Rovers v Birmingham-Saturday ,December 15th

[blueboy3333]

1 minute ago, Oldgregg86 said:

Have to agree. Even after raya gave the penalty away we where still winning with ten minutes to go. A team with any organisation, character and tenacity would see that game out.

It's not uncommon for teams to lose 2-0 leads quite quickly, especially ones who have been conceding a lot of goals. If Raya hadn't rushed out of his goal we would have won that game comfortably. That split second decision was the catalyst for the latest collapse. 

If it is a lack of organisation then Mowbray needs to rectify that. If it's a problem with the quality of defenders then that's another issue. I think it has a lot to do with a lack of experience at the back. Apart from Mulgrew they are all very young as defenders and keepers go. 

Caddis scored for Bradford today so maybe we let him go too soon?

 

[Tom]

Just seen the goals for the first time, that’s possibly one of the worst pieces of goalkeeping I’ve ever seen, where is his head at there?

[Oldgregg86]

4 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

It's not uncommon for teams to lose 2-0 leads quite quickly, especially ones who have been conceding a lot of goals. If Raya hadn't rushed out of his goal we would have won that game comfortably. That split second decision was the catalyst for the latest collapse. 

If it is a lack of organisation then Mowbray needs to rectify that. If it's a problem with the quality of defenders then that's another issue. I think it has a lot to do with a lack of experience at the back. Apart from Mulgrew they are all very young as defenders and keepers go. 

Caddis scored for Bradford today so maybe we let him go too soon?

 

He scored last week aswell. Maybe a cheeky ten million bid in January.

I didn't see the game today so can't comment on that but the overall picture is this isn't the first time this season we have thrown away leads. Raya didn't give penalties away in the other games so one would have to assume there is a deeper rooted problem. I still believe 2-1 up at home with ten minutes left we should be able to see that game out. If it was solely an individual error we wouldn't have conceded so many points from winning positions

Edited December 15, 2018 by Oldgregg86

[blueboy3333]

12 minutes ago, arbitro said:

I've just seen the Birmingham penalty on Sky and it looks worse than when I saw it in real time. Raya's kicking was poor today also and he was embarrassingly nearly deceived by a bouncing ball in the first half. His performance should give Mowbray a decision to make for next Saturday.

Raya has got away with a lot of poor performances in the last 18 months. He makes great saves but the number of avoidable goals he gives away is criminal. He's been a lot better this season and not thrown as many in his own net but he needs competition so he can be dropped like every other keeper at every other club.

The lack of competition brought in for Raya is another reason why this summers transfer business was so poor. 

[jim mk2]

A continuing saga. Too many drawn games, points thrown away, inability to see out matches when leading, a lack of ruthlessness to get the job done, because the same defensive frailties are apparent every week and Mowbray doesn't have a clue how to address them. This isn't a great division and a playoff place would surely be attainable with a manager with more nous. The club at present is going nowhere under Mowbray. 

[blueboy3333]

Just now, Oldgregg86 said:

I didn't see the game today so can't comment on that but the overall picture is this isn't the first time this season we have thrown away leads. Raya didn't give penalties away in the other games so one would have to assume there is a deeper rooted problem.

There always seem to be a catalyst for a collapse and it always seems to be a defensive howler either by the keeper or the back 4. That could be just a lack of experience or it could be that the players aren't good enough (yet). Even Mulgrew, who is meant to provide the experience,  defended appallingly for the Bannan goal against Wednesday t'other week. 

We got out of this league the last two times with battle hardened CB's and experienced GK's. We have a backline of relative novices at the moment in comparison. I think mistakes and collapses will continue for that very reason.

[benhben]

This result confirms that before we have any thoughts of pushing for the play offs this team needs some serious improvement. So two games 80 minutes against 10 men and a 2-0 lead have resulted in only 2 points. 

I guess we have to give them credit to have led us to relative safety in the division but many of this squad are simply not good enough to progress any further. 

