Attendances

[Paul]

19 minutes ago, Stuart said:

I think the point that @OldEwoodBlue is making is a very simple one: 

£15 per ticket is too much for a lot of people.

What has got his nose out of joint - and as always it’s the retaliator who gets a yellow card - is that the answer to that statement seems to be:

Tough, go and do something else that is within your budget because I’m happy with the current set up.

@Paul I get that you are aggrieved at the perceived tone but equally your post talks a lot about your own circumstances without considering others’. You just believe that your post is more polite while others take offence that their affordability concerns are not shared by fellow fans.

I can't comment as to whether or not £15 is too much for some people. I simply don't know though I'm quite capable of understanding there households where income is so low £15 is a problem. Finding the right words here is difficult but I'd suggest if the household budget is very tight whether the ticket price is £10 or £15 is unlikely to make a difference.

What I cannot understand is just how the club is meant to gain income if we go below £15? There is absolutely no evidence the 18000 OldeWoodBlue suggests will come are going to. Please don't drag up Oxford - we all know the debate and it distracts from the season long issue.

I have not given out a yellow card!!!

It was not me who suggested "tough go and do something else."

It's not a perceived tone Stuart. Those of us who chose to buy an ST upfront have been described as "elitist," "wealthy," "super fans." I'd suggest there are a large number of fans at Ewood who don't match that description. I suggest @OldEwoodBlue goes on the BBE, identifies some ST holders and tells them that is his view. How he gets on will be interesting.

What I did was to explain my personal circumstances and why I need an ST. Allowing those who want an ST, regardless of the payment method, doesn't mean I disregard the needs or wants of others. We have 20,000 empty seats,  there is plenty of room to accommodate many different requirements.

It is OEB who disregards the needs of others. Along the length of the JWL we have disabled fans with a variety of needs. There carers sit nearby and I presume have STs. These people, like me, need the security of knowing where they will sit. As an aside it can be extremely stressful for some when there routine is disrupted. My own son will be unhappy if I simply swap seats with him - I'm not joking.

The only remarks I make about ticket prices are an ST is very good value. I've made no remarks to suggest I don't care about affordability for others. What I would suggest is if one's disposable income is so tight that £15 is a problem the individual might question whether or not he/she should attend at all. Dropping to £10 doesn't really make a difference, possibly £5 would. All I can say on this is if I only had £15 to spare I wouldn't be spending it at Ewood.

[OldEwoodBlue]

3 hours ago, Paul said:

 

@OldEwoodBlue

If everyone is paying £15 or whatever I'm OK with this provided my ST does not increase. I still believe an ST holder who pays up front should receive a good deal but in the interest of filling the ground I'll ignore it.

I'm struggling with the view holding a season ticket makes me an elitist, wealthy, super fan. I put aside money every month to cover all my one off household expenses. This ranges from the water bill, car insurance, Christmas through to season tickets and a host of other things. I fully understand there are people who for one reason or another cannot or do not wish to budget in this way.

If there are no season tickets we will probably stop going. Why?

1. My son is disabled. I need guaranteed seats with a good line of vision. Ideally these are aisle seats approximately on the halfway line. I need to be as sure as possible no one will stand up in front of my lad. I need as few steps to the seats as possible

2. Our current STs guarantee this

3. I do not want to have to remember to buy tickets every home game

4. If there is some form of "guarantee your seat" as with cup games. I do not want this. I'm too busy to remember.

5. I do not want to worry about my tickets turning up in the post

If you want to piss off 8600 fans by describing them as wealthy, elitist super fans you've certainly achieved it with this one. It's nice to know after 37 years of having an ST, in that time I was often buying four, I've never really been welcome in the ground in the eyes of some fans.

I find your posts in this tone quite appalling. It seems you have a severe problem with people who chose to run their lives differently or hold other opinions.

I suggest you have a long hard think and decide if this is reasonable behaviour.

 

missing the point.

you still have all those things such as seat etc guaranteed with your membership. You have a members card just like now. it autorenews annually so even simpler. Nothing to remember at all.

You pay the same price per game as every other fan. £15. i.e. ALL fans equal.

