Summer Transfer Window 2019

[DE.]

Just now, Dreams of 1995 said:

In my eyes this is part of a bigger problem. I genuinely don't believe that TM is setting out to go back on his word, I just don't think there's the scope to spend larger sums of money on players who defend. It goes against our transfer history since the dreaded takeover. Money is available for young, attacking players and the defence is put together as cheaply and quietly as it can be.

If that is true then the fans have a right to know, don't they? Honest Tony will surely let us know that the budget is earmarked for attackers only. Or he'll lie to cover for the owners and be no different to any of the other yes-men who came before him. Assuming this is true, obviously.

[JHRover]

Just now, Dreams of 1995 said:

What you are forgetting DE is that we haven't had a defence since Big Sam. The post by @Miller11 shown that the level of investment in our defence under Venkys has been appalling from every single manager, not just Mowbray.

In my eyes this is part of a bigger problem. I genuinely don't believe that TM is setting out to go back on his word, I just don't think there's the scope to spend larger sums of money on players who defend. It goes against our transfer history since the dreaded takeover. Money is available for young, attacking players and the defence is put together as cheaply and quietly as it can be.

It was our undoing during Bowyers years and our undoing during the relegation season too. Our defence has been shit since the Samba days.

All probably true. But if so Mowbray shouldn't be making bold promises about things he cant deliver and should be honest about the situation. He's said even recently that the Raya money is still there and that he's in control of recruitment.

[DE.]

Just now, davulsukur said:

It's normally the manager that makes the difference in these situations.

Allardyce being the classic example of taking any old players and getting them organised and set up correctly to become difficult to beat.

Mowbray has never been about the defence in his entire managerial career. He isn't going to start now. I think it was yourself that posted a quote where he had 6 strikers on the pitch at the same time.

He seems to believe we can be a possession based team and therefore under less pressure defensively, looking at the Charlton game, we had 62% possession (according to the BBC) which isn't too shabby but we still lost 2-1 because our defenders just aren't good enough when it matters.

 

It was @Don Said who provided the stat, although I did quote it. Obviously Venky's were preventing him from signing defenders back then too. 

Edited August 7, 2019 by DE.

[JBiz]

Just now, DE. said:

If that is true then the fans have a right to know, don't they? Honest Tony will surely let us know that the budget is earmarked for attackers only. Or he'll lie to cover for the owners and be no different to any of the other yes-men who came before him. Assuming this is true, obviously.

It doesn’t have to be ear marked for attackers, for us not to spend money on defenders.

To me this is a huge side effect of decline, change, upheaval and no squad building continuity.

There is also the weighting between attacking / defensive graduates. We’ve had, have far more defenders than attackers, No8s, 9s, 10s and 11s!

Complex business is developing a squad to challenge without simply spending lots of money and buying it ready made.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Harry The Bass

[Pedro]

40 minutes ago, islander200 said:

Nixon tweeting that our 6 fingered neighbours have made an approach for Scott Dann

How times have changed. This is how it feels to be Burnley. This is how it feels to be small. This is how it feels when your club's doing nothing at all.

[JBiz]

Just now, Pedro said:

How times have changed. This is how it feels to be Burnley. This is how it feels to be small. This is how it feels when your club's doing nothing at all.

I actually think Drinkwater and Dann, on top of what they’ve kept should stay up under Dyche. Seen their fans moaning, even one about Derby having a better wage bill - but for all Dyche’s domestic and players he knows bias, I’d bet 2 chateau neuf du pape’s on him achieving their targets again!

[BankEnd Rover]

Not sure if its been mentioned but Carl Jenkinson to Forest. Would've been a decent signing.

[stinny1]

three and a half million in the pot that should be enough  too bring in a good center half  . And money left over for a left back surely  come on Tony lad get cracking and lets have a good season

[joey_big_nose]

45 minutes ago, Angry_Pirate said:

Mark Hughes will sort it out in January ?

He won't be coming back, too much pride.

[joey_big_nose]

If wed spent 5m on defenders and persevered with Graham, Brereton and Armstrong up top we would be in a much better position.

[Blueandwhitemike]

3 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

What you are forgetting DE is that we haven't had a defence since Big Sam. The post by @Miller11 shown that the level of investment in our defence under Venkys has been appalling from every single manager, not just Mowbray.

