Attendances

[arbitro]

55 minutes ago, Paul said:

I know what you're saying Ozz but it's very easy to find such examples and the opposite can also be shown. Just a few weeks ago Rovers had the sixth highest attendance outside the PL in England, possibly the UK I can't quite remember.

I mentioned that on the MB. No one was interested. People are always moaning about the club. The ones who particularly make me smile are those who find a new reason every week, never attend and fail to recognise or admit the truth is they've either lost interest or no longer care. In which case why bother getting upset about something that will never impact their lives?

Many, many aspects of our lives encounter surcharges on tickets and other services. Concerts, cinema, theatre, rail tickets, car parking, parcel delivery, airline seats, baggage. Rovers are far, far from alone in doing this. Ultimately if someone can afford £27/ticket (whatever it is as I've lost track) they can afford £30. Not going because of this charge is an excuse. 

It's about supply and demand though surely. Most of the examples quoted can charge extra because they mostly sell out. I think the majority of complainants are saying that Rovers should be doing every thing they possible can to get people in the ground. I guess the only way to prove it one way or another is by doing away with it for a trial period and see what effect that has on sales and attendances.

[Paul]

5 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

 

Can you provide a reason the club add a surcharge?  'Airline seats' have them is not a reason. Cinemas don't put the price up two hours before the films start as far as I'm aware and theatres often do the opposite. I'm not even going to consider why you think the rip-off merchants who operate car parks are in any way relevant to a football club, but you may well have just been hoisted by your own petard. 

Also, using the Leeds game, with 35% of the crowd being from Leeds, as a indicator of how well our crowds are holding up and that people are just 'moaners' is frankly bizarre.

The debate is how to get more people in the ground. If you think a surcharge is conducive to that then fair enough. I think it's pointless and counter-productive.  PNE don't do it, and they are of similar status and demographic to us with similar crowds, so why do we? It's an interesting debate, however I'm yet to hear a justification for the surcharge either from the club or from those on here that defend it. 

Maybe @chaddyrovers can explain Waggott's reasoning for the surcharge. Chaddy keeps stating Waggott has provided one and that we should all move on. I'm yet to see a link to it. 

Rather than just call people 'moaners' perhaps you could engage with some of the above points?

Certainly I can provide reasons. In terms of day to day running in the club's best interest administratively, financially and logistically to have a strong indication, through advance sales, of the numbers likely to attend. This can impact ticket office staffing, stewarding, concourse kiosks, food orders, minimise pre match queues at the ticket office etc. I'm sure with a bit if thought one could come up with more. Controlling these costs, avoiding food wastage etc. all contribute to a better bottom line. This is how the club will view the surcharge. Waggot for obvious reasons isn't going to publicly state this.

I gave you examples of where surcharges are applied. Surcharges are additional payments not necessarily price increases. Surcharge is the word being used here and therefore picking a few examples which enter my head is relevant. Buy a cinema ticket on line - surcharge; concert ticket online - surcharge; theatre ticket online - surcharge; online shopping - meet a minimum order or pay delivery - surcharge. As for car parks - there are Manchester car parks where at the weekend its £5/24 hours in advance - I paid it 3 minutes walk from Piccadilly for the Charlton match - try paying at the exit machine - price increases out of all proportion.

I didn't not use the Leeds game as an example of anything - see my response to Matty.

I did not say the "surcharge" is conducive getting people in to the ground. Please read what I post, not what you would like to think I have said. The answer to getting more people in to the ground is STs. It always has been and always will be. Yes there will be a few exceptions when unexpected numbers turn out, I'm not thinking of Oxford as that was not typical of anything.

I think this engages with your points. I have provided my own arguments and reasons earlier. If I've missed something I'll try to cover it.

[Paul]

41 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

And 'people' on here know we are in a better position than in years. There's a Charlie Mulgrew thread with lots of 'positive' comments after he signed his new contract. Have you or Biz posted in there or do you not like good news? See, it's easy to do this pointing the finger thing.

So, back to the debate. It's about attendances and what the club are doing, or rather not doing,  to attract fans back to the club. Just for reference, I'm a ST holder who hates sitting in a more than half empty stadium every other week whilst at the same time the club are putting up prices and imposing silly surcharges. That isn't 'moaning'. If you think it is then you're the problem, not the 'people' trying to discuss it. 

 

Sorry I don't like good news? I hope you're not serious with this remark? For years anyone with a positive comment to make on here about any aspect of the club has been shot down in flames. A few have tried to remain positive in the face of some of the darkest times the club has seen. I'm putting my view in here because I disagree with the views being expressed, that is, as you have requested, discussion.

