next in line with Armstrong not taking his chance.

[Atko's Engine]

Bizarre how some posters have Smallwood as MOTM, others say how he was worst player on the pitch.  How can that be?? I guess the truth is somewhere in between. I like him, though his abilities are limited. He can do a spoiling job in this type of game.

The real plus from all this is that we have Mulgrew, Rodwell, Rothwell, Reed, Davenport, Brereton all to return or start in future games, options a plenty there. They'll all get their chances in a tough, long season and will all most likely contribute to better performances against lesser opposition as the season builds as will Armstrong, Dack & Palmer who by all accounts were fairly anonymous tonight.

 

[roversfan99]

Just now, Atko's Engine said:

Bizarre how some posters have Smallwood as MOTM, others say how he was worst player on the pitch.  How can that be?? I guess the truth is somewhere in between. I like him, though his abilities are limited. He can do a spoiling job in this type of game.

The real plus from all this is that we have Mulgrew, Rodwell, Rothwell, Reed, Davenport, Brereton all to return or start in future games, options a plenty there. They'll all get their chances in a tough, long season and will all most likely contribute to better performances against lesser opposition as the season builds as will Armstrong, Dack & Palmer who by all accounts were fairly anonymous tonight.

 

The problem is, spoiling only gets you so far, you need to then keep the ball otherwise you are in a cycle of attacks for the opposition.

Agreed on the 3 you mention at the bottom. I think all 3 were equally poor, Palmer seems to be getting the brunt of the criticism but they were all poor.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

1 minute ago, Atko's Engine said:

Bizarre how some posters have Smallwood as MOTM, others say how he was worst player on the pitch.  How can that be?? I guess the truth is somewhere in between. I like him, though his abilities are limited. He can do a spoiling job in this type of game.

The real plus from all this is that we have Mulgrew, Rodwell, Rothwell, Reed, Davenport, Brereton all to return or start in future games, options a plenty there. They'll all get their chances in a tough, long season and will all most likely contribute to better performances against lesser opposition as the season builds as will Armstrong, Dack & Palmer who by all accounts were fairly anonymous tonight.

 

I agree with you about Smallwood. I didn't see the game but it's worrying that some people think he was our best and some think he was our worst, I don't get that one.

What I do think is we can't have both Evans and Smallwood in central midfield at this level. We need more creativity, especially if Bennett comes back on the right hand side. Either Reed or Rothwell need to be given a chance in there or even both of them in the team with Palmer dropping out. With Stoke away up next we'll need four in midfield that actually contribute something if we don't want a repeat of tonight's performance.

[47er]

Palmer is turning out to be a typical Chelsea loanee. As if he'll ever play for Chelsea. They just hoover up players by the dozen and the only time they're in London is for away games.

Time to roll the dice in midfield TM.

[Atko's Engine]

4 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

The problem is, spoiling only gets you so far, you need to then keep the ball otherwise you are in a cycle of attacks for the opposition.

I agree it's a tactic with limitations, but it's not Smallwood's fault if those selected around him aren't able to make proper use the balls he wins. Though I accept he can improve his basic passing sometimes; he's far from the complete midfielder!

At this stage of the season against the likes of Derby away, I understand a cautious line up from Mowbray, even if it is a tad frustrating.  My hope is that as the season progresses and the newbies buy into Mowbray's teamwork ethos , and each player gets to know their teammates' strengths & weaknesses, we'll end up in most games starting with a soldier (seemingly Smallwood, Evans or Reed) alongside of an artist (Rothwell, Davenport or possibly Rodwell) to complement each other. I like the way this could shape up, and if we can grind out some plucky draws against title contenders whilst on the way to that stage then even better.

[Butty]

24 minutes ago, Atko's Engine said:

Bizarre how some posters have Smallwood as MOTM, others say how he was worst player on the pitch.  How can that be?? I guess the truth is somewhere in between. I like him, though his abilities are limited. He can do a spoiling job in this type of game.

The real plus from all this is that we have Mulgrew, Rodwell, Rothwell, Reed, Davenport, Brereton all to return or start in future games, options a plenty there. They'll all get their chances in a tough, long season and will all most likely contribute to better performances against lesser opposition as the season builds as will Armstrong, Dack & Palmer who by all accounts were fairly anonymous tonight.

 

Smallwood was neither MOTM or the worst player on the pitch tonight. The whole team lacked quality going forward so he wasn’t the only one who gave the ball away a few times, I’ve been critical of him this season but there’s no way that Smallwood stood out as one of our worst performers tonight. It was a performance which lacked any attacking quality but we battled well defensively and Smallwood played his part in that.

