Venkys - Welcome or Not?

[glen9mullan]

7 hours ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

@glen9mullan Are you still in charge of substitutions??

Hopefully will touch on that subject, as it was the trigger to finding out something much deeper, which was happening when the Kentaro agreement was no longer in place

[glen9mullan]

Another classic, from the Man involved in trying to takeover Burnley:

 

Dear Shebby,

 

I thought I would send yourself and the owners a summary of the Judge’s verdict on our application to remove the admission of liability to pay Henning Berg a salary calculation over 2 1/2 years. 

 

You will recall Derek Shaw and Brabners admitted liability for this sum without informing the owners.  This can be evidenced by Derek Shaw’s conversation with Brabners which is on the file where it states “she will not like this but will have to do it and ease it into her”. 

 

Our Application on 16th April 2013 was to attempt to remove / withdraw the admission of liability and go to a trial to hear this matter in full. 

 

You will be aware from my previous notes that upon investigating this matter further and going through the witness statement with Derek Shaw that I did have deep reservations about this matter going to full trial as a result of feeling that Derek Shaw would not make a reliable witness as he seemed to be unsure of key events. 

 

In short, the Judge today has dismissed our Application to withdraw the admission.  As such, the admission by Derek Shaw and Brabners will stand and a further sum of monies (approximately £50k) will have to be paid to Henning Berg on to of the monies already paid.

 

The Judge found that:

 

1)         He did not believe the evidence as submitted by Derek Shaw;

 

2)         Derek Shaw had not told Henning Berg or his advisors that he did not have the authority to enter into that contract;

 

3)         Derek Shaw removed the 12 month notification period from the contract and it was, he found, acceptable for Henning Berg and his advisors to rely upon Derek Shaw’s authority to bind the owners;

 

4)         There was contradictory evidence before him (letters regarding the investigation viz a viz notification on the Club’s official website that their was no investigation);

 

5)         The Club had neither suspended nor terminated Derek Shaw’s contract therefore: -

 

            he did not believe the admission should be withdrawn and Judgment should be entered against the Club.

 

The situation the Club faces itself in is, in my opinion, wholly unfair and results from the removal of the twelve month notification period and the initial admission of liability.  This factor is even more frustrating when you consider the point at calculation of the monies owed to Henning Berg under the contract is higher than the amount of money he would have earned if he had remained at the Club for the full duration.  We must not forget that payment ought to have been made within a ridiculously short length of time of 28 days.  This again is a mistake that had been made either by the MD or by Brabners Chaffe Street when drafting the contract.

 

Next Step

 

In my opinion the Club now have to consider the following:

 

1.         The position of the MD;

 

2.         Whether there are any legal grounds to pursue a claim for damages against Brabners; and

 

3.         Protection for the owners at Boardroom level.

 

I am happy to advise briefly (and in more detail if requested) as follows:

 

a)         The actions by the MD, either deliberately or by mistake which may constitute gross misconduct and as such suspension / termination are available by way of remedy to the Club immediately.  In addition, contractually the Club has the right to pursue such damages against the MD.  The owners must consider this matter.

 

b)         Potentially, as a result of the advice that has been given by Brabners, and in some cases not given, could lead to a potential action against Brabners for damages.  We should consider this in detail; and

 

c)         Currently the owners do not appear to have any one of their representatives on the Board and as such, I am concerned that the owners are not protected at Boardroom level.  Consideration should be given to (perhaps yourself) being appointed to the Board and therefore being in a position to carry out the owners’ wishes.  In addition, the position of the MD could also be reviewed (please see my earlier point).

 

I have to say that for this situation to arise at MD level of a Plc is quite extraordinary and in my view in football is unprecedented. 

 

I would strongly urge for an urgent review of the structure and corporate governance of the Club in order to avoid a repeat or confrontation between the Board and the owners, both of which would be highly damaging to the Club. 