[OldEwoodBlue]

22 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

we shouldn't get rid of season ticket holders at all. Some people have been one for many many years. Ive had mine over 20 years and I have my current seat for 6 years and I wouldn't want to move anywhere else. 

You dont lose anything Chris. You become a member (think of the words Season Ticket replaced by the word Member). Same seat. Dont panic.

20 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

well I'm sorry Stuart but season tickets holders should get the better deals as we keep attending every home game. 

This is what I mean by Elitist attitude.

I have a season ticket so that makes me a better more entitled fan than others.

Sorry... It does not !!!

 

All fans should be treated with equal value and the emphasis should 100% be filling the ground that Jack built for us, rather than all this "I'm a ST holder so you can't allow tickets cheaper than mine" nonsense.

I advocate ALL TICKETS to be a flat affordable price and a full stadium.

 

[Paul]

17 minutes ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

missing the point.

you still have all those things such as seat etc guaranteed with your membership. You have a members card just like now. it autorenews annually so even simpler. Nothing to remember at all.

You pay the same price per game as every other fan. £15. i.e. ALL fans equal.

 

You can see I agreed with £15/game for everyone which is alreadty available to anyone who buys an ST!

Missing the point? You used the term "membership" and described season tickets as "outdated," saying they should be outdated. Initially you did not mention this membership would carry all the same benefits as being a season ticket holder. In another post you said the following:

"Come on Mr Waggott, show your leadership and be brave. It is no longer 1970 in our great town. We need 18,000 average gates and your task is to deliver that. Think outside of this box I have to type in. We need to innovate our whole approach to selling our product to our (potential) customers."

"As with everything in life, the innovative forward thinkers will lead the way in change. Huddersfield as one example have taken this route to answer your question."

From what I now understand the existing season ticket would be replaced by a membership that carries with it all the existing benefits of an ST. In other words change the name of the product. There would be a change from the current payment schedules from the eight or ten months, I don't know how long it is, direct debit to a 12 month payment schedule. Other than reducing the price to £15 for everyone (already available via an ST) can you explain the innovative out of the box thinking? I'm unable to see it. From what I can gather it would be membership holders who make one annual payment who become the wealthy, elitist super fans you chose to deride and dismiss because they are "Opportunities for the few keeping the many away from Ewood (and other grounds)" Given we have 8600 ST holders and 2-3000 walk ons I'm wondering who "the few" are? My impression is "the few" make up +/- 70% of the gate. Are you suggesting that we have 8600 ST holders 20000 have decided not to attend? The bulk of the Ewood crowd has always been ST holders.

You favour auto renew. This is a con which has significant benefits for the supplier and none for the consumer. Are you unaware of how upset people get when they realise they have signed a "continuous authority" and suddenly find they've paid for something they no longer want. Personally I wouldn't go near anything which auto-renewed. The whole point of auto-renew from a business perspective is to attempt to catch out the consumer. Give it a year and there would be uproar on here when fans discover they have been auto-renewed and can't get out of it.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Paul

[Proudtobeblue&white]

1 minute ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

You dont lose anything Chris. You become a member (think of the words Season Ticket replaced by the word Member). Same seat. Dont panic.

This is what I mean by Elitist attitude.

I have a season ticket so that makes me a better more entitled fan than others.

Sorry... It does not !!!

 

All fans should be treated with equal value and the emphasis should 100% be filling the ground that Jack built for us, rather than all this "I'm a ST holder so you can't allow tickets cheaper than mine" nonsense.

I advocate ALL TICKETS to be a flat affordable price and a full stadium.

 

I'm all in favour of this. As others have pointed out, we have become a shell of what Jack created. Waggott it seems has no incentive to be creative as there appears very little pressure from Loonland to do so. Cut costs at all costs. Milk the away fans as much as you can. Inconvenience your own fans by shutting down parts of the ground and move without consultation. I don't see any creativity at all in the nearly empty boardroom.