Do I need to join in commenting on Charlie Mulgrew? No. I know it's positive, I'm delighted.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Paul

[arbitro]

Just now, Paul said:

Certainly I can provide reasons. In terms of day to day running in the club's best interest administratively, financially and logistically to have a strong indication, through advance sales, of the numbers likely to attend. This can impact ticket office staffing, stewarding, concourse kiosks, food orders, minimise pre match queues at the ticket office etc. I'm sure with a bit if thought one could come up with more. Controlling these costs, avoiding food wastage etc. all contribute to a better bottom line. This is how the club will view the surcharge. Waggot for obvious reasons isn't going to publicly state this.

I gave you examples of where surcharges are applied. Surcharges are additional payments not necessarily price increases. Surcharge is the word being used here and therefore picking a few examples which enter my head is relevant. Buy a cinema ticket on line - surcharge; concert ticket online - surcharge; theatre ticket online - surcharge; online shopping - meet a minimum order or pay delivery - surcharge. As for car parks - there are Manchester car parks where at the weekend its £5/24 hours in advance - I paid it 3 minutes walk from Piccadilly for the Charlton match - try paying at the exit machine - price increases out of all proportion.

I didn't not use the Leeds game as an example of anything - see my response to Matty.

I did not say the "surcharge" is conducive getting people in to the ground. Please read what I post, not what you would like to think I have said. The answer to getting more people in to the ground is STs. It always has been and always will be. Yes there will be a few exceptions when unexpected numbers turn out, I'm not thinking of Oxford as that was not typical of anything.

I think this engages with your points. I have provided my own arguments and reasons earlier. If I've missed something I'll try to cover it.

I can't buy that as a reason. What if, hypothetically 2000 people turned up after the cut off time and bought tickets? They surely wouldn't be turned away for the reasons you have stated.

[tomphil]

2 minutes ago, arbitro said:

It's about supply and demand though surely. Most of the examples quoted can charge extra because they mostly sell out. I think the majority of complainants are saying that Rovers should be doing every thing they possible can to get people in the ground. I guess the only way to prove it one way or another is by doing away with it for a trial period and see what effect that has on sales and attendances.

I don't think it would make a noticeable difference numbers wise if it was removed as like discussed it won't be keep thousands away and how would the club or anyone else know if people are making a decision based on that.

What it does do is give a bit of bad press and it being constantly mentioned on here is an example of that, remove it and you remove another little negative vibe and it becomes good press. That's better in the bigger picture in terms of publicity and the 'listening club' line.

[rigger]

Opening up a bigger area at the back of the Blackburn end for half time might make the half time services more efficient. This might seem a little point, but everything adds to the enjoyment of the experience.

[Paul]

3 minutes ago, arbitro said:

It's about supply and demand though surely. Most of the examples quoted can charge extra because they mostly sell out. I think the majority of complainants are saying that Rovers should be doing every thing they possible can to get people in the ground. I guess the only way to prove it one way or another is by doing away with it for a trial period and see what effect that has on sales and attendances.

I don't think it's about supply and demand. Cinemas are often empty to the point when I see three people watching, seriously, I wonder why they bother opening the door. Theatres yes often sold out though as an example The Lowry was recently only 80% full when I went and I also received a 50% discount offer to shift tickets for another event there. Trains are full outside of rush hour because tickets are discounted for early purchase. I was though using examples of surcharges we will all encounter at times to demonstrate Rovers are not exclusive in this area.

I very, very much doubt removing the surcharge as a trial would add any significant number to the gate. It's quite likely it would be impossible to arrive at any valid analysis as there are too many other variables.

[Paul]

13 minutes ago, arbitro said:

I can't buy that as a reason. What if, hypothetically 2000 people turned up after the cut off time and bought tickets? They surely wouldn't be turned away for the reasons you have stated.

I was asked for reasons why the club imposes a surcharge. Of course fans won't be turned away and would pay more. What could happen though is there would be queues at the TO, people might miss kick off,  increased demand at kiosks might mean fans can't get served or get food/drink etc. Should this situation occur I think we might then see complaints about how the club is unprepared for large numbers, I missed ten minutes etc. I couldn't get a coffee. I think it's a reasonable assumption to assume those are potential complaints.

If the club has a very strong indication of the numbers attending these potential issues can be controlled through staffing etc. By the same token the club can avoid additional costs by not being over-staffed when those 2000 chose not to turn up.