[Earlydoors]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

Very poor performance, especially the first 60 minutes. Wave after wave of attack, we stole a point which is a bonus.

The lack of control in central midfield was startling and it needs changing in there. Smallwood is no more than a squad player for me and if we have signed 3 central midfielders and none can threaten his place, we have a problem. Evans has dipped slightly but was better than Smallwood for me. When we are under the cosh we seem unable to get our foot on it and manage the game.

Mowbray got his team selection and tactics totally wrong, theres no dressing that up. He shouldnt have picked Conway but I was at least impressed that he realised that and didnt wait to change it.

Raya was at times embarrassing. Some of his handling, decision making and kicking would have been hilarious had I not been a Rovers fan.

Graham my man of the match, he has to start every game he is fit at the moment. Some terrific hold up and should have an assist but from a rare sitter by Dack.

Armstrong doesnt look like a Championship striker by any means. Dack was not in the game at all, and Palmer likewise.

Nyambe was decent, but offered nothing again going forward. Bell was as shaky as anyone up until the last half hour when he was much improved. Williams was fine, Lenihan is really poor on the ball but you cant fault his committment.

Mulgrew, Reed, Rothwell, Bennett and Graham should come in for Bell, Smallwood, Palmer, Conway and Armstrong I think at Stoke.

Derby were poor too, they ran out of ideas and a better side would have scored a hatful tonight.

Pretty fair summary I thought.

Smallwood is good off the ball and keeps his defensive shape but whenever his zone is threatened can't impact the play. We are crying out for a midfielder with composure on the ball. It could become Reid.

TM started fast buzzy lads up front to stop Derby playing out from the back but we couldn't squeeze them as it came into midfield. Class bit of management to realise we couldn't hold up the ball and bring Graham on so soon. He was MOTM for me. Battled for everything and won most things. Set up Dack- how the hell did he miss?

Nyambe also v strong. Raya made good saves at key moments. 

Stone wall Armstrong penalty.

Bossed the last 20 mins.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Earlydoors

[tomphil]

Definitely a point earned tonight, looked a shoddy performance but we clearly went there to spoil and sometimes you have to do that.  We didn't do it nearly enough in the relegation season so I can see the logic in it now.  Risky strategy but we aren't really strong enough to go and try it on at Derby I don't think, some places we should though.

[Husky]

Bit of a strange one really as possession wise we were 'outplayed' though for all their endeavour Derby didn't really create much did they? . . .I can't really remember them having a decent chance - one tonked over the bar from long range and a free kick from way out hitting the bar, . Everything else seemed well blocked/defended. I'd say Dack's chance was far better than anything they had.

One thing of note again is that we were simply appalling from set pieces. These are the kind of games you can even nick if you 'do an England 2018 WC job'.

After our season so far, I'm not quite sure whether to think we should be pleased that we are normally 'hard to beat' or go the other way and think that we find it too difficult to win and are already drawing too many.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Husky

[Boroblue]

5 minutes ago, Husky said:

Bit of a strange one really as possession wise we were 'outplayed' though for all their endeavour Derby didn't really create much did they? . . .I can't really remember them having a decent chance really - one tonked over the bar from long range and a free kick from way out hitting the bar, . Everything else seemed well blocked/defended. I'd say Dack's chance was far better than anything they had.

One thing of note again is that we were simply appalling from set pieces. These are the kind of games you can even nick if you 'do an England 2018 WC job'.

After out season so far, I'm not quite sure whether to think we should be pleased that we are normally 'hard to beat' or go the other way and think that we find it too difficult to win and are already drawing too many.

That final paragraph is a great overall analysis and just about sums everything up. No extra needed

[roversfan99]

9 minutes ago, Atko's Engine said:

I agree it's a tactic with limitations, but it's not Smallwood's fault if those selected around him aren't able to make proper use the balls he wins. Though I accept he can improve his basic passing sometimes; he's far from the complete midfielder!

At this stage of the season against the likes of Derby away, I understand a cautious line up from Mowbray, even if it is a tad frustrating.  My hope is that as the season progresses and the newbies buy into Mowbray's teamwork ethos , and each player gets to know their teammates' strengths & weaknesses, we'll end up in most games starting with a soldier (seemingly Smallwood, Evans or Reed) alongside of an artist (Rothwell, Davenport or possibly Rodwell) to complement each other. I like the way this could shape up, and if we can grind out some plucky draws against title contenders whilst on the way to that stage then even better.

