What Needs To Change and Where Do We Go From Here?

[JHRover]

We can talk about personnel or panic/fear in the team. Ultimately it is the manager's responsibility. It has been a trait of Mowbray's tenure that we cannot kill teams off and struggle to defend properly for 90 minutes. I don't think Mowbray knows how to sort it. I doubt bringing in a replacement CB will suddenly fix our problems. It is a team effort and there is clearly something wrong with the team when defending a lead or under pressure. Anyone who watched us last season will be able to recall multiple games we ended up winning where we struggled to see the game out and at times only did so due to poor quality opposition. No such luck at this level I'm afraid.

[Don Said]

It's important to remember we're an inexperienced side with probably 2 players good enough to make a real impact in a promotion quality first 11 (Reed, Dack) so on paper our league position is okay. We're half a season out of league one, and we can probably class ourselves as a mid to lower table championship side not overly worried about relegation which is decent progress.

However we have some glaring issues that need improving if Blackburn Rovers are to be anything more than a mid to lower table championship side. Fully agree with other posters - these clearly aren't short term problems & aren’t being picked out from knee jerk reactions. Agree that we absolutely need to form some sort of playing identity to ensure that we have an efficient team approach to every game in which every man knows his role and responsibility.

I’m concerned about Rovers defensively more than anything. We're very soft & despite all having some qualities, I don't think any of our back 4 are good enough for this level (Mulgrew is up for debate, Nyambe and Lenihan might be good enough in the future/is Lenihan even a defender?). Key point, we can’t defend to the required levels in this league. We are inept at preventing opposition teams attacking us down the wing to get in to good positions (Nyambe and Bell/Williams are dreadful fullbacks one on one, not helped by the lack of natural wingers who can help them out by instinct) & we're utterly awful at defending the resulting crosses in to the box. We get the basics of defending wrong week in week out which obviously isn’t good enough.

I personally think the biggest contributor to this is the inherited squad coupled with recruitment. Simply put if we had the same back 4 as a Middlesbrough type team in the league, man for man, I think we'd be a good 10 points better off, at least. Having a back 4 of that quality would probably be unrealistic this soon back in to our long-term plan but we spent 7 million pound sterling on a 19 year old striker this summer who HASN'T STARTED A SINGLE GAME, the exact opposite of the type of striker that we needed, that striker being probably 5th on the 'Rovers need' list behind defensive players!! With 7 million real quid we could've and should’ve drastically improved that backline to a more than competent level – at least two solid championship fullbacks and the mystery lesser-spotted big nasty centre half. So unless we spend 7 million or more (not a chance) on defenders next month I'll be livid with Mowbray's 18/19 recruitment, at a time when it should've been the best it's been in years given the money we had/have available. 

Game management is an obvious issue, and we do need to put a lot of work in to improving it with the current crop, but along with improvement in other areas on the pitch, I think this is best remedied by experienced/better players that we don’t yet have.

I think Mowbray’s done a good enough job as Rovers manager and I think we’re still on the right path as a club. We need time to build a better squad and I think he deserves the next two windows – although these windows need to be the best yet under him. Defenders that can defend & Wingers that can wing please Tony.

[Ewood Ace]

Just now, Biz said:

I don’t think it’s fitness, but definitley on bottle; Experience, nasty streak, calmness, mental toughness, I agree with.

I think that’s down to the youth of our first team more than tactics/approach. A nasty and experienced, preferably massive and fast (don’t ask much...) centre half in January would I would “go next”

If you are conceding half your goals in the last 20 minutes then fitness is clearly an issue. For the last 20 minutes against Norwich they were absolutely knackered, only one team was ever scoring in those last 20. Yesterday for the winner Bell just tiredly dangles a leg rather that chucking himself at the ball to block it and then Roofe gets a good leap to head the ball whereas a tired looking Lenihan barely gets of the ground.  Middlesbrough had 10 men for 75 minutes yet come full time they were the side that looked fresher and were pushing forward to win it.

[blueboy3333]

2 hours ago, DE. said:

The same problems we're discussing now were evident from day one when we let a lead slip in the final few minutes against Ipswich - the worst team in the division by some distance.