I think it will take 3 or 4 transfer windows of successful improvement 

[roversfan99]

54 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

No, the conversation wasn't solely about what we could have spent the money on. Some were saying that him coming on somehow changed the game. Did you not see those posts? Because out of everything that happened in the game, to say that is scapegoating to me. Yes he cost 7 million, so there will be scrutiny, but he was definitely not at fault for what happens today, as some suggested. 

I agree, Danny Graham is a top class championship striker. We are lucky to have him. 

Also agree about Rothwell and Palmer. I was expecting Rothwell to replace Conway today. I was disappointed when it was Armstrong. I don't know what Armstrong can do that Rothwell can't, apart from the odd finish I suppose, but I think as an all round player Rothwell is far more suited to that position. 

It did, in that Graham made way for him. Obviously the sub was not the main reason (forced or otherwise) for our collapse but you are naive to suggest that it had no impact on the game. Brereton didnt contribute positively. Graham was our best player pre-substitution.

53 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

sorry but before Raya's mistake we were very confortable and Birmingham were never going to scored. Birmingham are a basic team with simple tactics. Mowbray game plan stopped that until Raya's mistake

Thought Bell was decent today. 

Agreed on Armstrong. didn't run with the ball today. but great finish. 

Far too much blaming Brereton for every time he on the pitch and quite honestly I'm getting fed up and tired of it. Its pathetic. Some fans were pathetic with their comments today. 

Yes Graham and Brereton are very different strikers but after they scored we stop passing it short which would suit Brereton much more. 

Uncharacteristically missing the point. Rayas idiocy was undoubtedly the trigger and the catalyst for 2 dropped points, but it was 2 nil at that time, why the total collapse?

And more importantly, its far from the first time its happened! Every time it does you are closed minded, you investigate what caused it on the day, mistake or whatever, oblivious to the theme that theres on overall problem occurring, we keep throwing away points from favourable positions! It is not the sign of an efficient, fully functioning side. And youve put it down to a fluke goal, a bad ref decision, an individual error, whatever it is, and you might be right on them individual days, but totally naive to the overall issue.

We are 22 games in. In that, we threw 2 points away at Ipswich, we got hammered from a winning position at Bristol City, we threw away 2 points at home to Villa, we threw 2 points away to Forest, we lost from a winning position at Swansea, we threw away 2 points against a 10 man Boro and again we threw away 2 points today. And almost topping all of these off, we were a penalty hitting the crossbar away from throwing a way a 3-0 lead from our best 80 minutes of the season. 16 points that we have thrown away, compared to 31 that we have. Is it reasonable to expect all of them to have been kept? No. But is that a worryingly high amount of points thrown away? Definitely. Is it fitness, is it psychological, is it tactical, is it a lack of quality, probably a bit of everything but it needs addressing. 

Brereton will continue to be a massive talking point due to his price tag, whether you like it or not. When he came on today he was poor, whereas Graham again was superb. On Graham youve backed yourself into a corner constantly writing him off and even last week contesting my claim that hes been easily one of our star performers this season.

People acknowledge that hes yet to start, and we are basing it on sub appearances, but that all adds to the mystery.

[OJRovers]

Nuttall is banging them in for fun in the u23s, and I think he deserves a chance to play when Graham goes off, Brereton has had plenty and shown very little. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

11 minutes ago, OJRovers said:

Nuttall is banging them in for fun in the u23s, and I think he deserves a chance to play when Graham goes off, Brereton has had plenty and shown very little. 

How has he had plenty? He hasn't even started a game 

[Bigdoggsteel]

17 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

It did, in that Graham made way for him. Obviously the sub was not the main reason (forced or otherwise) for our collapse but you are naive to suggest that it had no impact on the game. Brereton didnt contribute positively. Graham was our best player pre-substitution.

Uncharacteristically missing the point. Rayas idiocy was undoubtedly the trigger and the catalyst for 2 dropped points, but it was 2 nil at that time, why the total collapse?

