JANUARY TRANSFER WINDOW

[JBiz]

5 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I think we could have got a pretty good centre half for £7 million.

Yea but then we’re back to the cyclical argument that we haven’t actually spent 7m on Brereton and the reduction in wages for him would’ve never been possible for a solid top level championship centrehalf! 

It’s like the Brereton maypole, round and round. It is a symptom of the clubs improvement that we are discussing such specific qualms, as opposed to lambasting the entire direction of the club.

[Ewood Ace]

17 minutes ago, Biz said:

Yea but then we’re back to the cyclical argument that we haven’t actually spent 7m on Brereton and the reduction in wages for him would’ve never been possible for a solid top level championship centrehalf! 

John Egan went to Sheffield United for £4 Million and I can guarantee you that over the course of their 4 year contracts that Brereton is not earning £3 Million less than him. So it could have been possible.

Also if you are right and Brereton is on a reduction in wages have you ever considered why a player who cost more than twice what our next most expensive signing cost is on a wage that doesn't reflect his transfer fee?

Edited February 3, 2019 by Ewood Ace

[roversfan99]

6 minutes ago, Biz said:

Yea but then we’re back to the cyclical argument that we haven’t actually spent 7m on Brereton and the reduction in wages for him would’ve never been possible for a solid top level championship centrehalf! 

It’s like the Brereton maypole, round and round. It is a symptom of the clubs improvement that we are discussing such specific qualms, as opposed to lambasting the entire direction of the club.

You say that as if people are not aware of that.

Everyone obviously appreciates and is thankful that we have come a long way from the disastrous spells that we have had, notably under Kean and Coyle. 

Going forward, that obviously can not be the benchmark. At times in the past, effort and willingness were a god send when the club was mismanaged, now as an ambitious club moving forward they need to become assumed and only an asset if coupled with ability on top. Gone are the days when a player deserves a spot merely for giving his all.

Under good managers in the past, again effort was assumed and their transfers, tactics and individual results were open to criticism. When Big Sam signed Niko Kalinic, he was as much of a talking point as Brereton is. Under Souness, a manager who won us a cup as well as promotion, his tactics were ridiculed when he started playing Dominic Matteo in midfield. 

[JBiz]

8 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

You say that as if people are not aware of that.

Everyone obviously appreciates and is thankful that we have come a long way from the disastrous spells that we have had, notably under Kean and Coyle. 

Going forward, that obviously can not be the benchmark. At times in the past, effort and willingness were a god send when the club was mismanaged, now as an ambitious club moving forward they need to become assumed and only an asset if coupled with ability on top. Gone are the days when a player deserves a spot merely for giving his all.

Under good managers in the past, again effort was assumed and their transfers, tactics and individual results were open to criticism. When Big Sam signed Niko Kalinic, he was as much of a talking point as Brereton is. Under Souness, a manager who won us a cup as well as promotion, his tactics were ridiculed when he started playing Dominic Matteo in midfield. 

Not convinced about the part in bold, especially the reactions to results on social media and here.

Kalinic a good example of an expensive signing that didn’t really live up to expectations initially but by the time he left, looked like a bit of a waste.

 

[JBiz]

26 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

John Egan went to Sheffield United for £4 Million and I can guarantee you that over the course of their 4 year contracts that Brereton is not earning £3 Million less than him. So it could have been possible.

Also if you are right and Brereton is on a reduction in wages have you ever considered why a player who cost more than twice what our next most expensive signing cost is on a wage that doesn't reflect his transfer fee?

Yea it’s called age. Someone on their first professional contract is always going to cost less monthly than your average proven championship level player.

[Stuart]

4 minutes ago, Biz said:

Yea it’s called age. Someone on their first professional contract is always going to cost less monthly than your average proven championship level player.

If Brereton is on a pittance (relatively speaking) after signing for “up to” £7m then he needs to sack his agent.

[roversfan99]

9 minutes ago, Biz said:

Not convinced about the part in bold, especially the reactions to results on social media and here.

Kalinic a good example of an expensive signing that didn’t really live up to expectations initially but by the time he left, looked like a bit of a waste.

