Venkys - Welcome or Not?

[tomphil]

Just now, JacknOry said:

I also assumed our wage bill would be highest in the league considering we had five of the leagues highest earners in our squad. That Powell of theirs is probably on fair whack though.

We signed some league 1 players though so even doubling their wage would still have been modest maybe. Also a lot of our high earners had relegation clauses and we weren't fighting off advances from other clubs for money given the age of some of them where as i'd reckon Wigan will have had to persuade Grigg, Powell etc to stay with money.

[JBiz]

23 minutes ago, tomphil said:

We signed some league 1 players though so even doubling their wage would still have been modest maybe. Also a lot of our high earners had relegation clauses and we weren't fighting off advances from other clubs for money given the age of some of them where as i'd reckon Wigan will have had to persuade Grigg, Powell etc to stay with money.

Powell, Mulgrew, Evans, Shaun McDonald, Graham, Bennett, Ward.

League 1 top earners 

 

[tomphil]

3 minutes ago, Biz said:

Powell, Mulgrew, Evans, Shaun McDonald, Graham, Bennett, Ward.

League 1 top earners 

 

No doubt Evans wages will go up again now, I really wish someone would take that guy. With the exception of Ward who's gone thankfully the rest justify their wedge in my eyes.

[JBiz]

Just now, tomphil said:

No doubt Evans wages will go up again now, I really wish someone would take that guy. With the exception of Ward who's gone thankfully the rest justify their wedge in my eyes.

I’m guessing we’re talking 25%.

In some ways I completely agree on Evans, but I guess at times he’s actually done a decent job.

If he does leave, the memory of him will be he was better for NI in his time here, and normally injured for us.

[Oldgregg86]

I have never seen Cory Evans have so much as a good half. Can't understand why people still think he can do a job going forward

[tomphil]

6 minutes ago, Oldgregg86 said:

I have never seen Cory Evans have so much as a good half. Can't understand why people still think he can do a job going forward

A few decent performances towards the end of the season but I think he falls into the category of wouldn't really be missed if he left or put it another way wouldn't be to hard to replace like Lowe wasn't . My point is he isn't worth 15 grand per week in the Championship at a club whose budget might be limited because you just don't get a lot back from him on a regular basis.

[JacknOry]

Definitely not worth his wage - second top earner at Rovers? Would not even get in my starting eleven. His wages could be better used elsewhere but he has a year left right? Something tells me you might to see him upping his performances next season in the hope of a new contract.

[JacknOry]

On wages, I imagine Dack will be put on far improved terms. Around the 10k mark or more I guess...wonder what he was on the season just gone?

[Herbie6590]

22 hours ago, Crimpshrine said:

I know that you have studied the accounts and often quote the £250m figure but I just find it all very suspect. Is it £120m worth of shares (which they can sell ) and £130 debt (which they have borrowed).

In the last set of accounts turnover is £16m and wages £22.6m so the recent  issuing of shares probably covers the difference.

On top of that there is a declared loss of £17.9m for the year but this does not seem to be itemised anywhere - where is this explained in the accounts?

Cash in the bank is only £223,806 and the overdraft is nearly £14m! with £109m owed elsewhere that seems incredible to me.

How do these figures compare to other clubs ? creative accounting maybe.

I’ll try to clarify - all refs to the June 2017 BRFC a/cs 

 

Venky’s “investment” is £147m in shares plus £95m lent from the parent - this is the “£250m” figure often referenced.

T/O to June 17 was £14.9m, wages were £19.4m.

I presume your figures are from VLL ?

 

When you say that they can sell the shares, technically you are correct, but who is buying ?

Of the total debt of £115m - £95m is borrowed from Venky’s - IMO that’s better than borrowing from the bank because V’s lend interest free unlike the bank.

 

 

 

[Herbie6590]

12 hours ago, DE. said:

No, the truth is that Venky's have built up a debt of £250m over the last 7 years and helped relegate us to a league we hadn't been in since 1980. We're now at a point where the manager has to go with a begging bowl to India every summer, hoping to get a budget to compete with bottom end Championship clubs. 