[OldEwoodBlue]

28 minutes ago, Paul said:

I can't comment as to whether or not £15 is too much for some people. I simply don't know though I'm quite capable of understanding there households where income is so low £15 is a problem. Finding the right words here is difficult but I'd suggest if the household budget is very tight whether the ticket price is £10 or £15 is unlikely to make a difference.

What I cannot understand is just how the club is meant to gain income if we go below £15? There is absolutely no evidence the 18000 OldeWoodBlue suggests will come are going to. Please don't drag up Oxford - we all know the debate and it distracts from the season long issue.

I have not given out a yellow card!!!

It was not me who suggested "tough go and do something else."

It's not a perceived tone Stuart. Those of us who chose to buy an ST upfront have been described as "elitist," "wealthy," "super fans." I'd suggest there are a large number of fans at Ewood who don't match that description. I suggest @OldEwoodBlue goes on the BBE, identifies some ST holders and tells them that is his view. How he gets on will be interesting.

What I did was to explain my personal circumstances and why I need an ST. Allowing those who want an ST, regardless of the payment method, doesn't mean I disregard the needs or wants of others. We have 20,000 empty seats,  there is plenty of room to accommodate many different requirements.

It is OEB who disregards the needs of others. Along the length of the JWL we have disabled fans with a variety of needs. There carers sit nearby and I presume have STs. These people, like me, need the security of knowing where they will sit. As an aside it can be extremely stressful for some when there routine is disrupted. My own son will be unhappy if I simply swap seats with him - I'm not joking.

The only remarks I make about ticket prices are an ST is very good value. I've made no remarks to suggest I don't care about affordability for others. What I would suggest is if one's disposable income is so tight that £15 is a problem the individual might question whether or not he/she should attend at all. Dropping to £10 doesn't really make a difference, possibly £5 would. All I can say on this is if I only had £15 to spare I wouldn't be spending it at Ewood.

Paul,

    you are very defensive of your seat but nowhere have I proposed a free for all without reserved seating. Season Ticket format replaced by Membership format.

No idea at all why you have gone off talking about disabled fans.

 

You can choose to be a member and pay up front (as you do now) and keep your seat. This is your choice to pay up front (because you can) but the price is £15 per game.

You can choose to be a member and pay in 12 monthly installments and keep your seat.a This is your choice and the price is £15 per game.

Members get additional benefits in return for their membership.

 

You can choose to go to any match as a walk on because of the many reasons and personal circumstances Chaddy and others have explained a zillion times but the price per game is £15.

 

I can easily afford a season ticket Paul.

I am not talking about myself....

I am talking about all Rovers fans being treated equally because they are.

I am talking about the stadium being full so all fans get better value for money with a good atmosphere.

I am more than happy to discuss with any ST holder from the BBE why they are not a "better fan" than me.

Anyone saying they are a better fan because I have a ST or my personal circumstance allows me to pay up front is indeed displaying an elitist attitude.

 

You could argue that the regular 400 (or whatever it was) late walk ons who pay the Waggott Tax are our best fans as they contribute most to the club.

[OldEwoodBlue]

Paul to answer your latest point without quoting.

Apologies if you misunderstood.

You got it now about renaming the product but also changing the format to pricing being equal for all.

When I am talking about STs being outdated. I refer the the ST format.

 

I the old days the well off had a ST in the Nuttall Street stand and the working man stood on the terraces.

Keeping this old ST format is just not in keeping with the way people live their lives these days. Apart from us older generation). ?

Ripping up the old format and changing to a membership model with fair pricing FOR ALL would be innovative and display leadership and bravery.

Tweaking ST prices and coming up with mini season tickets (pricing shackled by the full ST price), as Stuart points out, will never achieve a single thing.

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by OldEwoodBlue

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Folk won't pay if the product is rubbish.Only a sustained challenge for promotion and ultimately a return to the top flight will bring fans back through the turnstiles.We are miles away from that goal,absolutely miles away.

The football is turgid,the atmosphere non existent..the whole 'Ewood Experience' is rank at present and it bloody hurts to say so.

This thread,like the club,is going in circles.