In my eyes this is part of a bigger problem. I genuinely don't believe that TM is setting out to go back on his word, I just don't think there's the scope to spend larger sums of money on players who defend. It goes against our transfer history since the dreaded takeover. Money is available for young, attacking players and the defence is put together as cheaply and quietly as it can be.

It was our undoing during Bowyers years and our undoing during the relegation season too. Our defence has been shit since the Samba days.

5

I would say that Hanley and Duffy while not perfect were pretty decent and the reason we never really challenged for promotion during the Bowyer years were a week midfield with Williamson and Lowe being pretty rubbish and lack of tactics.

[DE.]

Just now, Blueandwhitemike said:

I would say that Hanley and Duffy while not perfect were pretty decent and the reason we never really challenged for promotion during the Bowyer years were a week midfield with Williamson and Lowe being pretty rubbish and lack of tactics.

Yes, much like the current manager Bowyer struggled with changing tactics mid-match, making effective substitutions or strengthening areas of the team that desperately needed it (in his case midfield rather than defence). Plenty of attacking talent, not enough defensive steel. A story we've seen play out once before, and we know exactly how it ends. 

[RovingRover]

Barnsley left-back/left-wing back Tom Pearce moving from Leeds United to Barnsley. Miles ahead of Amari'i Bell in quality and development. Rovers nowhere near it regardless of blatantly needed left sided defensive reinforcements.

They are paying in the region of £300,000 for him. Absolute bargain!

Meanwhile Rovers are taking the very casual attitude of "well we don't need anyone, but if something good comes along we might go for it". This a week after 72 hours of solid enquiries and bids for a range of defenders in Germany and one in Holland.

The club is not making itself look good at the moment.

Edited August 7, 2019 by RovingRover

[Hi Mack]

While we are at it, who does everyone see as Realistic CB targets? Given the fact we've got just over 24 hours.

The European scouting missions seem to have been a bit of a joke.

Hanley? 

 

[RovingRover]

Just now, Hi Mack said:

While we are at it, who does everyone see as Realistic CB targets? Given the fact we've got just over 24 hours.

The European scouting missions seem to have been a bit of a joke.

Hanley? 

 

My suspicion is nobody.

I reckon we will end up doing what we did last season. Sign some League One/League Two player on loan with a view to sign them in January. In January that player will return to his club.

I maintain this club needs at least 3 defensive signings to stand a chance of having a successful season this time round.

[BG1492]

Just now, RovingRover said:

Barnsley left-back/left-wing back Tom Pearce moving from Leeds United to Barnsley. Miles ahead of Amari'i Bell in quality and development. Rovers nowhere near it regardless of blatantly needed left sided defensive reinforcements.

They are paying in the region of £300,000 for him. Absolute bargain!

Meanwhile Rovers are taking the very casual attitude of "well we don't need anyone, but if something good comes along we might go for it". This a week after 72 hours of solid enquiries and bids for a range of defenders in Germany and one in Holland.

The club is not making itself look good at the moment.

Pearce is as bad as Bell. 300k or not it’s pointless replacing a bang average left back with another, when the rest of the back 4 also need improving IMO.

[Miller11]

5 minutes ago, Harry The Bass said:

It doesn’t have to be ear marked for attackers, for us not to spend money on defenders.

To me this is a huge side effect of decline, change, upheaval and no squad building continuity.

There is also the weighting between attacking / defensive graduates. We’ve had, have far more defenders than attackers, No8s, 9s, 10s and 11s!

Complex business is developing a squad to challenge without simply spending lots of money and buying it ready made.

A lot of that is exactly what Mowbray and Waggott will come out with to placate any dissenters amongst the supporters. Doesn’t was with me though.

We have spent more on Dominic Samuel than any defender in 7 years. We have regularly played midfielders in the back four since they potted Allardyce. Money is readily available to spend on “young attacking players”... best part of £15 million quid either unable to nudge ahead of Danny Graham or accommodated out wide. We’ve had Lenihan (who Mowbray not so long ago said fancied himself as a midfielder) and Nyambe (still younger than Whatton and chucked in when he was younger than Brereton) come through the youth ranks... I suppose there was Henley as well, but his career has fallen off a cliff. Magloire looked miles off last season and was only called upon due to utter desperation... we are hardly spoiled for choice with these young defensive graduates, and we flogged the best one who is now playing in the premier league for a pittance.

I genuinely believed Mowbray’s “defenders are coming speech”. He clearly meant it. I can’t believe the backtracking is merely a change of heart.