 

Undoubtedly the Club has received over the last few days some bad publicity as a result of the Henning Berg situation and may do so in tomorrow’s press.  I would therefore expect that the fans and the press will expect the owners to act decisively on this matter.

 

I wish to reassure both yourselves and the owners from a legal point of view that everything that could be done was done. 

 

In addition, the Club will also be liable for not only its own legal costs but those of the advisors to Henning Berg.

 

Should you wish to speak with me to discuss please do not hesitate to contact me on my mobile (07748 980 707)

 

Kind regards

 

Yours sincerely

 

Chris Farnell
Partner
IPS Law LLP

(dictated not read)

David House

10-12 Cecil Road

Hale

Cheshire

WA15 9PA

DDT: +44 (0)161 830 4717
Fax: +44 (0)161 830 4711

Linked In: http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/chris-farnell/9/618/380
www.ipslaw.co.uk

 

[chaddyrovers]

On 18/11/2020 at 20:53, Miller11 said:

What time is this being broadcast and can questions been sent in the show?

[PeteJD13]

2 hours ago, glen9mullan said:

Another classic, from the Man involved in trying to takeover Burnley:

 

Dear Shebby,

 

I thought I would send yourself and the owners a summary of the Judge’s verdict on our application to remove the admission of liability to pay Henning Berg a salary calculation over 2 1/2 years. 

 

You will recall Derek Shaw and Brabners admitted liability for this sum without informing the owners.  This can be evidenced by Derek Shaw’s conversation with Brabners which is on the file where it states “she will not like this but will have to do it and ease it into her”. 

 

Our Application on 16th April 2013 was to attempt to remove / withdraw the admission of liability and go to a trial to hear this matter in full. 

 

You will be aware from my previous notes that upon investigating this matter further and going through the witness statement with Derek Shaw that I did have deep reservations about this matter going to full trial as a result of feeling that Derek Shaw would not make a reliable witness as he seemed to be unsure of key events. 

 

In short, the Judge today has dismissed our Application to withdraw the admission.  As such, the admission by Derek Shaw and Brabners will stand and a further sum of monies (approximately £50k) will have to be paid to Henning Berg on to of the monies already paid.

 

The Judge found that:

 

1)         He did not believe the evidence as submitted by Derek Shaw;

 

2)         Derek Shaw had not told Henning Berg or his advisors that he did not have the authority to enter into that contract;

 

3)         Derek Shaw removed the 12 month notification period from the contract and it was, he found, acceptable for Henning Berg and his advisors to rely upon Derek Shaw’s authority to bind the owners;

 

4)         There was contradictory evidence before him (letters regarding the investigation viz a viz notification on the Club’s official website that their was no investigation);

 

5)         The Club had neither suspended nor terminated Derek Shaw’s contract therefore: -

 

            he did not believe the admission should be withdrawn and Judgment should be entered against the Club.

 

The situation the Club faces itself in is, in my opinion, wholly unfair and results from the removal of the twelve month notification period and the initial admission of liability.  This factor is even more frustrating when you consider the point at calculation of the monies owed to Henning Berg under the contract is higher than the amount of money he would have earned if he had remained at the Club for the full duration.  We must not forget that payment ought to have been made within a ridiculously short length of time of 28 days.  This again is a mistake that had been made either by the MD or by Brabners Chaffe Street when drafting the contract.

 

Next Step

 

In my opinion the Club now have to consider the following:

 

1.         The position of the MD;

 

2.         Whether there are any legal grounds to pursue a claim for damages against Brabners; and

 

3.         Protection for the owners at Boardroom level.

 

I am happy to advise briefly (and in more detail if requested) as follows:

 

a)         The actions by the MD, either deliberately or by mistake which may constitute gross misconduct and as such suspension / termination are available by way of remedy to the Club immediately.  In addition, contractually the Club has the right to pursue such damages against the MD.  The owners must consider this matter.