They took us over as a stable, mid-table PL club with only £20m debt. We had an experienced, respected manager and board room. The squad needed a little work but there wasn't that much to do. To suggest we should in any way be grateful to Venky's for paying for this mess they themselves have caused is frankly insulting, although coming from a Burnley fan it doesn't really mean that much. Unfortunately there are Rovers fans with your abhorrent viewpoint too, and that hurts more.

For absolute clarity - the debt in BRFC a/cs is c.£115m not £250m.

[Herbie6590]

10 hours ago, tomphil said:

Just standing back and looking at it how much actually out of pocket could they be termed to be ?

When they bought the club it cost c23 million and had a 16 million bank debt and 3 million loan from the Walker Trust on the books, also I think in the terms of sale there was to be 10 million invested immediately for the 'betterment' of the club.

They themselves indicated investment of 5 mill per window would be forthcoming so 10 mill per season which is probably what the parent company was comfortably prepared to 'lose' in the books.

So in the 8 years nearly they've been here that's 80 million they were prepared for plus the original purchase price etc which all comes in at around 129 million.

Is that not near or roundabout the figure on the VLL share capital books ?

The share capital in BRFC a/cs is £147m. They are also have lent £95m interest free as at June 2017.

[Herbie6590]

8 hours ago, PLJPB said:

Could I ask where this £250m figure is coming from? 

The BRFC accounts to 30/6/17 show £94.8m owing to the Parent Company (Venkys London Limited). They also show £146.9m share capital. But £134m of this share capital was already in place before Venkys bought the club. Therefore I calculate their total investment to be £94.8 + 146.9 -134 = around £ 108m.

The Venkys London Accounts show that at 30/6/17 the total share capital was £132m. I cannot find any evidence that the Raos have put any money directly into BRFC - it has all gone through VLL therefore their maximum investment must be the £132m VLL share capital. I'm not sure what the difference between the 108 and the 132 is but maybe its the £23m they actually paid for the club.

In summary, my understanding of the published accounts is that all the funding for BRFC has gone via Venkys London Limited and since at 30/6/17 it had £132m share capital, this £132m is the maximum they had put in at that date.

The point re VLL is spot on, but it’s still Venky’s money. The “£250m” was quoted as V’s approximate investment ie the shares plus the interest free debt that you reference above.

[Herbie6590]

8 hours ago, Crimpshrine said:

As an earlier post suggests, I know nothing about company accounts. My repeated question, which maybe someone could answer, is where in the accounts are the outgoings itemised.  The accounts keep declaring more losses each year but I don't see any detail anywhere. That is why I question whether Venky's really have poured in £250m. where has the money gone?

Share value wise, Venky's companies worldwide are at an all time high - up 1600% in two years.

They are paying off their corporate debts at a rapid rate while their net worth is high - see the graph on the web page link below. 

So why is Rovers debt continuing to grow?  It doesn't fit with Venky's other companies. Why is there so little money in the bank with a stated overdraft of £13m ?

I am very worried that when their stock is not so high we will be in real trouble.

https://simplywall.st/stocks/in/food-beverage-tobacco/nse-venkys/venkys-india-shares/news/are-venkys-india-limiteds-nsevenkys-interest-costs-too-high/

Corporate law doesn’t require disclosure at a level of invoice by invoice, just by categories. The June 2017 BRFC a/cs show a headline expenses figure of £27.9m. Wages & on-costs accounts for £22m of that expense in the year to June 2017. 

[Herbie6590]

Here’s some stuff that got posted in another thread a couple of weeks back....

[Herbie6590]

In summary...we took a lot of money in when we were in the Premier League...but still made a loss.

V’s made some “interesting” deals which cost money; managers, agents, players...we lost a lot more money.

We went down twice. V’s cut the cloth accordingly. We lost money.

I would not be surprised to see a bigger loss in June 18’s a/cs given League One income levels.

