Glenn Hoddle

[JBiz]

1 minute ago, Batman. said:

But I don't believe it's offensive. I have explained in depth why.

Freedom of speech and freedom of expression by it's very nature allows us to speak with the risk of offending others.

It’s not difficult to understand why some would be offended by that. Start off with anyone disabled, then move on to anyone related/knowing someone affected by disability.

Its a damn sight worse than accepting a lucrative under the table cash offer to speak to a client or dinner for some dodgy agent, whilst drinking a pint of wine! 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Biz

[Batman.]

Just now, blueboy3333 said:

So what? You said his words had been misinterpreted. They haven't. Saying 'it is my belief' doesn't excuse the nonsense that then spewed from his mouth. 

Do you know what you're even defending? Is it freedom of speech? Hoddle's right to offend disabled people?  

 

A minute a go you said that he said it was a fact. I pointed out that he said it was his belief. In was correct. You twisted it to make your own argument seem stronger.

I know exactly what I'm defending, however, you have no idea what you're attacking. Do you know the first thing about the concept of Reincarnation? Of course not. You're just arguing based on your initial reaction to something. That's your prerogative, but in my opinion it's not the type of stance nor attitude that will particularly help in contributing anything meaningful to the world.

[davulsukur]

[Batman.]

20 minutes ago, Biz said:

It’s not difficult to understand why some would be offended by that. Start off with anyone disabled, then move on to anyone related/knowing someone affected by disability.

Its a damn sight worse than accepting a lucrative under the table cash offer to speak to a client or dinner for some dodgy agent, whilst drinking a pint of wine! 

What's offensive? Do you believe in past lives? If not you can just dismiss it.

Do you believe in multiple lives but don't believe that previous karma is carried from one life to another? Fine, argue that.

Do you believe in anything? If not, absolutely fine.

I'm not sure why anyone would be offended by what he said? I'm not dismissing your right to be offended, I just disagree.

If somebody said to you "the reason you're crap at something is because of something you did in a past life," would it bother you? If somebody said to you "because of that riskay racist joke you made you'll be subjected to racial discrimination in your next life," would that offend you?

You either believe it, or you don't. Or you believe it as a possibility, or you don't. Who cares if Glenn Hoddle thinks you're in a wheel chair because of sins in a past life? He's not said that people in wheelchairs are bad people. It's his belief that your spirit transcends from one physical body to another, experiencing the positive and negative consequences of previous actions and lives along the way. I don't really see the harm if this is what he believes.

Again, the reality is, people are offended because they believe he should think differently. I don't believe that people should think they have the right to determine how others should think. You're entitled to disagree.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Batman.

[blueboy3333]

Just now, Batman. said:

A minute a go you said that he said it was a fact. I pointed out that he said it was his belief. In was correct. You twisted it to make your own argument seem stronger.

I know exactly what I'm defending, however, you have no idea what you're attacking. Do you know the first thing about the concept of Reincarnation? Of course not. You're just arguing based on your initial reaction to something. That's your prerogative, but in my opinion it's not the type of stance nor attitude that will particularly help in contributing anything meaningful to the world.

He thinks it's a fact. His quote is self-evident. Telling me I have no idea what I'm attacking when I've already provided you with the quote seems a bit silly. You didn't even know what he'd said. I had to provide you with the evidence. You just said he's been misquoted and earlier in the thread that 99.9% of the population were too stupid to realise. Well, he wasn't misquoted or misrepresented. So where does that leave you?

So, again, what exactly are you trying to defend? I know what I'm 'attacking'...his crass remarks about something he misunderstood and probably got from his crackpot faith healer friend. Hoddle was a not a Hindu or Buddhist so why do you think he would know about the concept of Reincarnation in a way that makes him an authority? 

[JBiz]

5 minutes ago, Batman. said:

What's offensive? Do you believe in past lives? If not you can just dismiss it.

Do you believe in multiple lives but don't believe that previous karma is carries from one life to another? Fine, argue that.

Do you believe in anything? If not, absolutely fine.

I'm not sure why anyone would be offended by what he said? I'm not dismissing your right to be offended, I just disagree.

If somebody said to you "the reason you're crap at something is because of something you did in a past life," would it bother you? If somebody said to you "because of that riskay racist joke you made you'll be subjected to racial discrimination in your next life," would that offend you?