 

b)         Potentially, as a result of the advice that has been given by Brabners, and in some cases not given, could lead to a potential action against Brabners for damages.  We should consider this in detail; and

 

c)         Currently the owners do not appear to have any one of their representatives on the Board and as such, I am concerned that the owners are not protected at Boardroom level.  Consideration should be given to (perhaps yourself) being appointed to the Board and therefore being in a position to carry out the owners’ wishes.  In addition, the position of the MD could also be reviewed (please see my earlier point).

 

I have to say that for this situation to arise at MD level of a Plc is quite extraordinary and in my view in football is unprecedented. 

 

I would strongly urge for an urgent review of the structure and corporate governance of the Club in order to avoid a repeat or confrontation between the Board and the owners, both of which would be highly damaging to the Club. 

 

Undoubtedly the Club has received over the last few days some bad publicity as a result of the Henning Berg situation and may do so in tomorrow’s press.  I would therefore expect that the fans and the press will expect the owners to act decisively on this matter.

 

I wish to reassure both yourselves and the owners from a legal point of view that everything that could be done was done. 

 

In addition, the Club will also be liable for not only its own legal costs but those of the advisors to Henning Berg.

 

Should you wish to speak with me to discuss please do not hesitate to contact me on my mobile (07748 980 707)

 

Kind regards

 

Yours sincerely

 

Chris Farnell
Partner
IPS Law LLP

(dictated not read)

David House

10-12 Cecil Road

Hale

Cheshire

WA15 9PA

DDT: +44 (0)161 830 4717
Fax: +44 (0)161 830 4711

Linked In: http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/chris-farnell/9/618/380
www.ipslaw.co.uk

 

now there is the name of someone who has been involved in some interesting football clubs, bury, rovers,charlton, wigan

[PeteJD13]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

What time is this being broadcast and can questions been sent in the show?

its on this sunday I think 1pm send questions in via our twitter or FB page 

[chaddyrovers]

57 minutes ago, PeteJD13 said:

its on this sunday I think 1pm send questions in via our twitter or FB page 

Thanks Pete. I will be listening live to it..

[glen9mullan]

Fully enjoyed doing the podcast with Radio Rovers, Was quite long, hopefully managed to get some things in there that people did not know. Can be difficult remembering everything, during one conversation. I thank Duncan for giving me the opportunity to discuss the last 10 years

[Miller11]

36 minutes ago, glen9mullan said:

Fully enjoyed doing the podcast with Radio Rovers, Was quite long, hopefully managed to get some things in there that people did not know. Can be difficult remembering everything, during one conversation. I thank Duncan for giving me the opportunity to discuss the last 10 years

Absolute pleasure mate! Gonna make for a cracking show!

[Admiral Nelsen]

On 19/11/2020 at 16:35, Mattyblue said:

Think you are misreading the mood Dreams, like I said on the last page there’s been a real sea change in how they are perceived since League 1.

Away from this board, I seldom hear anything negative towards them. Indeed if I aired my views at Ewood these days I’d probably get rounded upon...

I can't speak for others, but I don't think there's much in the way of a significant number of 'pro-Venkys' Rovers fans. 

The divide as far as I see it is the group who believe (rightly or wrongly) that Venkys are necessary/inevitable/manageable in the short term and those who see getting rid of them as the main priority for the football club. I agree that many more fans would now fit in the first category rather than the second compared to when Coyle was in charge, but I don't think it's fair to characterise this as a sea change in how they are perceived in any meaningful way. 

Take a straw poll of Rovers fans of all persuasions and I'm certain the vast majority will say that Venkys have been a disaster - how could they not? We almost all agree that the decisions that were made under their stewardship have wrecked the club. Where lots of us differ is how we can best move forward from where are now, but I don't think you'll find too many fans in the more pragmatic camp using words like 'welcome' or 'forgiveness'. Completely misses the point, and arguing about that sort of language  serves to exaggerate the percentage of fans who are actively pro-Venkys, of whom I'm convinced there are a pretty derisory number. 