There may also be a safety aspect, I simply do not know. I can though appreciate the club may be legally required to provide "x" number of stewards etc. per 100 fans or other given number.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Paul

[Paul]

3 minutes ago, rigger said:

Opening up a bigger area at the back of the Blackburn end for half time might make the half time services more efficient. This might seem a little point, but everything adds to the enjoyment of the experience.

You're absolutely right.  There is the problem, an extra 2000 turn up unexpectedly and they can't get a drink, hence the desire to sell advance tickets and understand the likely attendance. The club though are probably working on the basis to staff more areas wouldn't be justified by cost.

[MCMC1875]

4 hours ago, Paul said:

Certainly I can provide reasons. In terms of day to day running in the club's best interest administratively, financially and logistically to have a strong indication, through advance sales, of the numbers likely to attend. This can impact ticket office staffing, stewarding, concourse kiosks, food orders, minimise pre match queues at the ticket office etc. I'm sure with a bit if thought one could come up with more. Controlling these costs, avoiding food wastage etc. all contribute to a better bottom line. This is how the club will view the surcharge. Waggot for obvious reasons isn't going to publicly state this.

I gave you examples of where surcharges are applied. Surcharges are additional payments not necessarily price increases. Surcharge is the word being used here and therefore picking a few examples which enter my head is relevant. Buy a cinema ticket on line - surcharge; concert ticket online - surcharge; theatre ticket online - surcharge; online shopping - meet a minimum order or pay delivery - surcharge. As for car parks - there are Manchester car parks where at the weekend its £5/24 hours in advance - I paid it 3 minutes walk from Piccadilly for the Charlton match - try paying at the exit machine - price increases out of all proportion.

I didn't not use the Leeds game as an example of anything - see my response to Matty.

I did not say the "surcharge" is conducive getting people in to the ground. Please read what I post, not what you would like to think I have said. The answer to getting more people in to the ground is STs. It always has been and always will be. Yes there will be a few exceptions when unexpected numbers turn out, I'm not thinking of Oxford as that was not typical of anything.

I think this engages with your points. I have provided my own arguments and reasons earlier. If I've missed something I'll try to cover it.

Last minute ticket sales will not increase staff costs or food wastage. They will have the opposite effect. More queuing for fans perhaps and food more likely to sell out.

Where, pray tell, are new ST's going to come from? If new ST's come from walk ons, then walk ons need to be encouraged not discouraged.

Edited November 16, 2018 by MCMC1875

[roversfan99]

2 hours ago, Paul said:

I know what you're saying Ozz but it's very easy to find such examples and the opposite can also be shown. Just a few weeks ago Rovers had the sixth highest attendance outside the PL in England, possibly the UK I can't quite remember.

I mentioned that on the MB. No one was interested. People are always moaning about the club. The ones who particularly make me smile are those who find a new reason every week, never attend and fail to recognise or admit the truth is they've either lost interest or no longer care. In which case why bother getting upset about something that will never impact their lives?

Many, many aspects of our lives encounter surcharges on tickets and other services. Concerts, cinema, theatre, rail tickets, car parking, parcel delivery, airline seats, baggage. Rovers are far, far from alone in doing this. Ultimately if someone can afford £27/ticket (whatever it is as I've lost track) they can afford £30. Not going because of this charge is an excuse. 

The whole point that people are making is that we need to remove as many potential "excuses," not that people need to justify their attendance. We are season ticket holders but the people this will most affect are people who arent regulars, who do have other things to occupy their time if Rovers isnt an attractive enough proposition to them, therefore the club can either turn their nose up at them or embrace that fact and try its best to bring them back in. 

I appreciate your point about surcharges being in place to allow the club to predict attendances for various reasons but that then implies that if there was a sudden demand on a match day and loads of people decided on the day to try and get a ticket, then that would be a bad thing logistically. In which case the number of fans in the ground clearly isnt THAT important to the club.

The club should do everything it can to get as many people in the ground WHENEVER they decide to attend, even if it is last minute. They then should think of ways to deal with any logistical issues that come with that, ie the contactless season tickets they are bringing in to help with queues for the bars for example. A very good idea.

[K-Hod]

A surcharge isn’t a reason people don’t attend, but it’s another barrier. Walk ons aren’t THAT cheap, so really it just doesn’t help. 