You either believe it, or you don't. Or you believe it as a possibility, or you don't. Who cares if Glenn Hoddle thinks you're in a wheel chair because of sins in a past life? He's not said that people in wheelchairs are bad people. It's his belief that your spirit transcends from one physical body to another, experiencing the positive and negative consequences of previous actions and lives along the way. I don't really see the harm if this is what he believes.

Again, the reality is, people are offended because they believe he should think differently. I don't believe that people should think they have the right to determine how others should think. You're entitled to disagree.

Sorry Batman but I think people are offended that he shared ie promoted a belief in a way that castigates a whole section of society. I personally find this abhorrent.

Indefensible comments from my point of view, and whilst free speech is often trollied out as an excuse to simply offend all and sundry, freedom of choice means I choose to think Glen Hoddle is an utter bellend for thinking it was even remotely acceptable to share such bizarre, antiquated and frankly ridiculous belief.

Yes, probably no malice intended, probably just a half baked understanding from something but that’s exactly why I said he was ignorant for it.

Still, hope he gets well soon. No family deserves to lose a loved one like that.

[Batman.]

17 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

He thinks it's a fact. His quote is self-evident. Telling me I have no idea what I'm attacking when I've already provided you with the quote seems a bit silly. You didn't even know what he'd said. I had to provide you with the evidence. You just said he's been misquoted and earlier in the thread that 99.9% of the population were too stupid to realise. Well, he wasn't misquoted or misrepresented. So where does that leave you?

So, again, what exactly are you trying to defend? I know what I'm 'attacking'...his crass remarks about something he misunderstood and probably got from his crackpot faith healer friend. Hoddle was a not a Hindu or Buddhist so why do you think he would know about the concept of Reincarnation in a way that makes him an authority? 

I knew exactly what he said from start to finish, and have done for many, many years. Again you have made presumptions and altered the reality in order to suit your own agenda.

When he says "'I do believe spiritually we have to progress because we've been here before. The physical body is just an overcoat for your spirit. At death you take the overcoat off and your spirit will go on to another life in a spirit dimension," this is fundamental Buddhism philosophy. The seven dimensional realms though which we progress and regress, as well as the lack of attachment to the physical body. This philosophy has been adapted to many modern religions and philosophies, and are the basic foundations upon which reincarnation theories are based.

Again, you have added things that I never said, and treated them as direct quotes from myself. You have also said that "he thinks it's a fact." He's explicitly stated that it's his belief. I will say it again; you're just making presumptions that contradict the reality in order to suit your own agenda.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Batman.

[Batman.]

5 minutes ago, Biz said:

Sorry Batman but I think people are offended that he shared ie promoted a belief in a way that castigates a whole section of society. I personally find this abhorrent.

Indefensible comments from my point of view, and whilst free speech is often trollied out as an excuse to simply offend all and sundry, freedom of choice means I choose to think Glen Hoddle is an utter bellend for thinking it was even remotely acceptable to share such bizarre, antiquated and frankly ridiculous belief.

Yes, probably no malice intended, probably just a half baked understanding from something but that’s exactly why I said he was ignorant for it.

Still, hope he gets well soon. No family deserves to lose a loved one like that.

You're entitled to your opinion of course, and nobody can tell you it's right or wrong. 

You haven't responded to any of my points though. You have however stated that his beliefs are "ridiculous." Surely to hold such a strong opinion you would be able to state pretty clearly and concisely why they are ridiculous, much in the same way as you could tell me why you think a player is a bad player.

[blueboy3333]

8 minutes ago, Batman. said:

Again, the reality is, people are offended because they believe he should think differently. I don't believe that people should think they have the right to determine how others should think.

No problem with that. Just don't expect to keep your job as the manager of the national team or not be ridiculed for having weird views about something you don't really understand. 

However, I'm glad that you've finally realised that your argument boils down to a freedom of speech/expression issue and nothing else, especially not Hoddle being some Eastern mystic who was misrepresented? Shame you didn't say that at the beginning.

The problem now (and I know you'll already know this because you're an intelligent fellow) is that one of the key parts of the Human Rights Act regarding 'freedom of expression' is that it should not infringe on the reputation or rights of others. Hoddle saying disabled people 'reap what they sow' because they've been naughty in a past life does exactly that. 

I'm not sure where we go from here? 

 

[Batman.]

Just now, blueboy3333 said:

No problem with that. Just don't expect to keep your job as the manager of the national team or not be ridiculed for having weird views about something you don't really understand. 

