Sunderland Netflix documentary

[Tom]

  On 24/12/2018 at 14:27, J*B said:

James Cordens production company are behind it, if anyone is interested.

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Great are you trying to make me not like it?

[Fraserkirky]

Loved it. The boy Bain was a bit strange.

Coleman came across well if a bit of a wannabe. Kit Symons hinging on his coattails!!

[Mattyblue]

Jason Steele was interesting. I heard when he was here that he had a few issues and had regular sessions with a sports psychologist.

Seeing him on this shows that he’s a very fragile lad. But christ he makes some ricks.

[K-Hod]

Was a great programme this.

Anyone blaming Rodwell needs to give their head a wobble. Literally not his fault they offered him a daft contract. Why on earth would anyone walk away from that? Mental. 

[Stuart]

  On 26/12/2018 at 17:55, K-Hod said:

Was a great programme this.

Anyone blaming Rodwell needs to give their head a wobble. Literally not his fault they offered him a daft contract. Why on earth would anyone walk away from that? Mental. 

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It almost doesn’t matter who is at fault. Footballers are on short contracts compared to the working person.

It is a team sport and if you end up in a position where one man is more important than the team then it’s a problem.

Rodwell, or his agent, must have insisted on the no relegation clause in his salary for it to be there. I expect at the time relegation was unthinkable - or, looking at the characters involved - it could well have been an over-sight.

If you earn yourself a reputation as a mercenary (whether deserved or not) you may find your next contract hard to come by.

He was in the right but he was maybe looking at it short term or has no plans to be in the game for long and was making his money while he could.

I think Bains went about it the wrong way he suggesting Rodwell should tear up his contract and should have found some kind of way forward.

Also compare and contrast with Pepe at Besiktas.

[Bigdoggsteel]

  On 26/12/2018 at 18:11, Stuart said:

It almost doesn’t matter who is at fault. Footballers are on short contracts compared to the working person.

It is a team sport and if you end up in a position where one man is more important than the team then it’s a problem.

Rodwell, or his agent, must have insisted on the no relegation clause in his salary for it to be there. I expect at the time relegation was unthinkable - or, looking at the characters involved - it could well have been an over-sight.

If you earn yourself a reputation as a mercenary (whether deserved or not) you may find your next contract hard to come by.

He was in the right but he was maybe looking at it short term or has no plans to be in the game for long and was making his money while he could.

I think Bains went about it the wrong way he suggesting Rodwell should tear up his contract and should have found some kind of way forward.

Also compare and contrast with Pepe at Besiktas.

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Don't get you. 

Bain didn't offer any sweetener so it's irrelevant. 

As for a no relegation clause. If I had an agent, I would be hoping it was in there. Especially if I went to Sunderland. Are you saying its somehow bad to request one if the team are willing? Thank God you aren't my agent. 

Pepe is a world class defender who had played many seasons for real Madrid. He will have no shortage of offers. Sunderland were refusing to play Rodwell because they were paying him too much and wanted to force him out. Not comparable. 

Talking about Steele seeing a psychologist. If Rodwell walked away, he would need to see one. 

[Stuart]

  On 26/12/2018 at 19:45, Bigdoggsteel said:

Don't get you. 

Bain didn't offer any sweetener so it's irrelevant. 

As for a no relegation clause. If I had an agent, I would be hoping it was in there. Especially if I went to Sunderland. Are you saying its somehow bad to request one if the team are willing? Thank God you aren't my agent. 

Pepe is a world class defender who had played many seasons for real Madrid. He will have no shortage of offers. Sunderland were refusing to play Rodwell because they were paying him too much and wanted to force him out. Not comparable. 

Talking about Steele seeing a psychologist. If Rodwell walked away, he would need to see one. 

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You have missed the point I was making.

If he wanted the money (for the two or three years he had left) then that’s fine. He had a contract, that was his prerogative.

But...

At that time (not any more) he could have gone on a free transfer to a PL club on at least the same money.

He chose the former and now, post Sunderland - is struggling to find anyone willing to take him on. At 27. He could have been earning the money he was on for much longer had he handled it differently.

In tandem, now that this bloke is amongst our team, our team spirit has noticeably declined. Next time you are at Ewood, just watch Rodwell warning up. Hardly any Rovers players speak to him. He comes across as a bit of a loner. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he has upset the spirit that was such a feature in this group. Whether it was his fault or not is almost irrelevant. He will be seen by some as someone out for himself. Of course there will be others saying “good on yer, about time a player got the best deal out of a contract” - but that in itself could create factions - even if unspoken.

Yes, he had every right to point to his contract, tough it out and simply bare face everyone. Bad karma for all concerned though.

[Bigdoggsteel]

  On 26/12/2018 at 19:57, Stuart said:

You have missed the point I was making.

If he wanted the money (for the two or three years he had left) then that’s fine. He had a contract, that was his prerogative.

But...