[Miker]

Just my opinion, but I don’t know why things need to be so black and white as far as Venkys and the ‘protesters’ are concerned.

There was some clearly shady dealings going on during the Kean era and the overall management of the club was shambolic. People were rightly angered at what was going on and the efforts that the likes of Glen et al put in to shine a light on it all and expose it for what it was has to be commended. I think it’s to everyone’s great credit that the penny finally dropped with the owners and Kean was eventually sacked, ties with Kentaro were cut etc.

However, I think what has to be recognised is that Venkys haven’t just turned off the taps or sold up just because they were the target of a lot of hatred from the club’s supporters. They’ve actually made efforts to rectify their past mistakes by investing in our academy, covering our losses, funding transfers and putting the right people in place to run the club (finally). 

To me that speaks volumes about their character and their intentions. I’m not expecting many on here to agree with me on that point and I’m sure many don’t even agree that the right people are running the club now, but for me I see a major difference between then and now.

I’m in a completely different boat to most on here being an overseas fan, but this is the most connected I’ve felt to the club in a long time. I am not 100% convinced by Mowbray, but he is the right sort of manager that I want at the club. He’s also brought in the ‘right’ sort of players to the club. Seeing a back four of academy players in JRC, Lenihan, Wharton and Nyambe a few weeks back was a great feeling. We are light years away from the days of Kean, Shaw, Danny Murphy, Orr, Duffy etc.

[philipl]

Being pragmatic, if Rovers were offered for sale today, the sort of people who destroyed Wigan, Bolton, Bury, Macclesfield, Chester... would undoubtedly be pushing aggressively to buy us.

This is the most uncontroversial post I have written on brfcs.com

[Mattyblue]

6 hours ago, Admiral Nelsen said:

I can't speak for others, but I don't think there's much in the way of a significant number of 'pro-Venkys' Rovers fans. 

The divide as far as I see it is the group who believe (rightly or wrongly) that Venkys are necessary/inevitable/manageable in the short term and those who see getting rid of them as the main priority for the football club. I agree that many more fans would now fit in the first category rather than the second compared to when Coyle was in charge, but I don't think it's fair to characterise this as a sea change in how they are perceived in any meaningful way. 

Take a straw poll of Rovers fans of all persuasions and I'm certain the vast majority will say that Venkys have been a disaster - how could they not? We almost all agree that the decisions that were made under their stewardship have wrecked the club. Where lots of us differ is how we can best move forward from where are now, but I don't think you'll find too many fans in the more pragmatic camp using words like 'welcome' or 'forgiveness'. Completely misses the point, and arguing about that sort of language  serves to exaggerate the percentage of fans who are actively pro-Venkys, of whom I'm convinced there are a pretty derisory number. 

I would have totally agreed... until recently. Now? There’s been a definite move to actual support and gratitude towards them, not just ‘we have to put up with them, we’ve no alternative’

If you haven’t spotted that shift, fair enough, but it’s happened.

[Roving Mick]

The Men from V.I.R.U.S.

[AllRoverAsia]

3 hours ago, Miker said:

Just my opinion, but I don’t know why things need to be so black and white as far as Venkys and the ‘protesters’ are concerned.

There was some clearly shady dealings going on during the Kean era and the overall management of the club was shambolic. People were rightly angered at what was going on and the efforts that the likes of Glen et al put in to shine a light on it all and expose it for what it was has to be commended. I think it’s to everyone’s great credit that the penny finally dropped with the owners and Kean was eventually sacked, ties with Kentaro were cut etc.

However, I think what has to be recognised is that Venkys haven’t just turned off the taps or sold up just because they were the target of a lot of hatred from the club’s supporters. They’ve actually made efforts to rectify their past mistakes by investing in our academy, covering our losses, funding transfers and putting the right people in place to run the club (finally). 

To me that speaks volumes about their character and their intentions. I’m not expecting many on here to agree with me on that point and I’m sure many don’t even agree that the right people are running the club now, but for me I see a major difference between then and now.