 

A select few have suggested (without stating that he should be sacked) that they have doubts or do not think he can take us further, which I personally think is harsh. But that is exclusive from appreciating a promotion and the job hes done before, indeed even saying hes taken us as far as he can implies a level of progression to get to this point.

There is always going to be a lot of anger when we surrender a 2 nil lead and lost 5-2, it takes a better man than me not to be incredibly pissed off at that.

There are some blatant weaknesses that will need to be rectified that seem to be recurring ones under Mowbray this season before we can push for promotion in the next couple of years. The defensive side of our team is really vulnerable as you implied yourself, and he has used the vast majority 

Kalinic was a player I saw talent in, was technically very good but I cannot say in retrospect that he was anything other than a poor signing, albeit admittedly one who has since had success in Ukraine and then a brilliant season in Serie A, albeit his recent career at Milan and Atletico has not been particularly successful and his refusal to come on as sub in the world cup suggests maybe he has an attitude to go with his talent. Point was that its not just Mowbrays expensive striker signings that are scrutinised.

[Ewood Ace]

12 minutes ago, Biz said:

Yea it’s called age. Someone on their first professional contract is always going to cost less monthly than your average proven championship level player.

But's he's not on his first professional contract and as he has just been bought for £7 Million you'd expect him to at least be earning around the same as an average Championship player, many of whose career transfer fees wouldn't add up to £7 Million.  You talk about Brereton as if he is an apprentice and is earning a few hundred quid a week not someone who is a youth international, played over 50 2nd tier games and was one of the leagues most expensive signings in the summer.

3 minutes ago, Stuart said:

If Brereton is on a pittance (relatively speaking) after signing for “up to” £7m then he needs to sack his agent.

Exactly 

Edited February 3, 2019 by Ewood Ace

[JBiz]

2 minutes ago, Stuart said:

If Brereton is on a pittance (relatively speaking) after signing for “up to” £7m then he needs to sack his agent.

You won’t accept the quotes of the person who actually sanctioned the deal so what is the point replying beyond that?

Just now, Ewood Ace said:

But's he's not on his first professional contract and as he has just been bought for £7 Million you'd expect him to at least be earning around the same as an average Championship player.  You talk about Brereton as if he is an apprentice and is earning a few hundred quid a week not someone who is a youth international, played over 50 2nd tier games and was one of the leagues most expensive signings in the summer.

Exactly 

I didn’t say we gave him his first pro contract FFS. I said we signed him from that. The fact you’d mention his previous experience in this league means you should associate that with a larger fee. For example, Armstrong who had question marks against his form in the championship cost allegedly half! Why? 

If you can’t see the difference between the yearly cost of that sort of deal, compared with someone more established and/or on premier league wages - it’s pointless carrying on. 

[Ewood Ace]

6 minutes ago, Biz said:

I didn’t say we gave him his first pro contract FFS. I said we signed him from that. The fact you’d mention his previous experience in this league means you should associate that with a larger fee. For example, Armstrong who had question marks against his form in the championship cost allegedly half! Why? 

If you can’t see the difference between the yearly cost of that sort of deal, compared with someone more established and/or on premier league wages - it’s pointless carrying on. 

Wrong again we didn't sign Brereton from his first pro contract (https://www.nottinghamforest.co.uk/news/2017/june/brereton-excited-for-future/).

 

As for the last bit I have no idea if that is meant for me or not because it has no relevance to anything I have said. You have again conveniently missed what I said about Brereton's wage. I never even mentioned Premier League wages you have invented that to try and make your own straw man argument rather than respond to the points that I put to you.

Edited February 3, 2019 by Ewood Ace

[pick32]

After the shambles after Graham going of at the weekend we should enter the free transfer market for someone like Lacina Traore

[Stuart]

2 minutes ago, Biz said:

You won’t accept the quotes of the person who actually sanctioned the deal so what is the point replying beyond that?

I didn’t say we gave him his first pro contract FFS. I said we signed him from that. The fact you’d mention his previous experience in this league means you should associate that with a larger fee. For example, Armstrong who had question marks against his form in the championship cost allegedly half! Why? 

