JANUARY TRANSFER WINDOW

[Mercer]

36 minutes ago, Tom said:

*ahem*

We have as much as any player goes for x amount, pretty much all deals now are ‘rising to’ so it seems a silly defence of the Big Ben fee.

I imagine any striker we sign would be a fee in instalments when targets are reached even the Jones to United sale  structured that way 

I posted this yesterday on this thread:

'Having spent quite some time recently with a colleague who is a Forest fan and who has good connections with the club, my understanding is that Forest are absolutely delighted with the deal.  If my understanding is correct then I think you would be surprised at just how costly this deal is for Rovers'.

If my colleague is correct then I am very surprised at what Forest are guaranteed. 

 

[Mercer]

41 minutes ago, 47er said:

We are committed to spending around £7M, its £7M that won't be available for anything or anyone else and that's the point.

Nail on head!

[SBlue]

I’ve got Ben Brereton’s bellend for winning goalscorer in the playoff final so I reckon he’s a bargain.

 

[Tom]

Just now, S8 & Blue said:

I’ve got Ben Brereton’s bellend for winning goalscorer in the playoff final so I reckon he’s a bargain.

 

No wonder he’s playing so bad, give it him back 

[Exiled in Toronto]

3 minutes ago, Mercer said:

I posted this yesterday on this thread:

'Having spent quite some time recently with a colleague who is a Forest fan and who has good connections with the club, my understanding is that Forest are absolutely delighted with the deal.  If my understanding is correct then I think you would be surprised at just how costly this deal is for Rovers'.

If my colleague is correct then I am very surprised at what Forest are guaranteed. 

 

Details of which you aren’t sharing because....

a) Your friend will get in trouble. (Oh wait, he’s not named and is only a fan anyway)

b) The real number might come out later and prove you wrong

c) You enjoy winding up the credulous on here e.g selling Rhodes 7 times before he actually went; Venky’s having no money, selling the club every summer - pretty insightful for an accountant btw...;)

d) You can’t remember it due to all those  fine reds

[roversfan99]

10 minutes ago, Mercer said:

I posted this yesterday on this thread:

'Having spent quite some time recently with a colleague who is a Forest fan and who has good connections with the club, my understanding is that Forest are absolutely delighted with the deal.  If my understanding is correct then I think you would be surprised at just how costly this deal is for Rovers'.

If my colleague is correct then I am very surprised at what Forest are guaranteed. 

 

I am critical of the Brereton deal as are you but cryptic nonsense doesnt support any argument.

[Ossydave]

Another thread just descending into petty sniping at Brereton by pillocks with no idea on the finer details of the deal. Hell fire turn it in ffs or take it to the Brereton thread itself. 

[Guest]

So we've had 'guess the wages' now we're playing 'guess the guaranteed price'?

Feck me what's next? Guess how many dinner ladies we have/need? 

Someone post an 11 o'clocker and save us all.

[Miller11]

16 minutes ago, Mercer said:

I posted this yesterday on this thread:

'Having spent quite some time recently with a colleague who is a Forest fan and who has good connections with the club, my understanding is that Forest are absolutely delighted with the deal.  If my understanding is correct then I think you would be surprised at just how costly this deal is for Rovers'.

If my colleague is correct then I am very surprised at what Forest are guaranteed. 

 

I’ve heard from someone, who was apparently told by Brereton himself a few months back, that he was due a signing on fee of 600 grand in January.

Don’t know if it’s still the case, but I’d always been under the impression 10% of transfer fee was the going rate. Certainly a few years ago. So it wouldn’t surprise me if we’d coughed up (or committed to) 6 million at this point.

[Paul Mellelieu]

please stop with the BB stuff

[bringdunnback]

Just now, Ossydave said:

Another thread just descending into petty sniping at Brereton by pillocks with no idea on the finer details of the deal. Hell fire turn it in ffs or take it to the Brereton thread itself. 

Agreed.

22 minutes ago, Mercer said:

I posted this yesterday on this thread:

'Having spent quite some time recently with a colleague who is a Forest fan and who has good connections with the club, my understanding is that Forest are absolutely delighted with the deal.  If my understanding is correct then I think you would be surprised at just how costly this deal is for Rovers'.

If my colleague is correct then I am very surprised at what Forest are guaranteed. 

 

Not helped by people claiming inside track on the finer details of the transfer. Frankly it's boring, unappreciated and reeks of attention seeking.

[47er]

3 minutes ago, Ossydave said:

Another thread just descending into petty sniping at Brereton by pillocks with no idea on the finer details of the deal. Hell fire turn it in ffs or take it to the Brereton thread itself. 

"petty" sniping? In any case no-one blames Brereton, any criticism is aimed at the pillocks who signed him.

