ROVERS v Sheff Wed

[Ewood Ace]

 

  On 29/11/2018 at 13:30, bluebruce said:

Will Travis have good positional sense in a position he has never played? On a side that's his wrong foot?

It doesn't matter whether you're right that he should be played there this game (I don't think you are for what it's worth), Mowbray isn't going to do it. This game is crucial now, he just said back to basics, he doesn't seem to rate Travis as highly as most of us do...I'd bet a significant amount of money that he won't line up at left back for this match.

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I know he won't pick Travis but I would, I don't know how after the last few games how he could justify picking Bell or Williams and I could guarantee that Travis wouldn't be any worse. Last night's line up was back to basics it was the same set up he has used the last 18 months (and mostly the same players) and as I said we looked basic.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Bell and Williams have been pish, but I wonder does having Armstong on their side make their job more difficult. Nyambe has reed or Bennett there. 

[chaddyrovers]

  On 29/11/2018 at 13:30, Ewood Ace said:

Well if they are playing with 5 across the midfield I would imagine there is some width otherwise the centre of midfield would be rather crowded.  

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Wing backs

Do you know who he played last game? 

[Ewood Ace]

  On 29/11/2018 at 13:46, chaddyrovers said:

Wing backs

Do you know who he played last game? 

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The idea of Wing backs is that when you have the ball they get forward and give you width on the wing. Reach and Matias both played their last game and they are both wide men and Forestieri has also been playing wide this season. 

[Oldgregg86]

Travis is right footed. Playing him at left back is an accident waiting to happen. Bell or Williams might not be the answer but Travis is certainly not 

Edited November 29, 2018 by Oldgregg86

[roversfan99]

  On 29/11/2018 at 13:27, chaddyrovers said:

Dack needs dropping. his form is awful and people have worked us out and we need to change it up. His performances in the last 2 games have been pathetic. any other player you would drop him?

I would drop him and play Rothwell there

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Everyone has been pathetic in the last games. And will continue to be with our thoughtless long ball tactics.

I would drop any other player yes, the reason I wouldnt drop Dack is because hes our best player, our top and practically only goalscorer and Mowbray needs to come up with a better way of getting the best from him.

  On 29/11/2018 at 14:46, OnePhilT said:

I'd love to see us play in a way whereby we mount attacks and create more chances from open play, but based on recent evidence, that isn't going to happen. If the quality of other more established teams is kicking in, then so be it, but we really need to stop collapsing and giving up; that only leads to heavy defeats, and that is the worst thing for everyone, because we'll soon find ourselves in a relegation battle. Let's hope the team doesn't get us anywhere near those thoughts. We talk about must-win, but with the way the players are at the moment, this really is a must not lose - the worrying thing is that we could lose to anybody at this moment in time.

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The fact that creating chances from open play is an unrealistic ambition is pretty saddening!

[1864roverite]

A very difficult game for Rovers on the back of 2 away derby thrashings. TM and co have to get this right from the 1st minute.

Dack will be marked out if the game as the opposition know he makes us tick therefore we need a plan b which I don’t think we have.

3-5-2 for me

we might sneak a scrappy win but would take a draw, defeat is not an option

[Bigdoggsteel]

  On 29/11/2018 at 15:03, roversfan99 said:

Everyone has been pathetic in the last games. And will continue to be with our thoughtless long ball tactics.

I would drop any other player yes, the reason I wouldnt drop Dack is because hes our best player, our top and practically only goalscorer and Mowbray needs to come up with a better way of getting the best from him.

The fact that creating chances from open play is an unrealistic ambition is pretty saddening!

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You say Mowbray needs to come up with a way to get the best from him, but most of the time he plays in exactly the same position as last season. You reference his goals a lot. Should Mowbray get credit for them? 

A couple of those goals hit the post and the conversation is simply that he has not made the step up to this level. 

I wouldn't go as far as saying he had been lucky with the goals, but do you think he will keep that up over the season? 