Edited October 16, 2019 by SIMON GARNERS 194

[Stuart]

3 hours ago, Paul said:

1) I can't comment as to whether or not £15 is too much for some people. I simply don't know though I'm quite capable of understanding there households where income is so low £15 is a problem. Finding the right words here is difficult but I'd suggest if the household budget is very tight whether the ticket price is £10 or £15 is unlikely to make a difference.

2) What I cannot understand is just how the club is meant to gain income if we go below £15? There is absolutely no evidence the 18000 OldeWoodBlue suggests will come are going to. Please don't drag up Oxford - we all know the debate and it distracts from the season long issue.

3) I have not given out a yellow card!!!

4) It was not me who suggested "tough go and do something else."

5) It's not a perceived tone Stuart. Those of us who chose to buy an ST upfront have been described as "elitist," "wealthy," "super fans." I'd suggest there are a large number of fans at Ewood who don't match that description. I suggest @OldEwoodBlue goes on the BBE, identifies some ST holders and tells them that is his view. How he gets on will be interesting.

6) What I did was to explain my personal circumstances and why I need an ST. Allowing those who want an ST, regardless of the payment method, doesn't mean I disregard the needs or wants of others. We have 20,000 empty seats,  there is plenty of room to accommodate many different requirements.

7) It is OEB who disregards the needs of others. Along the length of the JWL we have disabled fans with a variety of needs. There carers sit nearby and I presume have STs. These people, like me, need the security of knowing where they will sit. As an aside it can be extremely stressful for some when there routine is disrupted. My own son will be unhappy if I simply swap seats with him - I'm not joking.

? The only remarks I make about ticket prices are an ST is very good value. I've made no remarks to suggest I don't care about affordability for others. What I would suggest is if one's disposable income is so tight that £15 is a problem the individual might question whether or not he/she should attend at all. Dropping to £10 doesn't really make a difference, possibly £5 would. All I can say on this is if I only had £15 to spare I wouldn't be spending it at Ewood.

Lots to respond to there Paul so apologies for numbering.

1) Please consider yourself very fortunate. My parents can not afford to buy STs (compared to other expenses).

2) Volume. You say don’t drag up Oxford. It worked. Interesting, accessible fixture at the right price. As well as £10 tickets, kids were £1 IIRC. That’s £22 for a family of four instead of £40 - £50. Other “offers” have not.

3) It was an expression.

4) But that is the inference in what you post.

5) It is a perceived tone. OEB perceives your tone to be elitist. It’s not hard to see why he might see it that way.

6) Not sure what you mean by this. The issue is price. Your view is that people should pay because you have decided it represents value for money [to you].

7) I must have missed the part where OEB has discriminated against the needs of disabled fans so I cannot comment.

8.) Again. To you. If enough people agreed with you we would t be having this conversation.

Rovers need to sell 16,000 seats to break even. Rather than look at this in the context of empty seats the current approach of the club directors is to alter pricing for the fans who do attend rather than look at getting some value out of those remaining empty seats. We have more empty than occupied most weeks.

The debate is how we increase attendance (without PL opposition). I say price reduction and/or imaginative one-game offers. You disagree.

Meanwhile nothing changes.

More fans in the ground translates into better support IMHO. That support can be the difference in matches.

[Mashed Potatoes]

11 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Lots to respond to there Paul so apologies for numbering.

1) Please consider yourself very fortunate. My parents can not afford to buy STs (compared to other expenses).

2) Volume. You say don’t drag up Oxford. It worked. Interesting, accessible fixture at the right price. As well as £10 tickets, kids were £1 IIRC. That’s £22 for a family of four instead of £40 - £50. Other “offers” have not.

3) It was an expression.

4) But that is the inference in what you post.

5) It is a perceived tone. OEB perceives your tone to be elitist. It’s not hard to see why he might see it that way.

6) Not sure what you mean by this. The issue is price. Your view is that people should pay because you have decided it represents value for money [to you].

7) I must have missed the part where OEB has discriminated against the needs of disabled fans so I cannot comment.

8.) Again. To you. If enough people agreed with you we would t be having this conversation.