And I think that's the problem. Mowbray is still trotting out the 'lessons to be learned' schtick even though they seemingly never are. It's either a failure of coaching or a failure of personnel on the pitch. Only Mowbray can sort that out. A potentially good season is being ruined, ironically, by the failure to learn lessons. I've seen every team in this league now and only Sheff Utd properly outclassed us (and perhaps Derby). Every other team has been beatable but we just gift them points because we can't defend the most basic of crosses and we can't keep the ball for a few minutes to see out a game. It's amateur hour nearly every week. 

https://www.rovers.co.uk/news/2018/december/lessons-to-be-learned---mowbray/

[JBiz]

17 minutes ago, DE. said:

The team isn't that young. Mulgrew, Williams, Smallwood, Evans, Graham - all regulars with a ton of experience. Where's the leadership from these lads when the pressure is on? Dack is 25 in four days so he's hardly a youngster either. 

As I said yesterday, too many of the wrong personality types in the team right now. Not enough leaders. The panic and fear across the team towards the end of matches is embarrassing to watch. If you think the players will just grow out of that I'm afraid you're sadly mistaken. Leadership is an inherent trait and we don't have anywhere close to enough of it in the team at present. 

 

Raya, Lenihan, Bell, Rothwell, and Reed all on the pitch for those two minutes - I counted an individual error from 2 of those 5 in the last 90 seconds of the game. 

Thats not leadership, it’s decision making. Experience, confidence - as EA said “Bottle”..!

We agree on some parts about needing more guile in the middle - and definitley on the panic but I just don’t think the immediate solution is to change manager.

5 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

I've seen every team in this league now and only Sheff Utd properly outclassed us (and perhaps Derby). 

https://www.rovers.co.uk/news/2018/december/lessons-to-be-learned---mowbray/

Same here, and that’s not because we have the best players either - that’s how close the players/manager are from achieving something. Yesterday was the epitome of that.

I’d feel a lot differently about this season if we had similar points but never even looked capable of more!

Edited December 27, 2018 by Biz

[Stuart]

42 minutes ago, Biz said:

This thread asked “where do we go from here” directly after the Leeds game, which suggests it’s a question in reaction to a game.

If you or the thread is asking me “are we doing well enough this season so far”, the answer is overall is yes but could be better. As I said, expectations need reigning in.

@Stuart

See above.

Did you even read the OP? It’s the first line FFS.

[Ewood Ace]

Just now, Don Said said:

It's important to remember we're an inexperienced side with probably 2 players good enough to make a real impact in a promotion quality first 11 (Reed, Dack) so on paper our league position is okay. We're half a season out of league one, and we can probably class ourselves as a mid to lower table championship side not overly worried about relegation which is decent progress.

I don't think we are inexperienced at all there is plenty of experience in this squad. Graham has played over 100 Premiership games and even more than that at this level. Mulgrew is an international footballer who has played in Celtic title winning teams and played over 30 times in the Champions League. Corry Evans is another international footballer who has played over 200 Championship games. Elliott Bennett has plenty of Championship and Premiership experience, Conway has played over 200 games at this level. Jack Rodwell is an England international with who has won the Premiership. Lenihan and Williams are both now international footballers who have played a fair bit of football at this level. Smallwood has played nearly 200 games at this level.  Not what I would call an inexperienced side.

[blueboy3333]

1 minute ago, Biz said:

Same here, and that’s not because we have the best players either that’s - how close the players/manager are from achieving something. Yesterday was the epitome of that.

We have a Championship team with Championship players in a competitive Championship division. We don't have the best players, no, but we don't have the worst either.  There isn't much difference between 6th and 20th. We are closer to 20th because we make the same mistakes week after week. Yesterday was the epitome of the managers inability to make us more resilient. 

[Stuart]

38 minutes ago, CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber said:

You're absolving V8nkys from any culpability for the situation we find ourselves in with this point which is f8cking shocking. 

Am I supposed to be grateful they are willing to spend £7m on one player and direct all my anger at Mowbray?

I’m absolving Venkys? Far from it. They are the root cause of everything that is wrong with Rovers.