If you can’t see the difference between the yearly cost of that sort of deal, compared with someone more established and/or on premier league wages - it’s pointless carrying on. 

There seems to be a lot of people who can’t see this your way. You might want to reflect on that.

[Ewood Ace]

26 minutes ago, Biz said:

The fact you’d mention his previous experience in this league means you should associate that with a larger fee. For example, Armstrong who had question marks against his form in the championship cost allegedly half! Why? 

I'm pleased you mention Armstrong as he and Brereton are an interesting comparison as both are a similar age, both England youth international's and prior to signing Armstrong had played 3 more games at this level than Brereton but Brereton had 1 more goal. So given all that you'd have to assume that they would be on a similar wage and both are on 4 year contracts. Meaning the only real difference is the fee Brereton cost more than double what Armstrong did which suggests to me taking all those factors into account that we other paid for Brereton.

What we paid for Armstrong is about right for a player with potential to grow but not a great 2nd tier record, what we paid for Brereton you what an immediate impact.

Edited February 3, 2019 by Ewood Ace

[tomphil]

More Armo's less Beno's in the future please !

[JBiz]

15 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

Wrong again we didn't sign Brereton from his first pro contract (https://www.nottinghamforest.co.uk/news/2017/june/brereton-excited-for-future/).

 

As for the last bit I have no idea if that is meant for me or not because it has no relevance to anything I have said. You have again conveniently missed what I said about Brereton's wage. I never even mentioned Premier League wages you have invented that to try and make your own straw man argument rather than respond to the points that I put to you.

The points you put across are a similar fantasy of stinny, from my perspective.  Also particularly dismissive of the current crop of senior players, something I’ve made clear I disagree with.

If you think signing BB was akin to adding a senior wage to the squad, from my perspective - you’re wrong.

14 minutes ago, Stuart said:

There seems to be a lot of people who can’t see this your way. You might want to reflect on that.

I’m not one of those people who simply chooses opinion by volume of those who agree! 

 

1 minute ago, Ewood Ace said:

I'm pleased you mention Armstrong as he and Brereton are an interesting comparison as both are a similar age, both England youth international's and prior to signing Armstrong had played 3 more games at this level than Brereton but Brereton had 1 more goal. So given all that you'd have to assume that they would be on a similar wage and both are on 4 year contracts. Meaning the only real difference is the fee Brereton cost more than double what Armstrong did which suggests to me taking all those factors into account that we other paid for Brereton.

What we paid for Armstrong is about right for a player with potential to grow, what we paid for Brereton you what an immediate impact.

Armstrong came from a premier league club so my assumption is his wage would be more like our top earners.

Brereton was young and his experience at championship level was always going to increase his fee compared to his wages!

My thing with BB deal is people unfairly see 7m as the same or similar to signing rhodes, Kalinic, Davies, grabbi et al.

I think that’s stupid personally. I think we only had the potential to spend that money because this particular player was in a wage bracket that meant more was available for the fee. The chairman (waggott) said pretty much the same.

 

[Ewood Ace]

15 minutes ago, Biz said:

Armstrong came from a premier league club so my assumption is his wage would be more like our top earners.

Brereton was young and his experience at championship level was always going to increase his fee compared to his wages!

So you think Armstrong is one of our top earners and yet you talk about Brereton as if he is on pittance (relatively speaking). Maybe Armstrong is on more but when you weigh them both up it's unlikely that there will be a huge difference in their wage as they are of a similar age both England youth international's, similar amount of games and goals in the Championship. The only big difference between them is the fee that we bought them for.

If Brereton really is on a little as you make out (and I highly doubt it) then he should sack his agent straight away. Just out of interest what do you think Brereton is earning a week?

[JBiz]

5 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

So you think Armstrong is one of our top earners and yet you talk about Brereton as if he is on pittance (relatively speaking). Maybe Armstrong is on more but when you weigh them both up it's unlikely that there will be a huge difference in their wage as they are of a similar age both England youth international's, similar amount of games and goals in the Championship. The only big difference between them is the fee that we bought them for.