Rovers need to sell 16,000 seats to break even. Rather than look at this in the context of empty seats the current approach of the club directors is to alter pricing for the fans who do attend rather than look at getting some value out of those remaining empty seats. We have more empty than occupied most weeks.

The debate is how we increase attendance (without PL opposition). I say price reduction and/or imaginative one-game offers. You disagree.

Meanwhile nothing changes.

More fans in the ground translates into better support IMHO. That support can be the difference in matches.

Stuart, I think the club needs a lot more than 16,000 seats to break even. According to published accounts the club seems to be operating on a loss before transfers of approx £8m per year. If we assume on average each attendee at a home game brings in approx £20 profit with ticket/food/ programme sales then over 23 home games a season we need to increase gates by 17000 to 18000 - ie we need to be around capacity of 31000 to 32000 with our current average attendance of 14000.

[Stuart]

Just now, Mashed Potatoes said:

Stuart, I think the club needs a lot more than 16,000 seats to break even. According to published accounts the club seems to be operating on a loss before transfers of approx £8m per year. If we assume on average each attendee at a home game brings in approx £20 profit with ticket/food/ programme sales then over 23 home games a season we need to increase gates by 17000 to 18000 - ie we need to be around capacity of 31000 to 32000 with our current average attendance of 14000.

Waggott telling fibs then? But why?

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/17245018.rovers-need-crowds-of-16000-to-break-even-waggott/

[Mashed Potatoes]

Just now, Stuart said:

Waggott telling fibs then? But why?

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/17245018.rovers-need-crowds-of-16000-to-break-even-waggott/

Thanks , I hadn't seen that. I notice that he says we need the 16k to break even "each game" - maybe he is assuming a basic level of funding each year guaranteed from the owners with any excess having to be requested ? Don't know.

[tomphil]

Match by match cheap discounts are open to a whole host of factors and subjective for many part time punters.  Only way to guarantee a good uptake on these things and make it worthwhile is a significant ST price slash or discount selected attractive fixtures now and again.

It's as simple as that really without the Prem or a spending spree on quality players and a charge to the top as in the past but we'd need a new gaffer for that and a clever way around FFP, oh and owners who wanted promotion not hide spare cash in 'investment gamble' players instead. Just like on the pitch and in the managers mind it's all getting a little bit complicated on here when what it needs is a simple tried and tested approach.

Quid a kid on a midweek fixture in half term that might turn 11,500 into 12k fair enough nothing wrong with that but to really drive it forward they need to be more bold and bite the bullet around what should be games with bigger gates than are likely to actually turn out.

 

[Mattyblue]

Club are expecting 1,500 to buy that 3 game ticket.

Why? Hasn’t it been put on the record with the FF that these match bundles never particularly sell more than a few hundred? Why would it be different this time, especially with the club at a bit of low ebb. 

Also, they hope being on TV will show Ewood as a good visual spectacle and we get shown again. An enormous empty stand behind one of the goals ain’t going to help with that, is it!?

All very odd decision making down there.

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/17978793.rovers-aiming-boost-atmosphere-income-ewood-games/

 

[OldEwoodBlue]

Another story in direct response to a BRFCS thread.

Greg has his targets. Tony has his targets. Greg missed his target because Tony lost against Charlton.

I was surprised to learn this much lauded 1875 club only has 1800 members.

[Stuart]

3 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

Club are expecting 1,500 to buy that 3 game ticket.

Why? Hasn’t it been put on the record with the FF that these match bundles never particularly sell more than a few hundred? Why would it be different this time, especially with the club at a bit of low ebb. 

Also, they hope being on TV will show Ewood as a good visual spectacle and we get shown again. An enormous empty stand behind one of the goals ain’t going to help with that, is it!?

All very odd decision making down there.

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/17978793.rovers-aiming-boost-atmosphere-income-ewood-games/

 

#keepthemupstairs

[Mattyblue]

As you know I totally disagree and I’m not seeing much in the way of ‘marginal gains’ from it either with our home performances. 

But surely Coar must be in cloud cuckoo land with the rest of them down there if he thinks Ewood will look in any way a positive ‘visual spectacle’ today (on or off the pitch).