And more importantly, its far from the first time its happened! Every time it does you are closed minded, you investigate what caused it on the day, mistake or whatever, oblivious to the theme that theres on overall problem occurring, we keep throwing away points from favourable positions! It is not the sign of an efficient, fully functioning side. And youve put it down to a fluke goal, a bad ref decision, an individual error, whatever it is, and you might be right on them individual days, but totally naive to the overall issue.

We are 22 games in. In that, we threw 2 points away at Ipswich, we got hammered from a winning position at Bristol City, we threw away 2 points at home to Villa, we threw 2 points away to Forest, we lost from a winning position at Swansea, we threw away 2 points against a 10 man Boro and again we threw away 2 points today. And almost topping all of these off, we were a penalty hitting the crossbar away from throwing a way a 3-0 lead from our best 80 minutes of the season. 16 points that we have thrown away, compared to 31 that we have. Is it reasonable to expect all of them to have been kept? No. But is that a worryingly high amount of points thrown away? Definitely. Is it fitness, is it psychological, is it tactical, is it a lack of quality, probably a bit of everything but it needs addressing. 

Brereton will continue to be a massive talking point due to his price tag, whether you like it or not. When he came on today he was poor, whereas Graham again was superb. On Graham youve backed yourself into a corner constantly writing him off and even last week contesting my claim that hes been easily one of our star performers this season.

People acknowledge that hes yet to start, and we are basing it on sub appearances, but that all adds to the mystery.

I watched the game with my own eyes, don't be so patronising saying I am naive to suggest him coming on had no impact. Him coming on changed nothing, we continued playing the same until raya made his blunder. Graham had clearly tired and had done little of note in the previous 20 minutes. Brereton got more touches in his 20 minutes. Rayas blunder led to the collapse. It's as simple as that. 

[Butty]

16 minutes ago, OJRovers said:

Nuttall is banging them in for fun in the u23s, and I think he deserves a chance to play when Graham goes off, Brereton has had plenty and shown very little. 

Big difference between the u23s and Championship football. Nuttall banged them in last season for the u23s but when he played in the first team he was nowhere near good enough. He’s still not up too Championship standard, we should have loaned him out to a league one or two side for regular senior first team football... We definitely need a striker in, in January. New striker and New left back has to be top of our list, wouldn’t mind a winger either. If only we had say, 7 million to spend on those 3 positions  

[chaddyrovers]

21 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

 

Uncharacteristically missing the point. Rayas idiocy was undoubtedly the trigger and the catalyst for 2 dropped points, but it was 2 nil at that time, why the total collapse?

And more importantly, its far from the first time its happened! Every time it does you are closed minded, you investigate what caused it on the day, mistake or whatever, oblivious to the theme that theres on overall problem occurring, we keep throwing away points from favourable positions! It is not the sign of an efficient, fully functioning side. And youve put it down to a fluke goal, a bad ref decision, an individual error, whatever it is, and you might be right on them individual days, but totally naive to the overall issue.

We are 22 games in. In that, we threw 2 points away at Ipswich, we got hammered from a winning position at Bristol City, we threw away 2 points at home to Villa, we threw 2 points away to Forest, we lost from a winning position at Swansea, we threw away 2 points against a 10 man Boro and again we threw away 2 points today. And almost topping all of these off, we were a penalty hitting the crossbar away from throwing a way a 3-0 lead from our best 80 minutes of the season. 16 points that we have thrown away, compared to 31 that we have. Is it reasonable to expect all of them to have been kept? No. But is that a worryingly high amount of points thrown away? Definitely. Is it fitness, is it psychological, is it tactical, is it a lack of quality, probably a bit of everything but it needs addressing. 

Brereton will continue to be a massive talking point due to his price tag, whether you like it or not. When he came on today he was poor, whereas Graham again was superb. On Graham youve backed yourself into a corner constantly writing him off and even last week contesting my claim that hes been easily one of our star performers this season.