[Mercer]

16 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I am critical of the Brereton deal as are you but cryptic nonsense doesnt support any argument.

There has been much comment on this MB about the cost of the Brereton deal with wide ranging perspectives as to the overall value of the deal.  We have also seen press links including the LT which have ranged from £7m plus add ons to £7m including add ons.

All I have done is to provide a view from someone with a Nottingham perspective.  I would think my colleague's views are more likely to be right than not; his understanding is Forest are delighted with the deal and there is a substantial element guaranteed.

My personal view all along has been that this is a very expensive deal for Rovers.  I have not seen or heard anything to suggest otherwise.

Clearly, the BB stuff is irking some so on that note I will leave it there.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Mercer

[JBiz]

5 hours ago, JHRover said:

Reality is if we don't get promoted we will have to sell players. Whether that is to meet FFP requirements, to offset some losses, to recoup some for the owners, because our best players attract interest from higher divisions or just because our best players grow tired of plodding along in the Championship and want to move on. The ONLY way to ensure we are protected against departures is by getting up.

These owners have very recent form for stripping the club bare after 3 seasons of missing out on promotion, following which we sold off just about everyone that could command a half decent transfer fee. So I'm sorry whilst I'd love to buy into this 'all the time in the world' theory where we can steadily and sensibly build over 2,3,4,5 years or whatever it is I'm I little bit doubtful that is going to be so straightforward, especially with these owners in place.

That doesn't mean I'm advocating going for broke this season or that I'm against a multi-season development, just that if it doesn't work out as 'planned' the consequences of failure are likely to be quite significant if the post-Bowyer era is anything to go by.

It may well be that things are more sustainable now than they were then, with a more manageable wage structure etc. but that really doesn't help much if the owners get a taste for sales again and start stripping the squad bare.

In this hypothetical 2,3,4 season built it neglects the fact that by the end of it we'll almost certainly be without Graham, Mulgrew, Lenihan, Dack, Reed and Travis all of whom will either be retiring or elsewhere should we not get promoted within that period.

Some good points and I think we agree that the plan needs to more like 24 months as opposed to the 12 months (from league 1 to the premier league in two seasons) that is being suggested by @Miller11

I don't think I inferred that I mean 50 years either.. I just think its common sense to build the club up properly. 

 The amount of money we lost was the reason why we had to sell players post GB. As I suggested, spending a figure about 1.5x our last published turnover on one player would be be great, but if you aren't promoted it would cause us to lose a lot of money. Id advocate the mindset to carry on after promotion too - look at Bournemouth, signing young players from the championship like King and Brookes and turning them into hot property. Howe even speaks of developing his own players.

I'm not naive enough to guarantee that a couple of our best players won't be plucked from our midst in the summer if we aren't promoted, but I am certain that the wage bill currently allows us to offer new contracts, and not be forced to sell. I imagine it also allows us to reinvest any sales, but I also couldn't guarantee that the Rao's wouldn't pull the carpet out either, but they have far more to gain by us being well supported and eventually promoted. Didn't we lose nearly 50m in one season that they stacked up pay offs/costs into?

I don't know the exact figures of FFP, but I assume it to mean the owners can invest 24 million in the playing staff in fees/wages over 3 years without any sanction. 8m in the team every year spent wisely on assets that improve. I personally can't see that causing another "sell your centre backs for 10m combined and then sign Wes Brown and Gordon Greer to replace them" scenario.

Although, I could definitely see those kind of cockups if for some reason we go all out, spend a load and the pieces don't fall into place. The competition to reach that pot of money in the tier above is as fierce as ever.

4 hours ago, Miller11 said:

People who absolve Venky’s of any accountability for our current predicament.

People who claim they are good owners and we are lucky to have them.

People who go from “nice one mate, I voted for you” to “You’ve done more damage to this club than they have” in the space of 18 months.

People who dismiss any negative reports/discussions/opinions about Venky’s without offering any argument.

 

Venky Apologist - the definition at last, thank god its not just a list of black and white sweeping statements....

I have never met one person who absolve the Rao's of their accountability or claim they are good owners- but I have had plenty of quality discussions about what having them as owners has meant for the club. Amongst the myriad of utter BS they have served up, you'd be a fool to think it is all bad.

One fine example is the constant support of the academy, no coincidence that it is essentially one of the key reasons we are having this discussion about being in reaching distance of the playoffs, we wouldn't be anywhere near without Raya, Lenihan, Travis et al.

Finally I will dismiss any random criticism based on assumption - or give back if I feel that there is unwarranted criticism directed at fans who trust what the current chairman/manager are trying to do based on their actions!