[chaddyrovers]

  On 29/11/2018 at 13:53, Ewood Ace said:

The idea of Wing backs is that when you have the ball they get forward and give you width on the wing. Reach and Matias both played their last game and they are both wide men and Forestieri has also been playing wide this season. 

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Baker and Penney play has the wing backs. Reach and Mathis play more as inside wide players. 

  On 29/11/2018 at 15:03, roversfan99 said:

Everyone has been pathetic in the last games. And will continue to be with our thoughtless long ball tactics.

I would drop any other player yes, the reason I wouldnt drop Dack is because hes our best player, our top and practically only goalscorer and Mowbray needs to come up with a better way of getting the best from him.

The fact that creating chances from open play is an unrealistic ambition is pretty saddening!

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We tried it and teams marked Dack out of the game. 

Any suggestions? 

Sheff Wed will sit deep and probably man mark Dack. 

So how would you try to get Dack more involve? 

[Fraserkirky]

It was so strange, the switch to 3-5-2 at halftime seemed to be working to an extent before Rodwells clanger/slip.

We just weren't moving the ball quick enough, and very little off the ball movement. If Mowbray really wants to play that going forward then a proper left wing back in January is a must.

My Team for Sheffield Wednesday:

----------------------Raya--------------------------

-------Rodwell-Lenihan-Mulgrew----------

Nyambe-------------------------------Bennett

---------------Reed-----Rothwell--------------

-------------------Palmer-------------------------

-----------Brereton-----Armstrong---------

Now I know no one is going to be thrilled to see Rodwell at the back here, but the only other option is er Downing or Williams. 

Bennett, out of position, yeah he is but again who else do you want Bell? Conway? Least he has the energy to put a shift in. 

Harsh on Dack, but he needs a rest/boot up the arse. Palmer and Rothwell played well in the same team away at Bolton so they need a chance.

Tony has a tough time here, he gets blamed for tinkering but then accused of not dropping non performers. One thing for sure the 4-5-1 we play is NOT working.

Not enough soilders in the middle of the park? That's been our problem this year, Evans and Smallwood trying to do the same job. You need those three in there to be creative and make things happen. 

Key here is for Armstrong and Brereton to actually move in space, and play in the channels. 

Edited November 29, 2018 by Fraserkirky

[JHRover]

  On 29/11/2018 at 16:21, Fraserkirky said:

It was so strange, the switch to 3-5-2 at halftime seemed to be working to an extent before Rodwells clanger/slip.

 

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We do that a lot. Get on top, causing the opposition a few problems, and then the first counter attack or attempt they have they score. Last night, Preston did it on Saturday and got their 3rd with virtually their first attempt of the 2nd half, Bristol City dismantled us as we applied pressure and they cantered through on the counter attack, Swansea we had on the rack, looked like we might push for an equaliser then straight down the other end and its 3-1. Even Forest and Villa managed to snatch points off us when we looked to be comfortable and cruising to the win.

We have phases in games. When we're ahead or level we seem to leave it to the opposition to force the issue and persist with our boring passing it around slowly getting nowhere. The only time we show any proper urgency is when we're trailing and need a goal, and then we go too far the other way and go gung ho leaving massive spaces at the back for the opposition to pick us off. Rarely do we punish the opposition with pace or speed.

 

Edited November 29, 2018 by JHRover

[BankEnd Rover]

  On 29/11/2018 at 16:21, Fraserkirky said:

It was so strange, the switch to 3-5-2 at halftime seemed to be working to an extent before Rodwells clanger/slip.

We just weren't moving the ball quick enough, and very little off the ball movement. If Mowbray really wants to play that going forward then a proper left wing back in January is a must.

My Team for Sheffield Wednesday:

----------------------Raya--------------------------

-------Rodwell-Lenihan-Mulgrew----------

Nyambe-------------------------------Bennett

---------------Reed-----Rothwell--------------

-------------------Palmer-------------------------

-----------Brereton-----Armstrong---------

Now I know no one is going to be thrilled to see Rodwell at the back here, but the only other option is er Downing or Williams. 