But I think Smallwood is as guilty as anyone of giving up possession. 

The soldier and artist analogy I get to an extent but even if you are one, you need to be a bit of the other. For example, Smallwood is a soldier but he needs to at least be competent on the ball and in possession, same with Lenihan. No good if you win the ball back and give it straight back again. Conversely, our artists need to do at least their fair share of hard work.

I dont think the side was more cautious than normal, I just feel that he got his tactics totally wrong, something he as good as admitted with changes that made us improve.

Also, no idea why Smallwood is on set piece duty. He is shocking at them.

[JBiz]

I think Evans is probably is tidier, better technique and passer, but for me Richie is pretty much the most robust tackler in the team. It might be a matter of taste because I always liked the gritty stuff.

There’s no avoiding that Richie has shown at times, a lack of distribution and poor touch in positions further up the pitch. Sometimes a bit wooden in possession in tight areas.

I think part of that is the key to why he’s had some stick, but also it’s always been one of those things - if a player doesn’t get into those positions, they’re likely not criticised as much - The game will pass Evans by at times but Richie never shirks a challenge, always helps the defence out and never fails to press aggressively. Even with that said, I think Corry is in his best spell for the club since arriving - Feb till now. Looks fitter than ever - not far away from Bennett and Richie for work rate but not in the correct positions enough for me.

I think Harrison Reed, or Rothwell are the midfielder we need next to the more combative Smallwood - to put a foot on it. Reed looks to have a real tidy touch, and we know Rothwell has promise too.

Maybe the safety first approach with two more “battling” centre midfielders is in Tony’s thoughts for the more tricky games? Perhaps we may come to see a more adventurous approach if we continue to pick up points, putting us in a position of safety? Either way, I’m quite happy with 11 points after 8 games, obviously never simple; but extrapolate and we are comfortable.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Biz

[Fraserkirky]

First game I’ve missed this season.

Elliot Bennett never shirks a tackle either and has all the defensive attributes that Ritchie has. He has been marvelous when played in Central midfield. Reed looks like a quality all round midfielder. 

The problem with Mowbrays 4-2-3-1 is he is using two defensive midfielders with two defensive Full backs, Bell more so wants to get forward but he has been instructed to stay disciplined. Nyambe might be the player of the season so far, and has been excellent defensively, hardly ever gets gubbed and wins the ball back for us constantly. Cafu he is not though.

We have a serious problem of getting players into the oppositions final 1/3, in this system. That equates to less chances. It’s fine if Dacky takes his chance and we nick games, but it’s not sustainable though. You will have plenty of games where we get mauled in the possession stats like tonight. 

Really think the 4-4-1-1 which we saw periodically last year would work. 

Raya

Nyambe Lenihan Mulgrew Bell

Bennett Evans Reed Rothwell

Dack 

Brereton

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by Fraserkirky

[jim mk2]

Just now, Fraserkirky said:

Really think the 4-4-1-1 which we saw periodically last year would work. 

Raya

Nyambe Lenihan Mulgrew Bell

Bennett Evans Reed Rothwell

Dack 

Brereton

There's no one in that team to hold the ball up. You can't leave Graham out of any Rovers side at present.. 

[joey_big_nose]

I think at Stoke we will potentially start the team that finished the game tonight. Idea being to out work the opposition. 

[Fraserkirky]

Just now, jim mk2 said:

There's no one in that team to hold the ball up. You can't leave Graham out of any Rovers side at present.. 

I hope Brereton can improve, and we can use Graham from the bench. He better for that money.

[joey_big_nose]

2 minutes ago, Fraserkirky said:

First game I’ve missed this season.

Elliot Bennett never shirks a tackle either and has all the defensive attributes that Ritchie has. He has been marvelous when played in Central midfield. Reed looks like a quality all round midfielder. 

The problem with Mowbrays 4-2-3-1 is he is using two defensive midfielders with two defensive Full backs, Bell more so wants to get forward but he has been instructed to stay disciplined. Nyambe might be the player of the season so far, and has been excellent defensively, hardly ever gets gubbed and wins the ball back for us constantly. Cafu he is not though.

We have a serious problem of getting players into the oppositions final 1/3, in this system. That equates to less chances. It’s fine if Dacky takes his chance and we nick games, but it’s not sustainable though. You will have plenty of games where we get mauled in the possession stats like tonight. 

Really think the 4-4-1-1 which we saw periodically last year would work. 

