JANUARY TRANSFER WINDOW

[DE.]

In retrospect the deal for Palmer was a bad move all around. It'll be interesting to see how he fares at Bristol City. What's the betting he plays and scores against us when they come to Ewood? He'll know better than anybody how fragile our defence is. 

Our recruitment this window will be interesting as it should show whether Tony is determined to stick with the inside forward formation that isn't really working, or whether he's accepted the need for proper wide men to give the team a bit of balance.

[Bigdoggsteel]

10 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Looking at it you think why bother with these lads when you hardly use them or don't use them correctly but reading between the lines I reckon like Payne he was signed just as Dack back up for long term absence or to fit in there if he was sold from under them.

Pointless signing or good planning for all eventualities that wasn't needed ?

On a loan, a no brainer risk free back up to Dack. 

[Exiled in Toronto]

10 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Looking at it you think why bother with these lads when you hardly use them or don't use them correctly but reading between the lines I reckon like Payne he was signed just as Dack back up for long term absence or to fit in there if he was sold from under them.

Pointless signing or good planning for all eventualities that wasn't needed ?

Depends how you feel about the money you spent on house insurance last year. 

[G Somerset Rover]

Palmer is proven at this level - nobody can argue with that. Shame it didn’t work out but another manager will get more out of him - likely in his preferred CAM position. Hopefully it gives TM room to manoeuvre and bring in a replacement because we’re crying out for quality out wide.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Gavlar Somerset Rover!

[DE.]

7 minutes ago, OnePhilT said:

To say that we've struggled for a consistent line-up and are weak in two or three positions, our formation has served us very well. 15th is still above the expectations of bookies, and we are comfortably clear of danger. It's those two or three positions that could really do with being addressed in this window if we are to establish ourselves in the top-half.

We had a decent start to the season but I think teams have worked out how to nullify us (just stop Dack) and there's no evidence that our "wide forwards" are having any impact. We're extremely reliant on Graham, Dack and Mulgrew and have been lucky they've been available for most of the season. To make Tony's formation work properly you're looking at quite significant upgrades across the park, imo, whereas getting a more traditional and attritional formation to work may only require bringing in a proper winger/wide midfielder or two alongside a decent centre back. 

[Mercer]

1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I wasn't born and to be honest you can't compare football now to back then.  What you can compare are the circumstances.  You have no idea just how tight money then was.  At times in those days, the managers were known to have paid the milk and electricity bills.  We trained on a mudheap at Altham - even under Kenny, training was at Pleasington until Brockhall!  What previous managers have had to contend with and what they produced was remarkable.  In comparison, Mowbray has state of the art facilities and has spent £millions - in my opinion, he is underachieving this season.

Mowbray has brought excitement. Do you not remember last season, or does that not count?  He got us up which was his baseline and winning matches at any level does produce a 'feel good' factor.  However, I thought our football was generally dire and I thought we 'got out of jail' on a number of occasions as the opposition was so poor. 

This season isn't over. There have been ups and downs so far. The Wigan and Preston games apart, we have been unlucky not to have accrued more points.  And there have been matches where we've been lucky to accue points.

Mowbary isn't a "dinosaur" , that is nonsense. He has a squad of young, modern day footballers who are loyal to him and give their all for the jersey. It isn't easy to manage young lads on tens of thousands a week. Real life isn't like football manager.   I think Mowbray is tactically a mess - he is nowhere near as clever as he likes to think he is.  As far 'giving all for their jersey', I think too many players on too many occasions have gone missing when things weren't going well for in in matches - a point picked up by others posters on this MB.  So you also think Brereton is on 'tens of thousands a week' rather than the miserly £10k / week referred to by sum on this MB  !?!? 

 

[TruRover]

Sadly Palmer will probably be a big success elsewhere if he plays in his natural position. Just unfortunately for him he’s never going to get in ahead of Dack and rightly so. 

Going to need a quality replacement to offer competition but importantly they need to be a natural wideman.  Maddison would be on my list but not sure if he fits in with TM ideals. We are crying out for a wideman with pace. 

[FGS5635]

To be honest palmer just stole some limited playing time from Rothwell.

Hopefully its now time to let him off the leash

[RoverCanada]

12 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

His age is irrelevant for me. If we're spending £7m on a player he needs to be going straight into the side as first choice in his chosen position. As others have said we aren't a Man City who can afford to spend £7m on a player and stockpile them, the rest of the side isn't good enough and it's even more relevant when we've got FFP waiting to bite us in the arse after a 3 year period.