Bennett, out of position, yeah he is but again who else do you want Bell? Conway? Least he has the energy to put a shift in. 

Harsh on Dack, but he needs a rest/boot up the arse. Palmer and Rothwell played well in the same team away at Bolton so they need a chance.

Tony has a tough time here, he gets blamed for tinkering but then accused of not dropping non performers. One thing for sure the 4-5-1 we play is NOT working.

Not enough soilders in the middle of the park? That's been our problem this year, Evans and Smallwood trying to do the same job. You need those three in there to be creative and make things happen. 

Key here is for Armstrong and Brereton to actually move in space, and play in the channels. 

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I think mowbray is the only one who can't see the problem. Saying that i think he can see it, he just doesn't want to break that midfield partnership up from league 1. Things have to change and FAST!

[Mike E]

  On 29/11/2018 at 16:21, Fraserkirky said:

It was so strange, the switch to 3-5-2 at halftime seemed to be working to an extent before Rodwells clanger/slip.

We just weren't moving the ball quick enough, and very little off the ball movement. If Mowbray really wants to play that going forward then a proper left wing back in January is a must.

My Team for Sheffield Wednesday:

----------------------Raya--------------------------

-------Rodwell-Lenihan-Mulgrew----------

Nyambe-------------------------------Bennett

---------------Reed-----Rothwell--------------

-------------------Palmer-------------------------

-----------Brereton-----Armstrong---------

Now I know no one is going to be thrilled to see Rodwell at the back here, but the only other option is er Downing or Williams. 

Bennett, out of position, yeah he is but again who else do you want Bell? Conway? Least he has the energy to put a shift in. 

Harsh on Dack, but he needs a rest/boot up the arse. Palmer and Rothwell played well in the same team away at Bolton so they need a chance.

Tony has a tough time here, he gets blamed for tinkering but then accused of not dropping non performers. One thing for sure the 4-5-1 we play is NOT working.

Not enough soilders in the middle of the park? That's been our problem this year, Evans and Smallwood trying to do the same job. You need those three in there to be creative and make things happen. 

Key here is for Armstrong and Brereton to actually move in space, and play in the channels. 

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I’d swap Rodwell and Lenihan to put Rodwell centre. That way he can nudge forward into midfield for an easy transition into 4-3-1-2

[Fraserkirky]

  On 29/11/2018 at 16:42, Mike E said:

I’d swap Rodwell and Lenihan to put Rodwell centre. That way he can nudge forward into midfield for an easy transition into 4-3-1-2

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Yep fine with that.

[roversfan99]

  On 29/11/2018 at 15:58, Bigdoggsteel said:

 

You say Mowbray needs to come up with a way to get the best from him, but most of the time he plays in exactly the same position as last season. You reference his goals a lot. Should Mowbray get credit for them? 

A couple of those goals hit the post and the conversation is simply that he has not made the step up to this level. 

I wouldn't go as far as saying he had been lucky with the goals, but do you think he will keep that up over the season? 

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His recent lean spell has been in the spell when he has been moving from 10 to 9 and vice versa, no continuity, and he has always looked lost as a 9. It has also been amidst a slump in the level of performances in general where our lack of attacking plan has been particularly highlighted. We have not been very creative in open play all season to be honest but we have done enough and scored a few from set pieces to grind out results. 

I think he deserves criticism for his form but I cant fathom how you can justify dropping your best player and primary goalscorer in the spite of any alternatives who suggest they could get the goals that dropping Dack would remove.

Nothing to suggest not. People said the same about Rhodes, and he continued to get the "lucky goals" and continued to get people perplexed as to why he was so lucky to always be in the right position at the right time.

I have always thought that goalscoring has somehow become underestimated in judging a player. What sort of argument is that if he had hit the post a few times people would have suggested he hasnt made the step up.

  On 29/11/2018 at 16:06, chaddyrovers said:

Baker and Penney play has the wing backs. Reach and Mathis play more as inside wide players. 

We tried it and teams marked Dack out of the game. 