However, I'm glad that you've finally realised that your argument boils down to a freedom of speech/expression issue and nothing else, especially not Hoddle being some Eastern mystic who was misrepresented? Shame you didn't say that at the beginning.

The problem now (and I know you'll already know this because you're an intelligent fellow) is that one of the key parts of the Human Rights Act regarding 'freedom of expression' is that it should not infringe on the reputation or rights of others. Hoddle saying disabled people 'reap what they sow' because they've been naughty in a past life does exactly that. 

I'm not sure where we go from here? 

 

You're incapable of making a single post without trying to manipulate what I've said in order to try and make your own point stronger.

I've made many long and detailed posts explaining my point of view, and if you're are indeed capable of engaging them directly without reverting to "so what you're saying is" type comments, then be my guest. I've made it explicitly clear exactly what I think, so if you're incapable of understanding/ or unable to respond directly to comments I've made, then I'd suggest you go and reply to things you can debate with a degree of competence.

Otherwise I'm not willing to waste any more time trying to have a conversation with you. I can't really spell things out any clearer than I have done in the dozen odd posts I've made. There are no grey areas within what I've said. You don't need to second guess any of it. 

[blueboy3333]

Just now, Batman. said:

You're incapable of making a single post without trying to manipulate what I've said in order to try and make your own point stronger.

I've made many long and detailed posts explaining my point of view, and if you're are indeed capable of engaging them directly without reverting to "so what you're saying is" type comments, then be my guest. I've made it explicitly clear exactly what I think, so if you're incapable of understanding/ or unable to respond directly to comments I've made, then I'd suggest you go and reply to things you can debate with a degree of competence.

Otherwise I'm not willing to waste any more time trying to have a conversation with you. I can't really spell things out any clearer than I have done in the dozen odd posts I've made. There are no grey areas within what I've said. You don't need to second guess any of it. 

Haha, I responded directly to your post about freedom of speech. I even quoted it. Look, it's up there^, everyone can see it. I didn't manipulate anything. You defended Hoddle's right to freedom of speech. I just pointed out what he expressed freely wasn't allowed to infringe on A N Others reputation, which it did.

G'night. 

[JBiz]

30 minutes ago, Batman. said:

You're entitled to your opinion of course, and nobody can tell you it's right or wrong. 

You haven't responded to any of my points though. You have however stated that his beliefs are "ridiculous." Surely to hold such a strong opinion you would be able to state pretty clearly and concisely why they are ridiculous, much in the same way as you could tell me why you think a player is a bad player.

From my perspective - religion and spiritual belief is just utter nonsense.

You might not be aware, but much like my political leanings - I can’t talk about my own spiritual/religious beliefs in my job due to possible influence. Even when asked questions I have to be completely impartial.

I understand and accept why that is. My choice/belief could insult or cause issue with those I have a responsibility for or can influence. It’s exactly the same principal as to why Hoddle should’ve never talked about such ridiculous concepts in public. 

[gumboots]

I'm a Methodist local preacher who worked in a 90% Muslim school. I would  discuss my faith with anyone who asked and was prepared to listen to what they had to say, but I would never have overstepped the mark and tried to belittle what they believed or in any way influenced their belief because that would not have been appropriate in my job

[Mattyblue]

Maybe my memory is s bit hazy, but wasn’t Hoddle known as a ‘born again Christian’ at the time?

I’m no theologian, but what part of Christianity believes in reincarnation?

[blueboy3333]

14 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Maybe my memory is s bit hazy, but wasn’t Hoddle known as a ‘born again Christian’ at the time?

I’m no theologian, but what part of Christianity believes in reincarnation?

He was a BAC. To answer your other question here's a decent essay on the subject of US Christians and reincarnation. 

https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2015/10/21/25-percent-us-christians-believe-reincarnation-whats-wrong-picture

Some theologians believe reincarnation contradicts Christian teachings (that man dies once and is then judged) but it is apparently becoming a more popular belief amongst in the West. Reincarnation isn't meant to be vengeful though in the way Hoddle portrayed it. 

Personally, I find it baffling that a man in Hoddles position would have come out with such offensive claptrap. ..and if someone doesn't find it offensive they will hopefully be reincarnated as a slug.

[Batman.]

9 hours ago, blueboy3333 said:

Haha, I responded directly to your post about freedom of speech. I even quoted it. Look, it's up there^, everyone can see it. I didn't manipulate anything. You defended Hoddle's right to freedom of speech. I just pointed out what he expressed freely wasn't allowed to infringe on A N Others reputation, which it did.