Is it really so difficult to believe Venky’s are meddling in transfer business and aren’t giving Mowbray free reign? Personally I can’t believe anyone would give them the benefit of the doubt for even a second. People like to paint any cynicism or questioning of their actions is baseless, paranoid and negative. In reality their track record of farcical decisions and habitual lies is more than enough grounds for concern.

Of course Mowbray and Waggott aren’t going to come out and admit this. They’d lose their jobs. Instead they will peddle the usual 4 phrases that it seems they are contractually obligated to do whenever they mention the owners... “Supportive, passionate, knowledgeable and humble” then Cheston will chirp in with “you are lucky to have them”.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, RovingRover said:

Barnsley left-back/left-wing back Tom Pearce moving from Leeds United to Barnsley. Miles ahead of Amari'i Bell in quality and development. Rovers nowhere near it regardless of blatantly needed left sided defensive reinforcements.

They are paying in the region of £300,000 for him. Absolute bargain!

Meanwhile Rovers are taking the very casual attitude of "well we don't need anyone, but if something good comes along we might go for it". This a week after 72 hours of solid enquiries and bids for a range of defenders in Germany and one in Holland.

The club is not making itself look good at the moment.

Where have you seen Pearce play? He has started 2 championship games in his entire career. 

[Blue blood]

21 minutes ago, Harry The Bass said:

It doesn’t have to be ear marked for attackers, for us not to spend money on defenders.

To me this is a huge side effect of decline, change, upheaval and no squad building continuity.

There is also the weighting between attacking / defensive graduates. We’ve had, have far more defenders than attackers, No8s, 9s, 10s and 11s!

Complex business is developing a squad to challenge without simply spending lots of money and buying it ready made.

But Tony makes it more complicated then it needs to be. Say playing a right back at right back instead of a mediocre midfielder there who's out of his depth in that position instead. Or playing our brightest prospect (Rothwell) rather then sticking him on the bench. Or even blowing £7 million on a striker who is not up to scratch. 

Also there is value to be had in the market. Norwich's top scorer last season came on a free. The lad from Hibs to Villa cost only £3 mill ish. Bauer was available on a free and we had even identified him as an option and fluffed it. And Bowyer was a poor manager but excellent scout who found huge value in the market - Cairney, Gestede and more. Don't buy that it's a lack of financial power holding us back this transfer window whatsoever. 

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, RovingRover said:

Meanwhile Rovers are taking the very casual attitude of "well we don't need anyone, but if something good comes along we might go for it". This a week after 72 hours of solid enquiries and bids for a range of defenders in Germany and one in Holland.

The club is not making itself look good at the moment.

Can you say who we put in for? Would PSV centre back Trent Sailsbury be one of those bid on? 

[Hi Mack]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

Can you say who we put in for? Would PSV centre back Trent Sailsbury be one of those bid on? 

I agree, it's not even like it's a discussion regarding defenders. I am yet to talk to a fellow Rover who is happy with our defensive options.

Either A - TM and MV have totally lost the plot. Or,

B- we are playing down or defensive requirements to stop clubs hiking the prices for their defenders.

 

[RovingRover]

2 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Where have you seen Pearce play? He has started 2 championship games in his entire career. 

7 actually. He also spent time out on loan at Scunthorpe.
I have seen some scouting data on him. He was the subject of some transfer interest in Greece and is highly thought of.

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

Can you say who we put in for? Would PSV centre back Trent Sailsbury be one of those bid on? 

Trent Sainsbury?
Honestly don't know if he is a player we have shown interest in. I don't know who the Holland based player is. I only know 2 of the names of players we have shown interest in, in Germany. One has been made public and the other I listed some pages back but is out of our price range

Just now, Hi Mack said:

I agree, it's not even like it's a discussion regarding defenders. I am yet to talk to a fellow Rover who is happy with our defensive options.

Either A - TM and MV have totally lost the plot. Or,

B- we are playing down or defensive requirements to stop clubs hiking the prices for their defenders.

 

C- The club are lying about the available budget in terms of transfer funds and are constrained on wages.

Whilst Mowbray has been saying he wants to retain players, I know for a fact Rovers have been trying to find suitors for several players both on long term deals and out on loan to reduce the wage bill.

There is a reason Mowbray said one thing in May. Had his meeting with Venkys in June and then does something completely different in July/August.

Edited August 7, 2019 by RovingRover

[JHRover]

The reliable Pete O'Rourke saying Magloire to Rochdale for the season.