Not necessarily. His transfer fee, whatever it is in the end, will be amortised. So the year-on-year accounting cost isn't all that large. Looks like Brereton's on a 3-year deal, so if the fee is £7m, that's an accounting cost of £2.3m/year (which is what applies for FFP). If Brereton's value appreciates and he's sold, that would be a major profit that would be booked in one year, which would potentially single-handedly offset any FFP-breaching concerns. (Dack is our current 'ace in the hole' at the moment if we're ever at risk of seriously breaching FFP, as he was signed for only £750k, which will be fully amortised soon, so any fee for him would be pure profit. I don't think we have much to worry about FFP-wise over the next 3-5 years)

Frankly, our owners probably do have the financial wherewithal to 'stockpile' an 'intangible asset' like Brereton, which we hope is an appreciating asset. The owners also appear ready and willing to stomach £10-15m losses every year (my suspicion is they lost their patience/nerve/liquidity when we had £30m+ losses). Taking a punt on highly touted 19-year-old (who are rarely 'available') may be how we try to take advantage of our owner's deep pockets while also being a low-revenue Championship side.

(I'm purposefully setting aside the question of whether a £7m signing should be immediately ready to be in the starting lineup, or if that £7m could be better spent on veterans. Certainly a discussion to be had there! But Brereton's signing does have a financial logic to it)

[Mercer]

1 hour ago, blueboy3333 said:

Not transfer related but Mogga is bigging up Butterworth in the LT today. 

“Danny Butterworth travelled with us at the weekend because when he trains with the first team he rips it up. He can stick it through people’s legs and burst past them like Bradley (Dack) does and then rattle it in to the bottom corner. Somewhere along the line he will probably get an opportunity – but I’m not sat here saying we’re going to be relying on young 19-year-old kids"

Does he play in Dack's position?

"but I’m not sat here saying we’re going to be relying on young 19-year-old kids"

Sadly, I think this speaks volumes about Mowbray.

It's simple, if they are good enough they are old enough.

Take Lewis Travis, he is 21 years old and I think Mowbray talks about him like he's a fresh faced 16 year old.

Goodness knows what our promising young lads must think and is it any wonder Mahoney left. 

[SBlue]

5 minutes ago, Mercer said:

5 minutes ago, Mercer said:

What you can compare are the circumstances.  You have no idea just how tight money then was.  At times in those days, the managers were known to have paid the milk and electricity bills.  We trained on a mudheap at Altham - even under Kenny, training was at Pleasington until Brockhall!  What previous managers have had to contend with and what they produced was remarkable.  In comparison, Mowbray has state of the art facilities and has spent £millions.

 

Most teams in the league do though, it's all relative.

[JHRover]

7 minutes ago, DE. said:

We had a decent start to the season but I think teams have worked out how to nullify us (just stop Dack) and there's no evidence that our "wide forwards" are having any impact. We're extremely reliant on Graham, Dack and Mulgrew and have been lucky they've been available for most of the season. To make Tony's formation work properly you're looking at quite significant upgrades across the park, imo, whereas getting a more traditional and attritional formation to work may only require bringing in a proper winger/wide midfielder or two alongside a decent centre back. 

I was looking it up the other day about this reliance we have on the 'Fab 3' for putting the ball in the net. We've scored 33 goals in the league this season - Mulgrew 8, Dack 9, Graham 8, Armstrong 2, Reed 2, Lenihan 1, Palmer 1, OG1. 0 goals for Brereton, Evans, Smallwood, Conway, Rothwell or Bennett.

All of Mulgrew's goals have come directly from set-pieces - 4 penalties, 2 direct corners and 2 free kicks.

Whilst those 3 are here, fit and firing we can cope, but I do worry about the alternatives.

[BlackburnEnd75]

45 minutes ago, OnePhilT said:

To say that we've struggled for a consistent line-up and are weak in two or three positions, our formation has served us very well. 15th is still above the expectations of bookies, and we are comfortably clear of danger. It's those two or three positions that could really do with being addressed in this window if we are to establish ourselves in the top-half.

I don't think we play with inside forwards. I think we play with one defensive winger (Bennett, Conway, Reed) and one attack minded inverted winger (Armstrong/ Palmer/Rothwell). It's still a flat 4 in the middle. We still use a right footer on the right, no reasons why we can't go get a proper winger to replace Palmer.

[DE.]

11 minutes ago, OnePhilT said:

You mean like West Brom and Newcastle stopped Dack? ?

You're right - we are reliant on Dack, Mulgrew, and Graham for our goals, but so what? That's three sources - some teams don't even have one! In our title-winning season, we only had two. ?

I don't really get this argument about relying on certain players to be honest. If Liverpool lost Salah, who is probably as valuable to their team as Dack is to ours, I doubt anybody in Liverpool's squad could replace his impact. They would have to bring somebody like Coutinho in to alleviate the reliancy and have similar quality, but I can't imagine he'd be happy playing second-fiddle, just as Palmer probably wasn't happy doing that at Rovers.

Leave the formation - it's fine. Get the players to fit one of the wide-forward positions and a left-back who can actually defend properly, and things would fare a lot better. It's personnel that needs sorting.