G'night. 

How did it infringe on another's reputation? If you call me an idiot, that infringes my reputation, but you're more than welcome to do it, and i shouldn't think you'd lose your job for doing it. When you sing vile songs at a football match, it infringes on "another's" reputation, but I don't see many arrests for this. When you come on here slagging other people off, you "infringe the reputation" of others, so what are the consequences? If it had been perceived that he'd committed a hate crime, he would have been charged and potentially arrested.

You've tried to suggest that my entire argument is based upon freedom of speech. It clearly isn't. You've tried to suggest that Hoddle presented his opinions as fact. He clearly didn't.

The problem is, you're trying to win an argument, but only one person is arguing. I have no intention of changing your opinions or beliefs. I'm just defending the right of "another" to express his, whilst trying to understand the true reason why people find them offensive. At the same time I'm expressing my counter opinions to express why I don't feel his comments are at all offensive. It's called a "discussion."

[Batman.]

48 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

He was a BAC. To answer your other question here's a decent essay on the subject Personally, I find it baffling that a man in Hoddles position would have come out with such offensive claptrap. ..and if someone doesn't find it offensive they will hopefully be reincarnated as a slug.

Interesting. So now you've stated that "anyone who doesn't find his comments offensive will hopefully be reincarnated as a slug."

As you well know, I don't believe his comments are offensive, so you are saying that you hope that I reincarnate as a slug?

Hmmmm. Hipocrisy indeed.

[Leonard Venkhater]

1 hour ago, Batman. said:

Interesting. So now you've stated that "anyone who doesn't find his comments offensive will hopefully be reincarnated as a slug."

As you well know, I don't believe his comments are offensive, so you are saying that you hope that I reincarnate as a slug?

Hmmmm. Hipocrisy indeed.

Haha, are you Kafka in disguise? 

[tomphil]

3 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

Maybe my memory is s bit hazy, but wasn’t Hoddle known as a ‘born again Christian’ at the time?

I’m no theologian, but what part of Christianity believes in reincarnation?

He foisted that Eileen Druary our whatever she was called onto the England squad, her sat in with Gazza must've been interesting.

[Batman.]

11 minutes ago, Leonard Venkhater said:

Haha, are you Kafka in disguise? 

He died in 1924. It's more likely that I'm Kafka reincarnated. Keep up.

[Oldgregg86]

21 hours ago, Batman. said:

He died in 1924. It's more likely that I'm Kafka reincarnated. Keep up.

Well played ??

[Pedro]

23 hours ago, Batman. said:

Interesting. So now you've stated that "anyone who doesn't find his comments offensive will hopefully be reincarnated as a slug."

As you well know, I don't believe his comments are offensive, so you are saying that you hope that I reincarnate as a slug?

Hmmmm. Hipocrisy indeed.

Don't knock it. Think of the money you'll save on shoes. 

[gumboots]

On 30/10/2018 at 08:30, blueboy3333 said:

He was a BAC. To answer your other question here's a decent essay on the subject of US Christians and reincarnation. 

https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2015/10/21/25-percent-us-christians-believe-reincarnation-whats-wrong-picture

Some theologians believe reincarnation contradicts Christian teachings (that man dies once and is then judged) but it is apparently becoming a more popular belief amongst in the West. Reincarnation isn't meant to be vengeful though in the way Hoddle portrayed it. 

Personally, I find it baffling that a man in Hoddles position would have come out with such offensive claptrap. ..and if someone doesn't find it offensive they will hopefully be reincarnated as a slug.

Reincarnation is not biblical. In fact Jesus tells the story of the rich man and Lazarus where the rich man who's a bad'un dies, gets what he deserves and asks if the beggar Lazarus who's also died and gone to heaven can go back to warn his family and the reply is that there's no chance. Story to illustrate a completely different point but in my opinion suggests that reincarnation doesn't happen in Christian belief

[47er]

Bloody hell! I can't believe what I'm reading! What's happening? 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Jesus I think if I was disabled I would be very pissed off by Hoddles assertion that it was because I did something wrong in a past life. He is entitled to his beliefs,but I can totally see how parents of a disabled child for example would think he was a prick for saying that. I am most definitely not very PC or overly sensitive. 

Edited October 31, 2018 by Bigdoggsteel