But...

There is no point in trying to do anything at this moment in time as far as Venkys are concerned because when it mattered not enough of our fans were prepared to do anything about it.

All those people who protested will be the first ones outside Ewood shaking buckets when the time comes. Without PL cash (or new owners - which will require PL football for the Lunes to even sell) that will be the inevitable outcome.

I hate Venkys with a passion but right now we need a manager who can get us promoted. The current reality is a facade.

The point that you’ve chosen to highlight out of context is that we have spent £10m on two players, IMHO a better manager could have done a lot more with it.

[arbitro]

38 minutes ago, Biz said:

Does it occur to you that to dropping so many points from winning positions, also requires the tactics/performance to get into a winning position?

So he's got part of it right. The criticism of him and the players is the other part which is costing us dearly.

[Stuart]

45 minutes ago, Biz said:

 

Edited out a lot of straw men and insults.

But for the record, I said “coaching staff”, you said manager.

[Don Said]

10 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

I don't think we are inexperienced at all there is plenty of experience in this squad. Graham has played over 100 Premiership games and even more than that at this level. Mulgrew is an international footballer who has played in Celtic title winning teams and played over 30 times in the Champions League. Corry Evans is another international footballer who has played over 200 Championship games. Elliott Bennett has plenty of Championship and Premiership experience, Conway has played over 200 games at this level. Jack Rodwell is an England international with who has won the Premiership. Lenihan and Williams are both now international footballers who have played a fair bit of football at this level. Smallwood has played nearly 200 games at this level.  Not what I would call an inexperienced side.

Good point well made, but nonetheless we have a lot young players in our Raya's/Nyambe's/Arma's and players such as Bell that are starters in key areas that haven't played at this level before. Not sure half of the players you list there add much in terms of leadership either although they do have games under their belt. Probably better explained as we've made progress in our first season back at this level in which we've made improvements despite not really going through the model last window of signing players who have been there/done that in this league (which I think we should've done given the budget of 10m ish)

 

 

[Stuart]

3 minutes ago, arbitro said:

So he's got part of it right. The criticism of him and the players is the other part which is costing us dearly.

I think he was joking/being sarcastic.

Nobody in their right mind thinks the manager deserves credit for losing from winning positions.

Do they?  

[Tom Stinny]

Go get Robert huth in at centre back. Proper defender who defends first and takes no chances. 

[AAK]

42 minutes ago, DE. said:

The team isn't that young. Mulgrew, Williams, Smallwood, Evans, Graham - all regulars with a ton of experience. Where's the leadership from these lads when the pressure is on? Dack is 25 in four days so he's hardly a youngster either. 

As I said yesterday, too many of the wrong personality types in the team right now. Not enough leaders. The panic and fear across the team towards the end of matches is embarrassing to watch. If you think the players will just grow out of that I'm afraid you're sadly mistaken. Leadership is an inherent trait and we don't have anywhere close to enough of it in the team at present. 

 

I am not his biggest fan when he plays on the wing, better at right back, Elliott Bennett - it is clear his leadership has been missed, 100%, since he's been out, the following has happened;

Won 1 Drawn 2 Lost 3, Goals Conceded 12 (average of 2 per game)

Overall without Bennett this season

Played 7, Won 1 Drawn 3, Lost 3

In addition to that the capitulations at Swansea losing 3-1 and Preston losing 4-1 and Bristol losing 4-1 were when Bennett played right mid, rather than right back. Included in the 7 games without him was the Wigan 3-1 defeat.

All that speaks absolute volumes for me - 7 games he hasn't played in this season we've won 1 and conceded for fun. The games of which he has played in, but hasn't played at the back we've been beat 4-1, 4-1, 3-1.

 

Edited December 27, 2018 by AAK

[blueboy3333]

31 minutes ago, Don Said said:

It's important to remember we're an inexperienced side with probably 2 players good enough to make a real impact in a promotion quality first 11 (Reed, Dack) so on paper our league position is okay. We're half a season out of league one, and we can probably class ourselves as a mid to lower table championship side not overly worried about relegation which is decent progress.