 

 

 

[JBiz]

2 minutes ago, Mercer said:

There has been much comment on this MB about the cost of the Brereton deal with wide ranging perspectives as to the overall value of the deal.  We have also seen press links including the LT which have ranged from £7m plus add ons to £7m including add ons.

All I have done is to provide a view from someone with a Nottingham perspective.  I would think my colleague's views are more likely to be right than not; his understanding is Forest are delighted with the deal and there is a substantial element guaranteed.

My personal view all along has been that this is a very expensive deal for Rovers.  I have not seen or heard anything to suggest otherwise.

Your personal views are only ever scenarios that suggest the worst outcome. I should know  

I imagine like many fans with Ben, the club expected more from what they got so far. That doesn't mean, like you @47er and many other assume - he will never come good, he will never improve and he will never be worth his fee.

Skepticism, and criticism of his impact so far is absolutely fine from my point of view, and I am sure you can accept that my personal opinion is that he has at least 12 months and needs at least a few starts in a row to even be considered as given a chance.

Needlessly bringing everything else in our transfer business, back to his suggested fee, wage and now I see more an assumed signing on fee rumour - it (as at least 5 people have pointed out today) achieves absolutely nothing.

 

[roversfan99]

17 minutes ago, Mercer said:

There has been much comment on this MB about the cost of the Brereton deal with wide ranging perspectives as to the overall value of the deal.  We have also seen press links including the LT which have ranged from £7m plus add ons to £7m including add ons.

All I have done is to provide a view from someone with a Nottingham perspective.  I would think my colleague's views are more likely to be right than not; his understanding is Forest are delighted with the deal and there is a substantial element guaranteed.

My personal view all along has been that this is a very expensive deal for Rovers.  I have not seen or heard anything to suggest otherwise.

Clearly, the BB stuff is irking some so on that note I will leave it there.

We can assume that the Brereton deal was a significant one, the fee of 7m is regularly banded around by primary sources.

What we cannot assume is the payment terms, when the installments are due, how much is guaranteed, his wages or any other additional fees. Im not sure how much it matters either, if its in installments or all at once it will still cost us the same, and with a fee of such signifance even a million either side doesnt really change anything, even if he cost say 5m that would still be very expensive.

You havent provided a view or a perspective at all with your "information." A mystery "colleague" with unknown "connections" has told you "details" about the deal which you are unwilling to share, and I suspect dont know yourself.

This is far from the first time you have given cryptic "information" on something seemingly done to make you seem like you know more than you do.

[bboy]

Out of the three the only one I see happening is Sam Gallagher:

TM has always valued (rightly or wrongly) Team Spirit over Player Quality.

As a result we won't sanction a deal that will break our wage structure, in fact breaking it in such a way will prove more expensive then buying the player itself. The likes of BD, mulgrew etc will all expect similar wage bumps.

For preference i'd rather BA over CA; I'd rather a player wanting to make it to the premiership over one on his way down.

 

However i'm in the camp Sam could be a long run successor for Danny Graham; similar player with more physicality but less intelligence which will come with age. Also helps TM and senior players already knows him personally. That said I don't see the point loaning him i'd want him here full time.

[Mercer]

Just now, Biz said:

Your personal views are only ever scenarios that suggest the worst outcome. I should know  

I imagine like many fans with Ben, the club expected more from what they got so far. That doesn't mean, like you @47er and many other assume - he will never come good, he will never improve and he will never be worth his fee.

Skepticism, and criticism of his impact so far is absolutely fine from my point of view, and I am sure you can accept that my personal opinion is that he has at least 12 months and needs at least a few starts in a row to even be considered as given a chance.

Needlessly bringing everything else in our transfer business, back to his suggested fee, wage and now I see more an assumed signing on fee rumour - it (as at least 5 people have pointed out today) achieves absolutely nothing.

 

Most of us were hoping for big things from Brereton when Rovers committed us to a very significant financial outlay (for Rovers).

If Brereton had started with a bang and his goals had made us serious promotion contenders, we would be congratulating Rovers on an inspired piece of business.

So far, it isn't looking like great business and Brereton has contributed little to our league position.  I think the frustrations of supporters creep in when they can see other areas of the team that need strengthening and perhaps could have been strengthened had we not signed Brereton.  Similarly, a couple of shrewd signings now could give us a shot at the play offs this season - if we hadn't financially committed to the Brereton deal, we would have been much better placed to secure those signings now.

The bottom line is that the Brereton deal carries a significant opportunity cost.

[SBlue]

We’d be 14th without his two assists.

 

 

[JBiz]

Just now, Mercer said:

Most of us were hoping for big things from Brereton when Rovers committed us to a very significant financial outlay (for Rovers).

If Brereton had started with a bang and his goals had made us serious promotion contenders, we would be congratulating Rovers on an inspired piece of business.