People acknowledge that hes yet to start, and we are basing it on sub appearances, but that all adds to the mystery.

haven't already addressed the 1st point but not surprising you have miss the point. 

Brereton did NOT Cause today collapse and the fee shouldn't be a talking point at all. Wonder if you were one of those 4 people behind me today constantly slagging Brereton off? sat in Blackburn End do we? what mystery? Mowbray has said his plan for Brereton. 

On Graham I haven't back myself into any corner as you suggest. 

[Stuart]

7 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

How has he had plenty? He hasn't even started a game 

That in itself is damning enough. One of our highest ever signings and he can’t get near the starting XI. In the Championship.

Yes, Graham is better and rightly keeping him out but he isn’t even giving the manager a decision to make.

[Stuart]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

haven't already addressed the 1st point but not surprising you have miss the point. 

Brereton did NOT Cause today collapse and the fee shouldn't be a talking point at all. Wonder if you were one of those 4 people behind me today constantly slagging Brereton off? sat in Blackburn End do we? what mystery? Mowbray has said his plan for Brereton. 

On Graham I haven't back myself into any corner as you suggest. 

Of course the fee is, and should, be a talking point.

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, Stuart said:

Of course the fee is, and should, be a talking point.

that's not my opinion at all. 

surprise you haven't mention Rovers fans booing Mahoney or were you one?

 

[47er]

1 hour ago, Uddersfelt Blue said:

Trying not to be too negative as this is basically the same team that came up from League 1 and if Mowbray strengthens in key positions then our season could still turn out OK

Isn't this the problem? All debated here at length but TM went ahead collecting mid-fielders whom he doesn't pick and ignoring the key positions we all identified.

And this is where Brereton comes in. Its not that he's to blame for the result, its people thinking that we could have sorted out those key positions for less than 7M. That's why the focus is often on Brereton.

So, we should be looking at" what did Brereton do when he came on?" Isn't the answer "not much"? Haven't we made a big mistake here? Its no good keep arguing "we can't judge Brereton till he's played a run of full games." He has not shown enough to be given that chance. In any case, the formation TM prefers doesn't allow 2 upfront in the middle which, apparently, is the only place Brereton can play! That position is Graham's till he can no longer walk!

Finally, as many have said, too much faith is being put in the players that took us up. Perhaps that's why TM did not address  glaring issues in the transfer window.

I think we will be at least 5 points off the play-offs by the end of the season and look back at what could have been.

TM has done a great job for us so far but he might not be the man to take us further. That's the sad conclusion I reach.

[47er]

19 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

How has he had plenty? He hasn't even started a game 

Isn't that the whole point? 

[roversfan99]

4 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

haven't already addressed the 1st point but not surprising you have miss the point. 

Brereton did NOT Cause today collapse and the fee shouldn't be a talking point at all. Wonder if you were one of those 4 people behind me today constantly slagging Brereton off? sat in Blackburn End do we? what mystery? Mowbray has said his plan for Brereton. 

On Graham I haven't back myself into any corner as you suggest. 

Do you have yes or no answers to these questions please:

Do you agree that our constant tendency to throw away points from winning positions is a massive concern?

Is our fragile defence something that worries you at all?

Do you not at all go back on your opinion that signing competition for Nyambe is necessary?

Do you agree than Graham is much more effective in our team than Brereton?

I am not in my mid 30s so no that wasnt me and further still, I am not a member of the "I hate Ben Brereton society."

The fee will of course cause an added sense of intrigue, pressure and added discussion, like it or loathe it. Just as Mowbray is commended further for his signing of Dack when considering his small fee.

People will obviously judge if we have a 7 million striker yet to start, yet to score, as a team with weaknesses in a number of positions.

[DE.]

25 minutes ago, 47er said:

I think we will be at least 5 points off the play-offs by the end of the season and look back at what could have been.