However we have some glaring issues that need improving if Blackburn Rovers are to be anything more than a mid to lower table championship side. Fully agree with other posters - these clearly aren't short term problems & aren’t being picked out from knee jerk reactions. Agree that we absolutely need to form some sort of playing identity to ensure that we have an efficient team approach to every game in which every man knows his role and responsibility.

I’m concerned about Rovers defensively more than anything. We're very soft & despite all having some qualities, I don't think any of our back 4 are good enough for this level (Mulgrew is up for debate, Nyambe and Lenihan might be good enough in the future/is Lenihan even a defender?). Key point, we can’t defend to the required levels in this league. We are inept at preventing opposition teams attacking us down the wing to get in to good positions (Nyambe and Bell/Williams are dreadful fullbacks one on one, not helped by the lack of natural wingers who can help them out by instinct) & we're utterly awful at defending the resulting crosses in to the box. We get the basics of defending wrong week in week out which obviously isn’t good enough.

I personally think the biggest contributor to this is the inherited squad coupled with recruitment. Simply put if we had the same back 4 as a Middlesbrough type team in the league, man for man, I think we'd be a good 10 points better off, at least. Having a back 4 of that quality would probably be unrealistic this soon back in to our long-term plan but we spent 7 million pound sterling on a 19 year old striker this summer who HASN'T STARTED A SINGLE GAME, the exact opposite of the type of striker that we needed, that striker being probably 5th on the 'Rovers need' list behind defensive players!! With 7 million real quid we could've and should’ve drastically improved that backline to a more than competent level – at least two solid championship fullbacks and the mystery lesser-spotted big nasty centre half. So unless we spend 7 million or more (not a chance) on defenders next month I'll be livid with Mowbray's 18/19 recruitment, at a time when it should've been the best it's been in years given the money we had/have available. 

Game management is an obvious issue, and we do need to put a lot of work in to improving it with the current crop, but along with improvement in other areas on the pitch, I think this is best remedied by experienced/better players that we don’t yet have.

I think Mowbray’s done a good enough job as Rovers manager and I think we’re still on the right path as a club. We need time to build a better squad and I think he deserves the next two windows – although these windows need to be the best yet under him. Defenders that can defend & Wingers that can wing please Tony.

Good post. I'm amazed Biz agrees with it though as he's been arguing against nearly every part of it for the last few weeks Weird.

Agree on the defenders. I said a few weeks ago every one of them, including the keeper, has a mistake in them, mainly due to lack of experience. Disagree on Nyambe being a dreadful full back one-on-one, he's actually very good. His problem is that his starting point is so narrow that the winger doesn't have to beat him, they just have to put the cross in. Whether he's been told to stay narrow is another matter. Bell is an awful defender full stop. I prefer Williams but he's now got a fatal mistake in him every game.

It also comes down to tactics. Mowbray wants attacking full backs like Bell and Nyambe because he doesn't have wingers. The 'wide forwards' come inside and open the space for our full backs to get down the wing. Problem is Bell and Nyambe can both travel with the ball but their delivery is poor. Ultimately the tactic doesn't work. As they are both attacking full backs their defensive work/positioning leaves something to be desired so we lose out defensively too. Pulis, who you mentioned, does have better defenders but they are also better coached. 

Anyone with half a brain can see the BB money was a massive aberration by someone at the club. That £7m could have got at least one good defender. 

Edited December 27, 2018 by blueboy3333

[CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber]

8 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

Good post. I'm amazed Biz agrees with it though as he's been arguing against nearly every part of it for the last few weeks Weird.

Agree on the defenders. I said a few weeks ago every one of them, including the keeper, has a mistake in them, mainly due to lack of experience. Disagree on Nyambe being a dreadful full back one-on-one, he's actually very good. His problem is that his starting point is so narrow that the winger doesn't have to beat him, they just have to put the cross him. Whether he's been told to stay narrow is another matter. Bell is an awful defender full stop. I prefer Williams but he's now got a fatal mistake in him every game.