I’m in a completely different boat to most on here being an overseas fan, but this is the most connected I’ve felt to the club in a long time. I am not 100% convinced by Mowbray, but he is the right sort of manager that I want at the club. He’s also brought in the ‘right’ sort of players to the club. Seeing a back four of academy players in JRC, Lenihan, Wharton and Nyambe a few weeks back was a great feeling. We are light years away from the days of Kean, Shaw, Danny Murphy, Orr, Duffy etc.

I would not lump Duffy with the others mentioned.

He was a young emerging footballer who turned into a complete twat to force a transfer away from a madhouse, so it can be argued that his atrocious behaviour  towards the end of his time at Rovers was for personal and footballing reasons.

The others were complicit to varying degrees in much worse. I deem them cunts.

[Admiral Nelsen]

2 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

I would have totally agreed... until recently. Now? There’s been a definite move to actual support and gratitude towards them, not just ‘we have to put up with them, we’ve no alternative’

If you haven’t spotted that shift, fair enough, but it’s happened.

 

Entirely possible that I've just not picked up a shift during the pandemic. It's true that I've seen the odd post on social media which have used words like welcome & forgiveness, but then again these platforms are well known for amplifying minority voices.

I'll take some convincing that the large majority of match-going fans aren't Venkys-sceptics in some form or another, albeit with a large an increasing number with a bit of a pragmatic response.

As you say though, I could be wrong.

[Mattyblue]

Not scientific at all, but take a straw poll with those around you when we are back in Ewood (whenever the feck that is), I’d be surprised if you didn’t notice it. 

There had already been a massive change in attitudes with match going fans I know and my away game crew in recent times in comparison to say 2016, nevermind 2012.

[arbitro]

4 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Not scientific at all, but take a straw poll with those around you when we are back in Ewood (whenever the feck that is), I’d be surprised if you didn’t notice it. 

There had already been a massive change in attitudes with match going fans I know and my away game crew in recent times in comparison to say 2016, nevermind 2012.

The friends and family I go with very rarely give them a mention, probably a case of out of sight, out of mind so I can't gauge how they feel. I think that's the case with a lot of fans who don't use message boards and other social media.

[Mattyblue]

I’d agree that they are rarely mentioned unless prompted.

I’d say we are the Mowbray Club now more than anything, I can’t recall a time where one figurehead seemingly dominates all aspects of the club (well maybe Jack) and conversation between fans - enduringly popular too.

Though perhaps not surprising due to the power vacuum this regime has created within a hollowed out club.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Mattyblue

[matt83]

I’ve been totally nauseated this week by the Lancashire evening telegraph’s pro Venky propaganda. For all we hit the nadir with Kean and then coyle I think they’re as useless today as they were then, they’re just less involved.

Currently whether fans think we should replace Mowbray or not the one think I think everyone agrees on is that there is little chance the Venkys will make a half way decent decision. Even appointing Mowbray, which has worked out better than anyone dare think at the time, it was probably more to do with a certain Middlesbrough based football agency than any grand plans. 

The boardroom led by Swag is still a shambles. For all they unfathomably pay the bill (well run up debt with the bank of India) my position on them is unchanged over the decade never forgive never forget.

The Venkys are scum of the earth. 

[Mattyblue]

The international break, unfortunately, was  inadvertently badly timed to coincide with the ‘anniversary’, it meant the LT had loads of blank space day after day to fill with ‘drawer stories’.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Mattyblue

[arbitro]

1 hour ago, Mattyblue said:

I’d agree that they are rarely mentioned unless prompted.

I’d say we are the Mowbray Club now more than anything, I can’t recall a time where one figurehead seemingly dominates all aspects of the club (well maybe Jack) and conversation between fans - enduringly popular too.

Though perhaps not surprising due to the power vacuum this regime has created within a hollowed out club.