Any suggestions? 

Sheff Wed will sit deep and probably man mark Dack. 

So how would you try to get Dack more involve? 

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We need to develop some sort of plan in terms of sustaining attacks, not just for the benefit of Dack, but also the likes of Palmer, Rothwell and Armstrong etc.

You don't like the long ball stat and theres also the stat of us scoring 5 in 9 home games from open play, and weve not scored in 12 of our first halfs this season. These stats are all damning of what I forsee to be an absence of a consistent, effective, tactical strategy in terms of mounting attacks. 

Graham has done brilliantly this season just making anything from a constant stream of long balls, often aimless punts, and Mowbray can stand on the touchline getting frustrated but hes responsible for setting us up and the players are carrying out his game plan. If yesterday was a one off then youd say fair enough but it isnt.

Under Mowbray, weve been at our best when weve played at a high tempo, the stat about us starting games suggest hes being overcautious as to the step up in quality, but its coming at a cost of us by making our attack toothless. We dont look like a team that ever works on how it sustains and creates attacks in training.

We also often bypass the midfield obviously, I don't think his over-reliance and loyalty towards the likes of Bennett, Evans and in particular Smallwood does anything for us in terms of helping us to work through the lines. We never get Dack on the ball in between the lines. 

I do still think that our transfer recruitment was really poor in the summer, we are really short in terms of centre backs, we have no cover at right back, no quality at all at left back, we are a striker light and have no width, and a series of his signings all that dont seem fit for purpose in their respective areas that Mowbray hasnt got anything out of really so far. So we are working in spite of a very inefficient summer spending a considerable amount of money.

[Bigdoggsteel]

  On 29/11/2018 at 18:21, roversfan99 said:

His recent lean spell has been in the spell when he has been moving from 10 to 9 and vice versa, no continuity, and he has always looked lost as a 9. It has also been amidst a slump in the level of performances in general where our lack of attacking plan has been particularly highlighted. We have not been very creative in open play all season to be honest but we have done enough and scored a few from set pieces to grind out results. 

I think he deserves criticism for his form but I cant fathom how you can justify dropping your best player and primary goalscorer in the spite of any alternatives who suggest they could get the goals that dropping Dack would remove.

Nothing to suggest not. People said the same about Rhodes, and he continued to get the "lucky goals" and continued to get people perplexed as to why he was so lucky to always be in the right position at the right time.

I have always thought that goalscoring has somehow become underestimated in judging a player. What sort of argument is that if he had hit the post a few times people would have suggested he hasnt made the step up.

We need to develop some sort of plan in terms of sustaining attacks, not just for the benefit of Dack, but also the likes of Palmer, Rothwell and Armstrong etc.

You don't like the long ball stat and theres also the stat of us scoring 5 in 9 home games from open play, and weve not scored in 12 of our first halfs this season. These stats are all damning of what I forsee to be an absence of a consistent, effective, tactical strategy in terms of mounting attacks. 

Graham has done brilliantly this season just making anything from a constant stream of long balls, often aimless punts, and Mowbray can stand on the touchline getting frustrated but hes responsible for setting us up and the players are carrying out his game plan. If yesterday was a one off then youd say fair enough but it isnt.

Under Mowbray, weve been at our best when weve played at a high tempo, the stat about us starting games suggest hes being overcautious as to the step up in quality, but its coming at a cost of us by making our attack toothless. We dont look like a team that ever works on how it sustains and creates attacks in training.

We also often bypass the midfield obviously, I don't think his over-reliance and loyalty towards the likes of Bennett, Evans and in particular Smallwood does anything for us in terms of helping us to work through the lines. We never get Dack on the ball in between the lines. 

I do still think that our transfer recruitment was really poor in the summer, we are really short in terms of centre backs, we have no cover at right back, no quality at all at left back, we are a striker light and have no width, and a series of his signings all that dont seem fit for purpose in their respective areas that Mowbray hasnt got anything out of really so far. So we are working in spite of a very inefficient summer spending a considerable amount of money.