[arbitro]

1 hour ago, Paul said:

I don't think it's about supply and demand. Cinemas are often empty to the point when I see three people watching, seriously, I wonder why they bother opening the door. Theatres yes often sold out though as an example The Lowry was recently only 80% full when I went and I also received a 50% discount offer to shift tickets for another event there. Trains are full outside of rush hour because tickets are discounted for early purchase. I was though using examples of surcharges we will all encounter at times to demonstrate Rovers are not exclusive in this area.

I very, very much doubt removing the surcharge as a trial would add any significant number to the gate. It's quite likely it would be impossible to arrive at any valid analysis as there are too many other variables.

Do you agree it's worth trying and monitoring though? You might well be correct but until there is firm evidence one way or another we will never know.

[arbitro]

1 hour ago, Paul said:

I was asked for reasons why the club imposes a surcharge. Of course fans won't be turned away and would pay more. What could happen though is there would be queues at the TO, people might miss kick off,  increased demand at kiosks might mean fans can't get served or get food/drink etc. Should this situation occur I think we might then see complaints about how the club is unprepared for large numbers, I missed ten minutes etc. I couldn't get a coffee. I think it's a reasonable assumption to assume those are potential complaints.

If the club has a very strong indication of the numbers attending these potential issues can be controlled through staffing etc. By the same token the club can avoid additional costs by not being over-staffed when those 2000 chose not to turn up.

There may also be a safety aspect, I simply do not know. I can though appreciate the club may be legally required to provide "x" number of stewards etc. per 100 fans or other given number.

Would you advocate a cash turnstile in each area of the ground?

Whatever anybody's views on the surcharge what I hope we would all agree on is that it is incumbent upon Waggott and his staff to try and entice fans to attend.

By the way Paul what would you do if you were charged with increasing attendances?

[rigger]

1 minute ago, arbitro said:

Would you advocate a cash turnstile in each area of the ground?

Whatever anybody's views on the surcharge what I hope we would all agree on is that it is incumbent upon Waggott and his staff to try and entice fans to attend.

By the way Paul what would you do if you were charged with increasing attendances?

Lay on free transport from outlying areas.

[MCMC1875]

1 hour ago, Paul said:

I was asked for reasons why the club imposes a surcharge. Of course fans won't be turned away and would pay more. What could happen though is there would be queues at the TO, people might miss kick off,  increased demand at kiosks might mean fans can't get served or get food/drink etc. Should this situation occur I think we might then see complaints about how the club is unprepared for large numbers, I missed ten minutes etc. I couldn't get a coffee. I think it's a reasonable assumption to assume those are potential complaints.

If the club has a very strong indication of the numbers attending these potential issues can be controlled through staffing etc. By the same token the club can avoid additional costs by not being over-staffed when those 2000 chose not to turn up.

There may also be a safety aspect, I simply do not know. I can though appreciate the club may be legally required to provide "x" number of stewards etc. per 100 fans or other given number.

Ridiculous. Never in 40 years have I heard of complaints due to last minute ticket queues or refreshment queues at Ewood. Usual comments along the lines of "Great turnout!".

Edited November 16, 2018 by MCMC1875

[arbitro]

16 minutes ago, rigger said:

Lay on free transport from outlying areas.

It's a good point. I know of several regular posters on here who get a bus from one of several designated pubs in Darwen. No hassle parking up and walking to the ground and keeps Ewood a bit more traffic free. These are organised by fans though. I agree with you that the club should coordinate transport from the various postcodes where we could possibly gain more support from.

[Paul]

1 hour ago, arbitro said:

Do you agree it's worth trying and monitoring though? You might well be correct but until there is firm evidence one way or another we will never know.

Absolutely. Anything is worth trying though I'm not at all sure there will be any significant improvement until we return to the PL. Even that could be doubtful. As I've already said 75% of the people I know locally have stopped and none show any desire to return.

[47er]

59 minutes ago, rigger said:

Lay on free transport from outlying areas.

Or even not free transport given the parking issues.

[Paul]

51 minutes ago, MCMC1875 said:

Ridiculous. Never in 40 years have I heard of complaints due to last minute ticket queues or refreshment queues at Ewood. Usual comments along the lines of "Great turnout!".

Maybe not in 40 years but given the more recent preference for criticising the club it's a possibility.

[Paul]

1 hour ago, arbitro said:

Would you advocate a cash turnstile in each area of the ground?

Whatever anybody's views on the surcharge what I hope we would all agree on is that it is incumbent upon Waggott and his staff to try and entice fans to attend.

By the way Paul what would you do if you were charged with increasing attendances?