Yes Matty it's now apparent that Mowbray has engineered himself into a pretty much autonomous position, more by chance though I think. Lots have bought into his slow build mantra and in fairness he does a decent selling job on most aspects of the playing side to the masses, mainly through his good honest guy, working class stuff. He is undoubtedly the best appointment they have made after a succession of crooks and under achievers and lots of fans are happy with that fact. My view is that it's a really low bar.

Personally I don't buy all his bluster.

[AllRoverAsia]

13 minutes ago, arbitro said:

Yes Matty it's now apparent that Mowbray has engineered himself into a pretty much autonomous position, more by chance though I think. Lots have bought into his slow build mantra and in fairness he does a decent selling job on most aspects of the playing side to the masses, mainly through his good honest guy, working class stuff. He is undoubtedly the best appointment they have made after a succession of crooks and under achievers and lots of fans are happy with that fact. My view is that it's a really low bar.

Personally I don't buy all his bluster.

Have to ask why this self proclaimed open, honest man of the people has (appointed) a charlatan called Swag as his lackey in all but job description.

I dont buy any of his bullshit.  

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

6 hours ago, Miker said:

I am not 100% convinced by Mowbray, but he is the right sort of manager that I want at the club. He’s also brought in the ‘right’ sort of players to the club. Seeing a back four of academy players in JRC, Lenihan, Wharton and Nyambe a few weeks back was a great feeling. We are light years away from the days of Kean, Shaw, Danny Murphy, Orr, Duffy etc.

I think that's pretty much my view. He's brought some excellent players to the club (and some overpriced mediocrity) and has done well integrating the Academy lads into the first team. The club really was in a sorry state after Coyle so credit where it's due. And getting us back into the Championship first time of asking was no mean feat either if you consider the clubs that have languished in Div 1 for years.

Sadly,  I just don't think he'll ever get us in the Prem, or even the PO's. 

[BlackburnEnd75]

10 hours ago, Miker said:

Just my opinion, but I don’t know why things need to be so black and white as far as Venkys and the ‘protesters’ are concerned.

There was some clearly shady dealings going on during the Kean era and the overall management of the club was shambolic. People were rightly angered at what was going on and the efforts that the likes of Glen et al put in to shine a light on it all and expose it for what it was has to be commended. I think it’s to everyone’s great credit that the penny finally dropped with the owners and Kean was eventually sacked, ties with Kentaro were cut etc.

However, I think what has to be recognised is that Venkys haven’t just turned off the taps or sold up just because they were the target of a lot of hatred from the club’s supporters. They’ve actually made efforts to rectify their past mistakes by investing in our academy, covering our losses, funding transfers and putting the right people in place to run the club (finally). 

To me that speaks volumes about their character and their intentions. I’m not expecting many on here to agree with me on that point and I’m sure many don’t even agree that the right people are running the club now, but for me I see a major difference between then and now.

I’m in a completely different boat to most on here being an overseas fan, but this is the most connected I’ve felt to the club in a long time. I am not 100% convinced by Mowbray, but he is the right sort of manager that I want at the club. He’s also brought in the ‘right’ sort of players to the club. Seeing a back four of academy players in JRC, Lenihan, Wharton and Nyambe a few weeks back was a great feeling. We are light years away from the days of Kean, Shaw, Danny Murphy, Orr, Duffy etc.

I agree with a lot of this. There is one inaccuracy though and that was Kean was never sacked. He walked (under pressure). 

For me an apology for Kean and the earlier mistakes would go a long way especially whilst they have their actions over the last few years to back it up. I think it would help draw a line for a lot of people who want to let go of that anger but can't

Edited November 21, 2020 by BlackburnEnd75
Spelling

[arbitro]

5 minutes ago, AllRoverAsia said:

Have to ask why this self proclaimed open, honest man of the people has (appointed) a charlatan called Swag as his lackey in all but job description.

I dont buy any of his bullshit.  

My view is that it strengthened his position within the club. It gives him even greater autonomy having a chief executive who he had a hand in appointing. If the rumours of Swag retiring are true his successor will be an interesting appointment.