It also comes down to tactics. Mowbray wants attacking full backs like Bell and Nyambe because he doesn't have wingers. The 'wide forwards' come inside and open the space for our full backs to get down the wing. Problem is Bell and Nyambe can both travel with the ball but their delivery is poor. Ultimately the tactic doesn't work. As they are both attacking full backs their defensive work/positioning leaves something to be desired so we lose out defensively too. Pulis, who you mentioned, does have better defenders but they are also better coached. 

Anyone with half a brain can see the BB money was a massive aberration by someone at the club. That £7m could have got at least one good defender. 

Nailed it. 

[Ewood Ace]

4 minutes ago, AAK said:

I am not his biggest fan when he plays on the wing, better at right back, but should play central midfield, Elliott Bennett - it is clear his leadership has been missed, 100%, since he's been out, the following has happened;



Won 1 Drawn 2 Lost 3, Goals Conceded 12 (average of 2 per game)

Overall without Bennett this season



Played 7, Won 1 Drawn 3, Lost 3

In addition to that the capitulations at Swansea losing 3-1 and Preston losing 4-1 and Bristol losing 4-1 were when Bennett played right mid, rather than right back. Included in the 7 games without him was the Wigan 3-1 defeat.



All that speaks absolute volumes for me - 7 games he hasn't played in this season we've won 1 and conceded for fun. The games of which he has played in, but hasn't played at the back we've been beat 4-1, 4-1, 3-1, 3-1.



 

Bennett played right back at Swansea and was an aberration he was at fault for the 2nd and 3rd goal. He played right back against Sheffield United both goals cam from their left side. At Bristol it was 2-1 when Nyambe went off and Bennett went to right back and he was completely missing for their 3rd goal. Bennett can play in plenty of positions effectively but full back is certainly not one of them he dives into often and his positional play is awful.

[blueboy3333]

3 minutes ago, CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber said:

Nailed it. 

Thanks. Maybe we'd be better with full backs who can defend and getting wingers/wide men who can cross and create. Maybe that's not complicated enough for Mogga. 

[DE.]

7 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

Thanks. Maybe we'd be better with full backs who can defend and getting wingers/wide men who can cross and create. Maybe that's not complicated enough for Mogga. 

The other issue we have is that our play is so slow and ponderous that we don't open up the gaps necessary for an inside forward to exploit. All that happens is our inside forward ends up just ahead of the full/wing backs, and just receives a simple pass with nowhere to go. We then either lose the ball or it ends up back at the feet of Smallwood or Evans in the middle. Playing with inside forwards requires a dynamic approach and I don't see anything like that in the way we play.

[Stuart]

48 minutes ago, Don Said said:

It's important to remember we're an inexperienced side with probably 2 players good enough to make a real impact in a promotion quality first 11 (Reed, Dack) so on paper our league position is okay. We're half a season out of league one, and we can probably class ourselves as a mid to lower table championship side not overly worried about relegation which is decent progress.

However we have some glaring issues that need improving if Blackburn Rovers are to be anything more than a mid to lower table championship side. Fully agree with other posters - these clearly aren't short term problems & aren’t being picked out from knee jerk reactions. Agree that we absolutely need to form some sort of playing identity to ensure that we have an efficient team approach to every game in which every man knows his role and responsibility.

I’m concerned about Rovers defensively more than anything. We're very soft & despite all having some qualities, I don't think any of our back 4 are good enough for this level (Mulgrew is up for debate, Nyambe and Lenihan might be good enough in the future/is Lenihan even a defender?). Key point, we can’t defend to the required levels in this league. We are inept at preventing opposition teams attacking us down the wing to get in to good positions (Nyambe and Bell/Williams are dreadful fullbacks one on one, not helped by the lack of natural wingers who can help them out by instinct) & we're utterly awful at defending the resulting crosses in to the box. We get the basics of defending wrong week in week out which obviously isn’t good enough.