Obviously you rely on big players to give you an extra edge, but goals should be much more spread out across our team than they currently are. The inside forwards (who, remember, are naturally strikers) should be scoring far more. If this formation was working correctly they would be. Instead half the time our inside forwards look useless because they're strikers being forced to behave as wingers.

To say the formation is fine after we've been hammered 4-1 by Bristol City & Preston, also beaten 3-1 by Wigan and ended up on a 9 game winless streak only recently ended by a scrappy home win against WBA doesn't hold water with me. Overall league position is OK at present, although more or less where I expected us to be, but 42 goals conceded and -8 GD tells us that there's still something not right with the current system.

Whether you believe it's down to personnel or formation is up for debate, although surely you play the formation best suited for the players you have, rather than shoehorning players into roles they clearly aren't comfortable with? I'm far from convinced that the way we're normally set up with two defensive mids, two inside forwards and full backs who sometimes play as wing backs is the right formation for our current personnel. Defensively it certainly hasn't been good enough. Our last clean sheet was 3rd November, ten games ago (eleven if you count the cup match just gone). 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, DE. said:

Obviously you rely on big players to give you an extra edge, but goals should be much more spread out across our team than they currently are. The inside forwards (who, remember, are naturally strikers) should be scoring far more. If this formation was working correctly they would be. Instead half the time our inside forwards look useless because they're strikers being forced to behave as wingers.

To say the formation is fine after we've been hammered 4-1 by Bristol City & Preston, also beaten 3-1 by Wigan and ended up on a 9 game winless streak only recently ended by a scrappy home win against WBA doesn't hold water with me. Overall league position is OK at present, although more or less where I expected us to be, but 42 goals conceded and -8 GD tells us that there's still something not right with the current system.

Whether you believe it's down to personnel or formation is up for debate, although surely you play the formation best suited for the players you have, rather than shoehorning players into roles they clearly aren't comfortable with? I'm far from convinced that the way we're normally set up with two defensive mids, two inside forwards and full backs who sometimes play as wing backs is the right formation for our current personnel. Defensively it certainly hasn't been good enough. Our last clean sheet was 3rd November, ten games ago (eleven if you count the cup match just gone). 

Don’t think it’s a question of personnel myself and all formation. They aren’t world beaters don’t get me wrong but some of our players should be performing better than they have this season and for them all to be in bad form at the same time points to either the manager or the formation/tactics.

[OJRovers]

I don't think there's much wrong with our starting formation, given the players we have. Our downfall this season has been in the last 15 mins of matches. Usually the time when we've made subs.

Priority has to be to bring in some players that are either good enough to play in our current system i.e. a Graham replacement or a proper wide forward. OR bring in players good enough to play in a changed formation i.e. proper wingers.

At the moment the subs aren't good enough for either.

 

[roversfan99]

2 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Being played out of position isn't helping him. I hope he starts up font against Newcastle next week. I think it would be an ideal game for him. 

I may have been watching different games but most of his recent appearances have been central, not wide.

I think we should really go to beat Newcastle and then Watford and I dont think Brereton starting over Graham reflects that or is deserved.

[Mercer]

32 minutes ago, Mellor Rover said:

Don’t think it’s a question of personnel myself and all formation. They aren’t world beaters don’t get me wrong but some of our players should be performing better than they have this season and for them all to be in bad form at the same time points to either the manager or the formation/tactics.

The buck stops with the manager.

The manager buys players, sells players, decides what areas to strengthen, coaches the players, selects the players and sets the team up with formation and tactics.

Think most fans realise the priorities were a commanding centre half and a left back.  Instead, we commit a fortune on an 'apprentice' striker who has added nothing to the team.  And let's not forget that two of our 'big' three were signed by C o y l e !  Other than Dack, I think Mowbray's player trading has been very poor.  Travis has proved he can cut it at this level and should be one of the first names down on the team sheet, however, it will be no surprise if Mowbray doesn't ship this 21 year old 'kid' off on loan somewhere.  If Butterworth is that good in training, as Mowbray claims, why on earth has this 19 year old not been given his chance.

I think the coaching, formation and tactics are all poor.  I can't see either a structure or purpose to our play.  Too many square pegs in round holes for starters.  In my view, most of the football under Mowbray has been dire and some have the gall to criticise Big Sam.  We are so susceptible to conceding in the last quarter of a game and I think that's down to poor game management (coaching) and a lack of both physical and mental fitness (for which the manager has responsibility).

I'd actually take Bowyer over Mowbray because at the end of the day he did bring what turned out to be some very good players into the club.

[Ewood Ace]

A shame to see Palmer go one one the few players with a bit of flair and creativity in our squad. I think under a manager that likes to play football and take the handbreak he would excel and be a top player at this level.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Mercer said:

The buck stops with the manager.