If Brereton really is on a little as you make out (and I highly doubt it) then he should sack his agent straight away. Just out of interest what do you think Brereton is earning a week?

3/4 PW according to FM19 - and I’d suggest that is far closer to the truth than me and you can simply assume.

Question for you - do you really think 7m was available for signings, on top of the wages that the likes of Celina/Bamford that would’ve required?

 

[tomphil]

Salford City and Orient are paying some of their lads 3 /4 grand per week and I know a lad who's on that at a league 2 club and he's barely a first teamer.

Armstrong was on 20 grandish at the toon and took a pay cut to come but I think they added an extra year to the 3 on offer to swing it, assuming he'll be on 15 grand here.  Brereton will be on something approaching 10k if not on or above that it's blind naivety to assume he'll be on sub five grand per week.  Despite recent austerity measures we still pay decent wedge at Rovers and don't forget they had to lure him here.

3 or 4 grand per week for a possible 7 million signing ?   get out of town,,,,?

Edited February 3, 2019 by tomphil

[Ewood Ace]

25 minutes ago, Biz said:

3/4 PW according to FM19 - and I’d suggest that is far closer to the truth than me and you can simply assume.

Question for you - do you really think 7m was available for signings, on top of the wages that the likes of Celina/Bamford that would’ve required?

 

I never mentioned Celina or Bamford again another strawman argument and I would not have spent £7 Million on one player anyway. If you really think that a £7 Million signing is on 3-4K a week then you are in dreamland, there are player's in the National League earning more than that.

Edited February 3, 2019 by Ewood Ace

[roversfan99]

The whole argument is based around something we dont know or wont ever find out about.

@Biz is right to suggest that compared to players who cost similar fees, Bamford, Waghorn and Grabban will be on considerably higher wages.

I do think however that he has over-exaggerated his assumpton on how low his wage is likely to be. This is a player who cost a considerable sum and whose deal was reported to be orchestrates by an agent. Im sure he is on a wage very much within our wage structure but not at League 1/League 2 levels.

The crux of the matter is he did cost a considerable amount and even if we only had 4 or 5 million combined with more competitive wages, its fair to say that this season, it would have been not difficult (albeit not a 100% sure thing) to find a player or 2 to have a far more signifcant impact on a season we are in touching distance from the play offs. Conversely, Brereton is meant as a long term project and as of yet ive yet to see the raw potential to suggest he will some day justify the fee.

If Dack and Graham are missing next week, I would suggest that the stage may be set for 2 Mowbray signings (Brereton and Rothwell) to contribute to our season and show us what they can do. If they dont or arent even trusted to start then questions shall increase further.

[Stuart]

2 hours ago, tomphil said:

More Armo's less Beno's in the future please !

Nothing wrong with Benno. He’s just not a full back.

[tomphil]

37 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Nothing wrong with Benno. He’s just not a full back.

Maybe Beno will end up there at this rate......

Edited February 3, 2019 by tomphil

[47er]

8 hours ago, Biz said:

No but 47ers fantasy was literally anything we could’ve done would’ve been better.

Virtually!

[47er]

7 hours ago, Eddie said:

Would I guarantee that Reed would be a long term success? No. He wouldn't be the first player to do well on a loan spell here and then fail. Obviously, he is a bit different to Brereton because he's more experienced and dropped down a level to play here. 

The jury is still out on Armstrong. A great loan spell in league one, a poor first half of the season the Championship, and now a good run of a few weeks. 

 

Re Reed, we wouldn't buy anyone based on that argument. He's as good a "banker" as you could see.

[47er]

6 hours ago, Biz said:

I could quite easily say that the amount of points we have amassed, our attacking threat and our impressive home form is ignored because it doesn’t fall into the criticism bracket.

Just to put that into context - we’ve scored a lot of goals and in nearly every game we’ve played - we’ve either contested or at least had consistent enough spells to be in with a shot of winning the game.

Equally we tend to concede goals in game when we are gung ho attempting to win, you say give up.

 

 

Do we have a positive goal difference or a negative one? How does that compare to the clubs around us?