Raya

Nyambe Lenihan Mulgrew Bell

Bennett Evans Reed Rothwell

Dack 

Brereton

 

Question on this - how would 4411 be much different to 4231? Don't really see it? 

Same issues you have highlighted persist - defensive midfielders and defensive fullbacks?

[Silas]

51 minutes ago, 47er said:

Palmer is turning out to be a typical Chelsea loanee. As if he'll ever play for Chelsea. They just hoover up players by the dozen and the only time they're in London is for away games.

Time to roll the dice in midfield TM.

You gotta wonder what promises have been made to Chelsea about match time in order to get him here.

As he seems to be getting way more crack of the whip then some other midfielders that have performed far better. 

[JBiz]

3 minutes ago, Fraserkirky said:

First game I’ve missed this season.

Elliot Bennett never shirks a tackle either and has all the defensive attributes that Ritchie has. He has been marvelous when played in Central midfield. Reed looks like a quality all round midfielder. 

The problem with Mowbrays 4-2-3-1 is he is using two defensive midfielders with two defensive Full backs, Bell more so wants to get forward but he has been instructed to stay disciplined. Nyambe might be the player of the season so far, and has been excellent defensively, hardly ever gets gubbed and wins the ball back for us constantly. Cafu he is not though.

We have a serious problem of getting players into the oppositions final 1/3, in this system. That equates to less chances. It’s fine if Dacky takes his chance and we nick games, but it’s not sustainable though. You will have plenty of games where we get mauled in the possession stats like tonight. 

Really think the 4-4-1-1 which we saw periodically last year would work. 

Raya

Nyambe Lenihan Mulgrew Bell

Bennett Evans Reed Rothwell

Dack 

Brereton

 

From what I saw, in spells we sort of ended a mix of (in the latter parts of the second half) tonight;

Raya 

Nyambe Lenihan Williams 

Reed Evans Smallwood Bennett Bell

Dack Graham

And;

Raya 

Nyambe Lenihan Williams Bell

Reed Evans Smallwood Bennett

Dack

Graham

I think we might see a change upfront with a lack of width performing. I liked the posters suggestion of a 4312 with a higher line, Dack behind DG and AA or BB with 3 of Rothwell, Smallwood, Evans, Bennett or Reed in the centre.

I think we’re more likely to see a variation of the 5 at the back though. We’ve used it in games quite a lot under Mowbray, maybe not from the start but in many games. Certainly made us look tighter tonight imo.

[chaddyrovers]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

Bell did well in the last half hour but to be honest its a flip of a coin decision. Not much in it. Evans has had a far better season than Smallwood.

You keep saying he cant play x and he cant play y but he has played 90 minutes quite a few times. His fitness is seemingly a bit better than we give him credit for, hes always been slow but it doesnt stop him being effective. He was excellent when he came on again. Ask Dack who he wants to play with and I bet I can guess the answer.

Lets play Graham rather than picking someone solely based on the logic of Swansea apparently causing Stoke problems in a game you didnt see and one in which they failed to score. Brereton should be next in line with Armstrong not taking his chance.

Bell was good all game. Smallwood was better today then Evans. 

Has Graham played 90 mins in 3 games in a week this season? Or even last season? Wouldnt say he was excellent tonight. But much better than Armstrong up front. 

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by chaddyrovers

[RevidgeBlue]

2 hours ago, Oldgregg86 said:

Happy with a point. Delighted with one after that performance. Absolutely bizarre starting line up. Why Tony has signed, what is it , 7 players and only two start. We needed signing that could strengthen the starting 11, go straight in and make a difference. Nyambe was the man of the match easily. Evans and Smallwood again run around putting tackles in but it's when they are in possession that's the problem. We need someone like a, oh I don't know, reed Bennett or rothwell in their who can pass/drive  forward when we have the ball not constantly do a 8 yard pass to the centre backs. A big difference following on from that was how much we missed mulgrews composure and distribution, his ability to find a man and play out from the defence showed today. We we're bad, derby were bad and the game was awful. Thank God it's over

Didn't see tonight's game but the thing that has always worried me about TM is that he is too loyal to players already at the Club. All his spiel over the summer was along the lines of getting a few players in to assist the ones already there I.e. pad out the squad as opposed to improving the team.

We're also drawing far too many games. Like another poster said I Can't decide whether we've made a solid start or whether it's rather worrying that we only have two wins from eight games. You do get the impression that wins will be fairly thin on the ground this season and there will no doubt  be games and periods where we play well and are unlucky to lose so we will need a reasonable win ratio to compensate.

Edited September 18, 2018 by RevidgeBlue