The manager buys players, sells players, decides what areas to strengthen, coaches the players, selects the players and sets the team up with formation and tactics.

Think most fans realise the priorities were a commanding centre half and a left back.  Instead, we commit a fortune on an 'apprentice' striker who has added nothing to the team.  And let's not forget that two of our 'big' three were signed by C o y l e !  Other than Dack, I think Mowbray's player trading has been very poor.  Travis has proved he can cut it at this level and should be one of the first names down on the team sheet, however, it will be no surprise if Mowbray doesn't ship this 21 year old 'kid' off on loan somewhere.  If Butterworth is that good in training, as Mowbray claims, why on earth has this 19 year old not been given his chance.

I think the coaching, formation and tactics are all poor.  I can't see either a structure or purpose to our play.  Too many square pegs in round holes for starters.  In my view, most of the football under Mowbray has been dire and some have the gall to criticise Big Sam.  We are so susceptible to conceding in the last quarter of a game and I think that's down to poor game management (coaching) and a lack of both physical and mental fitness (for which the manager has responsibility).

I'd actually take Bowyer over Mowbray because at the end of the day he did bring what turned out to be some very good players into the club.

He did, however Mowbray's actual management is far superior to Bowyers in my opinion. They share similarities in some ways i guess in that Bowyer tried to be too clever with Cairney out wide and ultimately it cost us promotion, not top 6. That team should have been promoted no ifs and buts about it.

Bowyers strength was undoubtedly his recruitment, his actual management was more baffling than Mowbray's. I remember travelling all round the country for about 3 months straight only playing one up top when we had the 2 best strikers in the league, the best playmaker at right midfield and Marshall at right back. People forget the amount of games we sat through with a midfield 2 of Lowe and Williamson.

[Bigdoggsteel]

26 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I may have been watching different games but most of his recent appearances have been central, not wide.

I think we should really go to beat Newcastle and then Watford and I dont think Brereton starting over Graham reflects that or is deserved.

So can we expect Brereton to improve and integrate into how we play if he isn't given game time? 

You agree with Mowbray about not relying on 19 year olds anyway  

the Newcastle game is sandwiched between 2 big league games. Games in which wins will probably mean we will be safe for this season. The Newcastle game is an ideal time to rest Graham. We can still set out to win it 

Newcastle will play their reserves , plus the draw for them is one that hardly excites their fans. The game is ours for the taking. Full strength, with Brereton up top is how I would go. 

Edited January 8, 2019 by Bigdoggsteel

[Bigdoggsteel]

9 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

A shame to see Palmer go one one the few players with a bit of flair and creativity in our squad. I think under a manager that likes to play football and take the handbreak he would excel and be a top player at this level.

I didn't see much to suggest he would be a top player at this level. He looked ok on the ball, but didn't do the dirty stuff well at all. Not many teams in this division can afford such a  luxury. 

[Guest]

Unfortunately it seems things are being kept tightly under wraps at our club at the moment for transfers which is slightly annoying as fans but good in the long term.

Mowbray went public in condemning those leaking our dealings for Brereton/Freeman stating it drove costs up and as a result seems to be very vague in his interviews. We also signed Davenport for 4 years when everyone thought it was on loan, Rothwell when not a single outlet reported it, Palmer was reported as done before any speculation hit, etc etc. We've also offloaded Palmer without anyone knowing anything about it apart from a vague interview quote made in passing about 4 weeks ago.

Wouldn't surprise me if we signed someone tomorrow out of the blue.

[Mercer]

3 minutes ago, Mellor Rover said:

He did, however Mowbray's actual management is far superior to Bowyers in my opinion. They share similarities in some ways i guess in that Bowyer tried to be too clever with Cairney out wide and ultimately it cost us promotion, not top 6. That team should have been promoted no ifs and buts about it.

Bowyers strength was undoubtedly his recruitment, his actual management was more baffling than Mowbray's. I remember travelling all round the country for about 3 months straight only playing one up top when we had the 2 best strikers in the league, the best playmaker at right midfield and Marshall at right back. People forget the amount of games we sat through with a midfield 2 of Lowe and Williamson.

I wasn't a Bowyer fan and I think you are right with your observations about him at Rovers - we had a great opportunity and I think he bottled it.  In fairness to Bowyer, I think he did a cracking job at Blackpool (as do a couple of friends who follow Blackpool).

However, I think you are wrong to say "Mowbray's actual management is far superior to Bowyer's".  Based on what I've seen of Mowbray, I doubt he would have done as well as Bowyer did at Blackpool under enormously difficult circumstances.

Sadly, I don't think history will look too kindly on Mowbray's reign here.

[AAK]

Chap who is fairly well 'in' at Rovers told me over the weekend that we have made an enquiry about loaning Leighton Baines for 6 months.