I'd say 5 points is being pretty optimistic to be honest. I see us being much further behind, maybe as much as 10-15 points. Teams around us will gain momentum as we stumble our way through the season without ever picking up a proper run of form, whilst the better clubs will be able to hold onto winning positions in a way we simply can't. Barring a very good January transfer window, which I am not expecting, I foresee a decent but uninspiring mid-table finish with a lot of uncertainty as to whether we can progress as we go into the summer.

[chaddyrovers]

23 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Do you have yes or no answers to these questions please:

Do you agree that our constant tendency to throw away points from winning positions is a massive concern?

Is our fragile defence something that worries you at all?

Do you not at all go back on your opinion that signing competition for Nyambe is necessary?

Do you agree than Graham is much more effective in our team than Brereton?

I am not in my mid 30s so no that wasnt me and further still, I am not a member of the "I hate Ben Brereton society."

The fee will of course cause an added sense of intrigue, pressure and added discussion, like it or loathe it. Just as Mowbray is commended further for his signing of Dack when considering his small fee.

People will obviously judge if we have a 7 million striker yet to start, yet to score, as a team with weaknesses in a number of positions.

The questions you asked are much more than just a simple yes or no answers. 

I said one of the 4 was mid 30's. not all 4

[Mercer]

38 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

 

Brereton did NOT Cause today collapse and the fee shouldn't be a talking point at all. Wonder if you were one of those 4 people behind me today constantly slagging Brereton off? sat in Blackburn End do we? what mystery? Mowbray has said his plan for Brereton. 

 

The fee is key.

We have committed £7million+ on a player who, seemingly, is not good enough to start in our mid Championship team.

I have spoken to three people who attended the match and their opinion, similar to some of the opinions posted on here after today's match, is that he looked lost and out of his depth and contributed very, very little.  This is mystifying when there are so many areas in our team in need of strengthening - how can we trust Mowbray with further funds? 

[Parsonblue]

Two individual errors - Raya and Bell - cost us today.  Raya had a major lapse for the penalty but goalkeepers do that at times.  Bell, who I thought was dreadful, lost possession for the second when he could easily have simply pumped it forward.  The fact that Bell made Mahoney look half decent just about sums up his performance.   I thought Reed, Evans and Graham were our best performers - which they have been on a regular basis.

Whilst Brereton was in no way to blame for the defeat it was noticeable that when Graham came off we struggled to maintain possession and missed Graham closing down defenders.  Having watched every minute of Brereton so far this season I must admit that I'm struggling to see how he's going to win a regular spot in the starting line-up, particularly if we bring in another striker in January.  He doesn't appear overly physical and he certainly isn't quick.  I hope the lad proves me wrong but I've seen any number of players brought in over the years who have failed to make an impact and at the moment Brereton is beginning to fall into that category.

[AdamRochina]

how come dack didnt get a penalty btw? anyone said anything about that

[Mercer]

Just now, Parsonblue said:

Two individual errors - Raya and Bell - cost us today.  Raya had a major lapse for the penalty but goalkeepers do that at times.  Bell, who I thought was dreadful, lost possession for the second when he could easily have simply pumped it forward.  The fact that Bell made Mahoney look half decent just about sums up his performance.   I thought Reed, Evans and Graham were our best performers - which they have been on a regular basis.

Whilst Brereton was in no way to blame for the defeat it was noticeable that when Graham came off we struggled to maintain possession and missed Graham closing down defenders.  Having watched every minute of Brereton so far this season I must admit that I'm struggling to see how he's going to win a regular spot in the starting line-up, particularly if we bring in another striker in January.  He doesn't appear overly physical and he certainly isn't quick.  I hope the lad proves me wrong but I've seen any number of players brought in over the years who have failed to make an impact and at the moment Brereton is beginning to fall into that category.

Two points.

Firstly re Bell - been totally unconvinced when I've seen him.  Buck stops with Mowbray - he picks the team.

Secondly re Brereton - when even a die hard like you Parsonblue expresses such concerns, the alarm bells must be well and truly screaming.