So far, it isn't looking like great business and Brereton has contributed little to our league position.  I think the frustrations of supporters creep in when they can see other areas of the team that need strengthening and perhaps could have been strengthened had we not signed Brereton.  Similarly, a couple of shrewd signings now could give us a shot at the play offs this season - if we hadn't financially committed to the Brereton deal, we would have been much better placed to secure those signings now.

The bottom line is that the Brereton deal carries a significant opportunity cost.

Everybody would've loved to see more already, but can I remind you that my point is he hasn't been given the time or the chance to be judged yet? Do you genuinely think that its fair to say his transfer is a "Massive blunder " (Mercer, Jan 19)?

By the way, just to be clear - three assumptions on your point;

1. The money we "spent" on Brereton could've been used for other players the manager wanted, and has caused a huge hole in our playing budget - IE there is plenty of discussion about more money being available for young players as opposed to more developed and higher wage/experienced players and there is also plenty about structure of deals with his protracted wage compared to say, Assombalonga.

2. We had targets for other positions we required, who came available for the right deal/wage at the right time. I remember the manager lambasting Bamford being out of our range because of the fee AND wage, and I have referenced Waggot's "flex" more time than you've had a glass of wine with wee Dougie and C o yley - again, his suggestion that we could spend more fee for a 19 year old with less wages is constantly ignored by the "Bash Ben Brigade"... and that was from the acting chairman! Who better to ask?

3. We knew he wouldn't hit the ground running or would take longer than necessary. Hindsight is 20/20 or whatever the saying is.

 

You talk as if all business is simple, maybe if you spent more time crafting a more balanced view about the recent goings on at the club, more of us would take you seriously.

[Wing Wizard Windy Miller]

2 hours ago, Tom said:

*ahem*

We have as much as any player goes for x amount, pretty much all deals now are ‘rising to’ so it seems a silly defence of the Big Ben fee.

I imagine any striker we sign would be a fee in instalments when targets are reached even the Jones to United sale  structured that way 

I think Brereton is a hopeless case.  That said, if I close my eyes and pretend we paid £7mil for Armstrong and £1.8mil for Brereton, I feel much better about things.

Swings and roundabouts.  We only need one of the 2 to 'come good' to have a £10 mil plus striker on the books.

If Armstrong were to double his goal tally between now and the end of season, then a 21 year old English striker with 13-14 champ goals wouldn't be far off that bracket. 

Mad world.

In other news, Dingle bricky on loan till summer will do nicely for me.  Will give us presence and goals.  Then look at the situation again in summer.  Shows ambition but no big fee commitment (yes high wages but only a proportion of).

 

Edited January 30, 2019 by Wing Wizard Windy Miller

[Paul Mellelieu]

This is a January Transfer thread, not a BB thread.  Can't you muppets a) read b) think c) help yourselves.  One more mention and I'll close the thread.

[JHRover]

Going back to Gallagher I'd be very surprised if he was an option at this late stage. If he was on the bench at Southampton tonight it's safe to assume he isn't close to leaving and Southampton aren't in a rush to get rid. Things would have to develop very quickly tomorrow for that to change and to enable him to get up from the South coast for a medical etc.

[Mercer]

17 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

We can assume that the Brereton deal was a significant one, the fee of 7m is regularly banded around by primary sources.

What we cannot assume is the payment terms, when the installments are due, how much is guaranteed, his wages or any other additional fees. Im not sure how much it matters either, if its in installments or all at once it will still cost us the same, and with a fee of such signifance even a million either side doesnt really change anything, even if he cost say 5m that would still be very expensive.

You havent provided a view or a perspective at all with your "information." A mystery "colleague" with unknown "connections" has told you "details" about the deal which you are unwilling to share, and I suspect dont know yourself.

This is far from the first time you have given cryptic "information" on something seemingly done to make you seem like you know more than you do.

About three weeks ago, I posted the following on this thread:

 

'The likes of Arsenal, Chelsea etc make a fortune from loaning out players ranging from those 'fringe' 1st team players right down to the younger lads in the U23's and academies.  It is extremely lucrative for them.

I have an understanding of some of the deals and fees involved and one club received £millions (>£5m, <£10m) in a fee for one player alone who was loaned out last season.  And this is not an 'exception'.

I would be very surprised if Rovers did not pay a loan fee for Palmer'.

 

I could be far more specific and name clubs and players including the big loan deal but it would not be the done thing on a MB for obvious reasons.

Such postings are made only to try and provide a perspective.  Full stop.

[bluebruce]

I thought everyone had agreed to stop yammering about Brereton? I know it's tempting to discuss, because with that money back in our budget we could be more adventurous in this window, but it's been done to death here and has its own thread.