At that time (not any more) he could have gone on a free transfer to a PL club on at least the same money.

He chose the former and now, post Sunderland - is struggling to find anyone willing to take him on. At 27. He could have been earning the money he was on for much longer had he handled it differently.

In tandem, now that this bloke is amongst our team, our team spirit has noticeably declined. Next time you are at Ewood, just watch Rodwell warning up. Hardly any Rovers players speak to him. He comes across as a bit of a loner. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he has upset the spirit that was such a feature in this group. Whether it was his fault or not is almost irrelevant. He will be seen by some as someone out for himself. Of course there will be others saying “good on yer, about time a player got the best deal out of a contract” - but that in itself could create factions - even if unspoken.

Yes, he had every right to point to his contract, tough it out and simply bare face everyone. Bad karma for all concerned though.

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The part highlighted is hardly true. If it was, he would have gone. I heard no mention of any other club willing to match his wages. Not when they were relegated to the championship and certainly not when they went down to league 1. Even if a club did want him. He is under no obligation to leave. 

You say he had a contract that should be honoured, that is the bottom line really. 

As for your theme today that he is somehow responsible for damaging team morale. Bit of a leap Stuart. An unsubstantiated leap. 

Anyway, even if he is up there in Joey Barton terms of being a jerk, it shouldn't matter a shit. 

We have real issues in the team. No need for straw men! 

Edited December 26, 2018 by Bigdoggsteel

[Stuart]

  On 26/12/2018 at 20:14, Bigdoggsteel said:

The part highlighted is hardly true. If it was, he would have gone. I heard no mention of any other club willing to match his wages. Not when they were relegated to the championship and certainly not when they went down to league 1. Even if a club did want him. He is under no obligation to leave. 

You say he had a contract that should be honoured, that is the bottom line really. 

As for your theme today that he is somehow responsible for damaging team morale. Bit of a leap Stuart. An unsubstantiated leap. 

Anyway, even if he is up there in Joey Barton terms of being a jerk, it shouldn't matter a shit. 

We have real issues in the team. No need for straw men! 

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I’m going to stop trying to explain it to you.

[Bigdoggsteel]

  On 26/12/2018 at 20:19, Stuart said:

I’m going to stop trying to explain it to you.

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Thank God 

Can anyone who understands Stuart's point please explain it to me? 

Edited December 26, 2018 by Bigdoggsteel

[old darwen blue]

I don’t think he likes Rodwell basically for some reason. Maybe he asked him for an autograph and was refused, anything possible in Stuart land. 

[K-Hod]

  On 26/12/2018 at 18:11, Stuart said:

It almost doesn’t matter who is at fault. Footballers are on short contracts compared to the working person.

It is a team sport and if you end up in a position where one man is more important than the team then it’s a problem.

Rodwell, or his agent, must have insisted on the no relegation clause in his salary for it to be there. I expect at the time relegation was unthinkable - or, looking at the characters involved - it could well have been an over-sight.

If you earn yourself a reputation as a mercenary (whether deserved or not) you may find your next contract hard to come by.

He was in the right but he was maybe looking at it short term or has no plans to be in the game for long and was making his money while he could.

I think Bains went about it the wrong way he suggesting Rodwell should tear up his contract and should have found some kind of way forward.

Also compare and contrast with Pepe at Besiktas.

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Being honest, I think you’re looking for something that isn’t there. Also, Pepe at end of his career and Rodwell midway through his. 

[Stuart]

  On 27/12/2018 at 09:20, K-Hod said:

Being honest, I think you’re looking for something that isn’t there. Also, Pepe at end of his career and Rodwell midway through his. 

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Do you think he did the right things for the good of his career long term? First insisting on a clause, and then sticking up to fingers at the club and his team mates? In my opinion, this showed that his priority was making as much money as possible in the short term. If you are a golfer then it’s no issue but in a team sport, that could create a bad atmosphere (if it comes to light).

The fact that Rodwell is midway through his career is exactly why I believe he should have behaved differently. Had he gone back to the chairman and said: “look, my agent has looked into a free transfer and nobody is willing to match my contract, will you make up the difference?” then nobody could have said anything.

What makes me laugh most though, is that people are defending one of the game’s biggest mercenaries [granted, as portrayed in the press and programme] yet Conor Mahoney “only cared about the money” and “should have accepted” the poor contract and little or no playing time’ despite being on peanuts in comparison.

[Tom]

Just passed the episode where Coleman comes in. If you didn’t know the story you’d be convinced that things would end up differently with the tonal change 

One thing I find a little jarring is the editing, watching now and they are playing Barnsley in January but some of the shots of the players pre game they have poppies on the shirt and some of shots of away fans have charlton shirts on, not even sure when they would have played Charlton as they weren’t in the same league!