I personally think the biggest contributor to this is the inherited squad coupled with recruitment. Simply put if we had the same back 4 as a Middlesbrough type team in the league, man for man, I think we'd be a good 10 points better off, at least. Having a back 4 of that quality would probably be unrealistic this soon back in to our long-term plan but we spent 7 million pound sterling on a 19 year old striker this summer who HASN'T STARTED A SINGLE GAME, the exact opposite of the type of striker that we needed, that striker being probably 5th on the 'Rovers need' list behind defensive players!! With 7 million real quid we could've and should’ve drastically improved that backline to a more than competent level – at least two solid championship fullbacks and the mystery lesser-spotted big nasty centre half. So unless we spend 7 million or more (not a chance) on defenders next month I'll be livid with Mowbray's 18/19 recruitment, at a time when it should've been the best it's been in years given the money we had/have available. 

Game management is an obvious issue, and we do need to put a lot of work in to improving it with the current crop, but along with improvement in other areas on the pitch, I think this is best remedied by experienced/better players that we don’t yet have.

I think Mowbray’s done a good enough job as Rovers manager and I think we’re still on the right path as a club. We need time to build a better squad and I think he deserves the next two windows – although these windows need to be the best yet under him. Defenders that can defend & Wingers that can wing please Tony.

Great post. 

Regarding the paragraph in bold, I’m not sure if you mean a squad inherited from League One or inherited from Coyle but having had all Summer and money I think Mowbray hasn’t addressed this shortfall or doesn’t think we need to. If it’s the former then he needs to show signs of addressing this in January, even if only the loan market (I.e. a proper centre back - which we can all see is a must), if it’s the latter and Mowbray wants to keep the faith with Smallwood, Lenihan and to an extent Evans then I’m concerned.

His approach so far has been to show loyalty to his League One promoted side and to make every other player earn a few minutes here and there. This is misguided in my view and will see us regress. If Reed goes back then only Bell and Armstrong represent Mowbray’s improvement to our first team - and the jury is out on both.

If there is no money and (for argument’s sake) he was blindsided by the Brereton signing then, one, he is being undermined and, two, he is happy to work under those circumstances.

If he is going to get that second window, then he needs to demonstrate in the first one (January) that he knows what the problems are. At the moment, Mulgrew-Lenihan and Smallwood-Evans as our hard centre are looking like his preferred choice rather than something he is having to make do with.

We shall see.

[AAK]

15 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

Bennett played right back at Swansea and was an aberration he was at fault for the 2nd and 3rd goal. He played right back against Sheffield United both goals cam from their left side. At Bristol it was 2-1 when Nyambe went off and Bennett went to right back and he was completely missing for their 3rd goal. Bennett can play in plenty of positions effectively but full back is certainly not one of them he dives into often and his positional play is awful.

Sorry yes he did at Swansea. Sheff Utd, can't remember that, I was down in the concourse all game as we were so poor. Bristol yes Nyambe did go off, although from my point of view, the tide was set for a big defeat. For me he's half decent at right back, and his leadership assists greatly. Nyambe for me just isn't a good player, let's the opposition cross at will and when attacking runs with head down and then turns back, and does absolutely nothing with the ball. Bennett in a central midfield role would be nice to see, but it won't happen.

We've no wingers, and neither of our full backs can cross a ball, therefore we are very one dimensional, and go through the middle all the time and it becomes all so predictable.

Edited December 27, 2018 by AAK

[Norbert Rassragr]

2 hours ago, roverandout said:

Change of manager. Worked out for southampton when they sacked adkins and appointed poccetino. Same when palace went for broke and gave hodgson the job. Change can take you onto the next level. Mowbary is quickly becoming stale, the same way in which bowyer started to go backwards and we held onto him for too long.

Who though? We'd all love a championship Klopp or Pep type, but I'm not sure I can think of a dynamic manager like that. 

[blueboy3333]

2 minutes ago, Norbert Rassragr said:

Who though? We'd all love a championship Klopp or Pep type, but I'm not sure I can think of a dynamic manager like that. 

Farke or the bloke who manages Huddersfield. They were found somewhere and came to the Championship. Can you imagine our owners finding anyone like that?

[arbitro]

38 minutes ago, Stuart said:

I think he was joking/being sarcastic.

Nobody in their right mind thinks the manager deserves credit for losing from winning positions.

Do they?  

I wasn't sure because there was some veiled criticism of Mowbray if it was a serious post and the 11th Commandment is Thou shall not criticise Mowbray. ?