Sharp piggybacking on saying it doesn't mean any arrivals.

Utter madness after what happened in February. Now lost Rodwell and Magloire as CB cover as well as Downing and Wharton.

[OJRovers]

Smallwood at CB before the end of September, it’s going to happen isn’t it ?

[JBiz]

Just now, Miller11 said:

A lot of that is exactly what Mowbray and Waggott will come out with to placate any dissenters amongst the supporters. Doesn’t was with me though.

Play fair! Rather dismissive to start a post with a suggestion its merely PR for the club. I only post my opinion.

Just now, Miller11 said:

We have spent more on Dominic Samuel than any defender in 7 years. We have regularly played midfielders in the back four since they potted Allardyce. Money is readily available to spend on “young attacking players”... best part of £15 million quid either unable to nudge ahead of Danny Graham or accommodated out wide. We’ve had Lenihan (who Mowbray not so long ago said fancied himself as a midfielder) and Nyambe (still younger than Whatton and chucked in when he was younger than Brereton) come through the youth ranks... I suppose there was Henley as well, but his career has fallen off a cliff. Magloire looked miles off last season and was only called upon due to utter desperation... we are hardly spoiled for choice with these young defensive graduates, and we flogged the best one who is now playing in the premier league for a pittance.

Last line is particularly a sore one - Jack O'Connell. Cant remember the exact timing of his departure, but surely he would've been the perfect person to replace either Duffy or Hanley. Low and behold, we end up with Greer and Brown.

That to me is a mistake caused by a lack of direction and continuity - similarly, Wharton is now seen as someone yet to develop, but we gave him a contract and thus leaves for league 2 opportunities. Constant upheaval of staff, a stream of decisions made by people who would leave within months. 

Much of that is why I find that pre-mowbray stuff is largely irrelevant when assessing his decisions. The key stuff for me is what he inherited, what he has spent, and what he has now. 

On that basis alone, it is impossible to ignore the weight of funding has gone into attacking positions. I see this as a flaw in recruitment - but perhaps give the him more benefit of the doubt in some respects. Just to quickly summarise a few previously mentioned;

1. More options initially (squad he inherited) defensively than offensively, in the squad and on the cusp via the academy,

2. A difficult market (which has doubled in value since 2014) to attract players (wages, 2 windows in league one etc) - Even our recent "splurge" is dwarfed by the standard wage spend of recently relegated clubs

3. A need for a complete upheaval of any analysis or proper European scouting, because the previous decline to TM had seen this completely neglected.

 

These factors in no way exclude blame or are attempts to "defend" Mowbray either. They don't hide potential mistakes like for the inability to get a striker to compete with Graham last year and settling for a 19 year old, or the renewals of some players unlikely to feature, or this summer to sell Raya before making sure we have a better replacement lined up. Mistakes have compounded our difficulties in competing with better budgets or better run clubs, and the next one will be failing to stop us making stupid defensive mistakes - regardless of personnel.

The mistakes individually are subjective too - I am sure there are many who will say turning down 15m of Dack is/was a huge mistake, but I would've been scathing of the club if that had/has happens at any time soon.

Just now, Miller11 said:

I genuinely believed Mowbray’s “defenders are coming speech”. He clearly meant it. I can’t believe the backtracking is merely a change of heart.

Is it really so difficult to believe Venky’s are meddling in transfer business and aren’t giving Mowbray free reign? Personally I can’t believe anyone would give them the benefit of the doubt for even a second. People like to paint any cynicism or questioning of their actions is baseless, paranoid and negative. In reality their track record of farcical decisions and habitual lies is more than enough grounds for concern.

Of course Mowbray and Waggott aren’t going to come out and admit this. They’d lose their jobs. Instead they will peddle the usual 4 phrases that it seems they are contractually obligated to do whenever they mention the owners... “Supportive, passionate, knowledgeable and humble” then Cheston will chirp in with “you are lucky to have them”.

Id rather judge them both by their actions and outcomes.

If they are telling us they have relative free reign within budgets, they pump the expectations up. My own included.

In terms of how easy is it to believe "Venkys" are meddling in transfer business in relation to investment in defenders, to get to that view I would have to ignore that the club has made more selling money selling defenders in their time than any other position, namely our record sale Phil Jones. Surely that would be motivation for any "model" hinged on buying low and selling high, to go out and spend 5 million on a young centre back who might be worth 30m in 2 seasons?