[Butty]

  On 27/12/2018 at 22:18, Tom said:

Just passed the episode where Coleman comes in. If you didn’t know the story you’d be convinced that things would end up differently with the tonal change 

One thing I find a little jarring is the editing, watching now and they are playing Barnsley in January but some of the shots of the players pre game they have poppies on the shirt and some of shots of away fans have charlton shirts on, not even sure when they would have played Charlton as they weren’t in the same league!

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With every episode things like this stood out more and more, I quite enjoyed the series as a whole but Jesus some of the production was so amateurish. 

[Tom]

  On 28/12/2018 at 01:44, Butty said:

With every episode things like this stood out more and more, I quite enjoyed the series as a whole but Jesus some of the production was so amateurish. 

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There was one when it was focussing on the keeper situation and Steele was in goal, then it showed a shot of the bench and he was sat there!

[Mattyblue]

As you say Tom, a lot of the crowd shots were at a totally different match than the game they were showing.

I.e they’d be away at Bolton, but it would show fans at the Stadium of Light. Though I suppose, only nerds like us would notice such things!

Edited December 28, 2018 by Mattyblue

[Stuart]

The show was clearly aimed at an American audience. Many of the cut scenes looked like they were done for dramatic effect. Pretty sure they added American Football style sound effects for crunching tackles too.

I actually thought that the number of empty seats would have looked pretty pitiful to US audiences used to seeing stadiums pretty full with far greater capacities. (Yes, I appreciate there are geographical reasons for that but this is Sunderland, I was a bit shocked myself!).

[Mattyblue]

They usually have around 20,000+ empty seats every week, that just doesn’t fit the narrative of the ‘passionate north east’ (three league clubs in a whole region and we are supposed to marvel at the fact decent numbers go to those 3).

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

  On 28/12/2018 at 09:52, Mattyblue said:

They usually have around 20,000+ empty seats every week, that just doesn’t fit the narrative of the ‘passionate north east’ (three league clubs in a whole region and we are supposed to marvel at the fact decent numbers go to those 3).

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40k plus at home to Bradford the other day.

[Mattyblue]

For Boxing Day after a massive marketing drive.

Since relegation from the PL they usually have 25,000 to 28,000. In a 49,000 capacity.

Old Lancashire is the heartland of the game, not the north east.

[Stuart]

  On 28/12/2018 at 11:49, Mattyblue said:

For Boxing Day after a massive marketing drive.

Since relegation from the PL they usually have 25,000 to 28,000. In a 49,000 capacity.

Old Lancashire is the heartland of the game, not the north east.

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So why don’t Lancashire clubs market that more? I can see why Liverpool and the two Manc clubs don’t (because they are happy to hoover up the arm-chair-football-fans) but the rest could make a big deal about the number of fans who watch football between them.

On average, over 90,000 people watch league football in Lancashire. If you include City, United, Liverpool, and Everton that rises to over 300,000 football fans.

700 sq miles

1.4m people

21% of the population of Lancashire watch league football, in person.

Just under 10% watch the non-big-4 clubs.

 

[Mattyblue]

About 100,000 people watch league football in the north east out of a population of 2.6 million.

What a hotbed!

[Stuart]

  On 28/12/2018 at 13:57, Mattyblue said:

About 100,000 people watch league football in the north east out of a population of 2.6 million.

What a hotbed!

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Hard not to feel a little paranoid really!

It’s grim ap nouwf.

[JacknOry]

  On 29/12/2018 at 01:28, OnePhilT said:

I just binge-watched five episodes before my mobile gave up. It's a good production, overall, and it's a unique insight into how clubs that are on the way down and have had the money tap turned off have to operate. 

Grayson seemed like a "yes" man; he came across as very weak, and in absolutely no way was he the right man for that task.

Coleman arrived as the Messiah, especially after two wins in his first two games, but, like Grayson, he could barely get anything good out of a downbeat and (amazingly) threadbare squad. He was absolutely suckered into the size of the club, rather than the deep mess it was in. You could probably say the same about every manager that Venkys have appointed, and it makes you wonder just what the hell Tony has done to make it work for himself.

Bain came across as complacent, incompetent, and arrogant. It's no wonder Sunderland plummeted down two leagues with him running the show, even if Short turned off the money tap. A disastrous combination.

Other than those things, it makes you realise how things are run behind the scenes at even big football clubs, what players go through under management changes, and how some players (such as Williams and Steele) can be just as fragile as any other human being, and that they aren't all self-absorbed arseholes.

Steele must have been delighted at getting the move to Sunderland, but very quickly hated it, especially when the manager who signed him dropped him without much warning (which Ruiter also didn't think was a good idea) - that probably reflects on a poor manager more than anything.

Can't wait to finish the rest!

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Mental toughness is extremely important for a top keeper IMO. When they make a mistake it generally leads to a goal and they have to be able to put that aside very quickly and move on. I think this is why Steele will never be a top keeper (though he has somehow forged himself a decent career and can only imagine Brighton brought him in as some cheap home-grown never-to-play player to even out the numbers) as he seems unable to handle it all.