Edited October 19, 2019 by Mattyblue

[tomphil]

3 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

Club are expecting 1,500 to buy that 3 game ticket.

Why? Hasn’t it been put on the record with the FF that these match bundles never particularly sell more than a few hundred? Why would it be different this time, especially with the club at a bit of low ebb. 

Also, they hope being on TV will show Ewood as a good visual spectacle and we get shown again. An enormous empty stand behind one of the goals ain’t going to help with that, is it!?

All very odd decision making down there.

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/17978793.rovers-aiming-boost-atmosphere-income-ewood-games/

 

Why did they expect to sell so many more this season than last ?

Why won't they acknowledge they goofed by putting prices up last season and not trying to tap into the promotion 'bounce' but instead more or less nipping it in the bud ?

Also what about the stuff on the park and supporters long running concerns about the defence, boring style at home, terrible first 45s nearly every game for years ?

Cloud cuckoo land some of that lot they still seem to be trading on Agnews words ' a bit of success and they'll flock back'  !

[JHRover]

They're all missing the point. There's still no acceptance or recognition that the club's actions over the last few years is probably the single biggest factor in the falling numbers at Ewood.

All about self preservation and turning responsibility over to the fans for not being committed enough. 

[Stuart]

2 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

As you know I totally disagree and I’m not seeing much in the way of ‘marginal gains’ from it either with our home performances. 

But surely Coar must be in cloud cuckoo land with the rest of them down there if he thinks Ewood will look in any way a positive ‘visual spectacle’ today (on or off the pitch).

Sadly the advantage (of not having away fans pressure the referee - when was the last away penalty you saw given at Ewood?) is being negated by Mowbray.

But I agree they can’t make it a spectacle unless the home areas are heaving.

[Tom]

Greg is one of the good guys, very difficult job though at the moment

I agree there’s been times that we haven’t seized on momentum, any walk ons this season haven’t seen a feast of football more often than not.

Whatever reasons people have said they are staying away for you can guarantee that promotion is the route that would bring back the most fans. 

[Mattyblue]

3,700 at Stanley yesterday (2,500 of them home fans) for a Sky game.

Pretty much doubled their numbers in a couple of years, they were happy with breaking four figures not long ago. And that will only continue to increase with the work Holt is putting in with attracting young support. When the camera panned to the crowd I was struck with how many kids were there with parents.

I wonder how many of said parents were once Rovers fans? That’s them and their children gone. 

Our catchment area gets ever smaller, still at least the club has done ‘everything it can’.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Mattyblue

[Stuart]

On 21/10/2019 at 12:25, Mattyblue said:

3,700 at Stanley yesterday (2,500 of them home fans) for a Sky game.

Pretty much doubled their numbers in a couple of years, they were happy with breaking four figures not long ago. And that will only continue to increase with the work Holt is putting in with attracting young support. When the camera panned to the crowd I was struck with how many kids were there with parents.

I wonder how many of said parents were once Rovers fans? That’s them and their children gone. 

Our catchment area gets ever smaller, still at least the club has done ‘everything it can’.

Don’t tell us, tell Waggott!

He still thinks we want £7.50 pie-and-a-pint “deals”.

[Bad Boy]

On 19/10/2019 at 10:58, Tom said:

Greg is one of the good guys, very difficult job though at the moment

I agree there’s been times that we haven’t seized on momentum, any walk ons this season haven’t seen a feast of football more often than not.

Whatever reasons people have said they are staying away for you can guarantee that promotion is the route that would bring back the most fans. 

Yes Greg is trying hard in challenging circumstances and it is difficult to milk the local community and business fraternity much more.

There appeared to be about 8,500 home fans on v Huddersfield, there were vast swathes of empty seats around me in the JW that are normally occupied.

If we do not improve on the field (where it matters most) the gates will continue to drop.  We have already lost a net 700 ST holders this season and I can see the decline continuing sadly.

[Mattyblue]

Thought we’d gained a 100?

8,600 from 8,500?

https://www.rovers.co.uk/contentassets/d47edf0f19cd47dea3a73e898f8da69c/ff-minutes-9.9.19.docx