Other than a few years ago at Wigan it's so long since I paid cash I don't have a feeling about it. I do understand it could be important for some and if demand is sufficient let's do it. There is an issue though. I expect to walk in to my seat. I don't want to have to ask cash payers to move. It can be argued those fans would be directed to a specific area but we all know football fans don't necessarily take note of such requests. Perhaps if people are given a ticket that would overcome the potential problem? I don't know.

How would I increase attendance? I would put every possible effort in to STs. This is where the value lays for both club and supporters. It's what approximately £15, there really isn't better value for a ticket at Ewood.

I feel the club is poor at attracting more ST holders and especially lapsed fans. I'm not aware of any attempt to determine why people stop and what would convince them to return. I'd implement a survey of some sort. A very direct one - my previous energy supplier actually rang me to discuss why I switched away and asked me what would  convince me to return. An energy company!!!!! Understand the problem first and then try to address it.

A suggestion was made some time ago of reducing prices each time someone buys a match ticket. The more you attend the less it costs. I thought that was a great idea.

[Paul]

1 hour ago, rigger said:

Lay on free transport from outlying areas.

Yes. One of the points I've argued is the club need to address ST holder benefits. If the club wanted to reduce match day prices, as many argue they should, offering free or discounted transport to ST holders would be excellent. I'd expect those coaches to have the same priority as the away support.

I'm sick to death of being held in a car park till the away support leaves. I think I'd probably pay for the service.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Paul

[arbitro]

Just now, Paul said:

Other than a few years ago at Wigan it's so long since I paid cash I don't have a feeling about it. I do understand it could be important for some and if demand is sufficient let's do it. There is an issue though. I expect to walk in to my seat. I don't want to have to ask cash payers to move. It can be argued those fans would be directed to a specific area but we all know football fans don't necessarily take note of such requests. Perhaps if people are given a ticket that would overcome the potential problem? I don't know.

How would I increase attendance? I would put every possible effort in to STs. This is where the value lays for both club and supporters. It's what approximately £15, there really isn't better value for a ticket at Ewood.

I feel the club is poor at attracting more ST holders and especially lapsed fans. I'm not aware of any attempt to determine why people stop and what would convince them to return. I'd implement a survey of some sort. A very direct one - my previous energy supplier actually rang me to discuss why I switched away and asked me what would  convince me to return. An energy company!!!!! Understand the problem first and then try to address it.

A suggestion was made some time ago of reducing prices each time someone buys a match ticket. The more you attend the less it costs. I thought that was a great idea.

On your first point I went to watch Accrington recently, turned up around 2.15 and paid cash at a ticket booth and was handed tickets for allocated seats. There was a steady stream of fans buying tickets, presumably after making a late decision to go.

I think there have been some really salient suggestions on this thread and the powers that be at Ewood have nothing to lose by taking note and trialling some of them.

 

[Paul]

13 minutes ago, arbitro said:

On your first point I went to watch Accrington recently, turned up around 2.15 and paid cash at a ticket booth and was handed tickets for allocated seats. There was a steady stream of fans buying tickets, presumably after making a late decision to go.

I think there have been some really salient suggestions on this thread and the powers that be at Ewood have nothing to lose by taking note and trialling some of them.

 

On the ticket point I think that essential for cash turnstiles. It would be very annoying to regularly arrive and find someone in your seat. All other "entertainment" venues do it so I'm sure Rovers could.

You are right there are many good points here. It is my belief that the issue runs much deeper than a £3 surcharge and it is an excuse for many. If I was a casual fan I don't think I'd pay match day prices at ANY ground. I stopped going away in the PL when the trip to Anfield cost in excess of £100. I simply cannot justify the expenditure - even when I worked though I could afford it. Perceived value and all that.

If I had to shell out £60 every Saturday for me and the lad I doubt we would go. In fact as I live on a pension I couldn't afford it. This is why the ST is such huge value and has to be the key selling point.

If I didn't have an ST offer me a special occasion or great price and I'd go BUT those would only be one offs which are useless to the club. Add to that if I didn't know about it I couldn't go and I suspect the majority who know about special deals are already in the ground.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Paul

[MCMC1875]

47 minutes ago, arbitro said:

On your first point I went to watch Accrington recently, turned up around 2.15 and paid cash at a ticket booth and was handed tickets for allocated seats. There was a steady stream of fans buying tickets, presumably after making a late decision to go.

I think there have been some really salient suggestions on this thread and the powers that be at Ewood have nothing to lose by taking note and trialling some of them.

 

That's no different to queuing at the ticket office at Ewood apart from the surcharge.