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It's the argument that his goals have glossed over the fact he hasn't played well this season 

[roversfan99]

  On 29/11/2018 at 18:33, Bigdoggsteel said:

It's the argument that his goals have glossed over the fact he hasn't played well this season 

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I appreciate that, but my point is that goals are the most important part in any attacking players game, and the goals alone justify his place, and show that he is having a big impact.

If he has an average overall game but gets a goal, hes had a good game.

Goals are not the icing on a performance cake, they are critical and the main source of judgement.

[Ossydave]

I may seem slightly bonkers but I can see us banging a few in on Saturday, 4-1 Rovers. Sometimes you need knocking down (twice in our case) to come back stronger. It's impossible to imagine the team spirit has been completely ripped out in such a short space of time. 

[RevidgeBlue]

The problem with dropping Dack is that whilst theoretically he might benefit from the kick up the arse of being benched for a couple of games, no - one else has looked particularly capable of  scoring in his absence. Whilst he was really poor at Preston I thought his commitment levels were far better at Wigan but he was fighting a losing battle in that side on the night.

Massive shake up needed for me, whilst the manager might have caused it with his bizarre selections, the players still need to know that the lack of commitment shown in the last couple of games isn't acceptable. Personally I'd go

Raya

Nyambe Mulgrew Downing Bell

Travis Reed Rothwell

Palmer Dack

Brereton

Maybe go 2 up top with Graham and Brereton together up front after an hour if that isn't working.

Doubt TM will do anything like that, I would expect changes to be kept to a minimum with more of the same and a primarily safety first approach again.

[Stuart]

The “Drop Dack and Attack” formation... talk me down from the ledge...

(Bring him on later in the game. Maybe.)

[BankEnd Rover]

  On 29/11/2018 at 19:19, Ossydave said:

I may seem slightly bonkers but I can see us banging a few in on Saturday, 4-1 Rovers. Sometimes you need knocking down (twice in our case) to come back stronger. It's impossible to imagine the team spirit has been completely ripped out in such a short space of time. 

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That depends on the starting 11

[BankEnd Rover]

  On 29/11/2018 at 19:26, RevidgeBlue said:

The problem with dropping Dack is that whilst theoretically he might benefit from the kick up the arse of being benched for a couple of games, no - one else has looked particularly capable of  scoring in his absence. Whilst he was really poor at Preston I thought his commitment levels were far better at Wigan but he was fighting a losing battle in that side on the night.

Massive shake up needed for me, whilst the manager might have caused it with his bizarre selections, the players still need to know that the lack of commitment shown in the last couple of games isn't acceptable. Personally I'd go

Raya

Nyambe Mulgrew Downing Bell

Travis Reed Rothwell

Palmer Dack

Brereton

Maybe go 2 up top with Graham and Brereton together up front after an hour if that isn't working.

Doubt TM will do anything like that, I would expect changes to be kept to a minimum with more of the same and a primarily safety first approach again.

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But why can't he see it and action the changes? It's just baffles me!! Take a risk! Play our quality! If we play well and loose I'm not bothered! If he keeps the same team or makes very little change then he is not fit to manage this club! Times ticking Tony!

[RevidgeBlue]

  On 29/11/2018 at 19:49, BankEnd Rover said:

But why can't he see it and action the changes? It's just baffles me!! Take a risk! Play our quality! If we play well and loose I'm not bothered! If he keeps the same team or makes very little change then he is not fit to manage this club! Times ticking Tony!

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Well yes. If we try to be a bit more expansive, it might not work and we might get walloped 3 or 4-1!

Oooo errr hang on ..........?

[blueboy3333]

  On 29/11/2018 at 12:11, Bigdoggsteel said:

I clearly meant since his last goal. He has done little to nothing. Even in the games where he scored ,he did little else.

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Aye, cos Palmer's been a revelation

[K-Hod]

Palmer has scored for us though, to be fair. He is wasteful in possession at times, but I do think he gets way too much of a hard time on here.