That said...it’s been managed relatively prudently in the last 2 years. Had a new owner bought us at the beginning of 2016/7 season and turned in those numbers on falling t/o I would have been impressed with their acumen.

Of course, the massive difference here is that it is V’s that got us into this mess initially...

[PLJPB]

6 minutes ago, Herbie6590 said:

The point re VLL is spot on, but it’s still Venky’s money. The “£250m” was quoted as V’s approximate investment ie the shares plus the interest free debt that you reference above.

But they only paid £23 m for the £134 m share capital already in existence when they bought the club. Therefore your figure is £111 m too high.

[Herbie6590]

2 minutes ago, MCMC1875 said:

Correct PLJPB!

Herbie out FFS!!

It’s a fair cop...?

[Crimpshrine]

1 hour ago, Herbie6590 said:

In summary...we took a lot of money in when we were in the Premier League...but still made a loss.

V’s made some “interesting” deals which cost money; managers, agents, players...we lost a lot more money.

We went down twice. V’s cut the cloth accordingly. We lost money.

I would not be surprised to see a bigger loss in June 18’s a/cs given League One income levels.

That said...it’s been managed relatively prudently in the last 2 years. Had a new owner bought us at the beginning of 2016/7 season and turned in those numbers on falling t/o I would have been impressed with their acumen.

Of course, the massive difference here is that it is V’s that got us into this mess initially...

Hey Herbie, thanks for going to the effort of explaining everything. Much appreciated.

I am just naturally suspicious of V's motives and want to understand exactly what they are up to and why. Anyway you have helped a lot.

One day maybe we will discuss Rovers without these buggars even getting a mention. We can live in hope.

[Herbie6590]

7 hours ago, PLJPB said:

But they only paid £23 m for the £134 m share capital already in existence when they bought the club. Therefore your figure is £111 m too high.

@PLJPB it’s a great point which I missed, so my bad...flicking from VLL to BRFC, newco to oldco, March y/e to June y/e is the only excuse I can offer for overlooking it...well that & stupidity ?.

Having done a quick “compare & contrast” to VLL, we can definitively say they invested £128.5m in VLL to March 2017 - the BRFC a/cs to June 2017 indicate increased parent borrowing, decreased bank borrowing subsequently, so I would argue that V’s “investment” is therefore of the order of c.£130m.

 

[You are welcome to come on a podcast when next year’s a/cs are out to keep me & PhilipL on our toes. ?]  ??

[Pedro]

13 hours ago, JacknOry said:

On wages, I imagine Dack will be put on far improved terms. Around the 10k mark or more I guess...wonder what he was on the season just gone?

I was once on the next table to a Bury exec. in a restaurant and overheard that some of their players are on 7 & 8k a week.  I think some people underestimate how much poor players can command.

[tomphil]

47 minutes ago, Pedro said:

I was once on the next table to a Bury exec. in a restaurant and overheard that some of their players are on 7 & 8k a week.  I think some people underestimate how much poor players can command.

That's how I came across the wages league table on twitter it was a Bury fan saying look our players aren't on 7 & 8k pwk. He was though struggling with the term 'average' wages and the fact some of them might be whilst others might be on 800 ?

[Pedro]

44 minutes ago, tomphil said:

That's how I came across the wages league table on twitter it was a Bury fan saying look our players aren't on 7 & 8k pwk. He was though struggling with the term 'average' wages and the fact some of them might be whilst others might be on 800 ?

I'm obviously not going to name the guy but it was only this season I heard it and he wasn't saying it to brag - more of a case that it was insane!

 

[Mattyblue]

Out of nowhere Bury started splashing the cash on the likes of Beckford etc.

Backfired big time obviously.

[chaddyrovers]

9 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Out of nowhere Bury started splashing the cash on the likes of Beckford etc.

Backfired big time obviously.

They did sell Vaughan to Sunderland tho. 

Lee Clark must have convince that to spend money in the hope of promotion. I thought looking at their squad they would challenge for playoffs

[thorpefleet]

Wondering how Tony and Venky talks have panned out?? any news??