Sheffield Wednesday away Sat 16th March

[Parsonblue]

3 hours ago, Stuart said:

You’ve seriously broken your hiatus to defend Venkys?

If they really wanted this club to succeed then we wouldn’t all be terrified of them appointing yet another cheap and inferior manager as a reason to continue to put up with a failing one who is a ‘very nice man’. Instead of the regular chaos, we would have a proper Club Chairman, a 5-year and 10-year plan and appropriate budgets, and maybe even a lick of paint.

But let me put you right, it’s a football club so it’s not just her business, it’s all of our business. She needs to learn that. I’m only surprised that you do too.

Actually it's not our business Stuart and that's what supporters don't seem to understand.  Football has changed.  Clubs are no longer run by the local butcher, baker etc.  They are owned, largely, by big business who run them on business lines.  The old system for the Rovers ended when Jack took over.  It was run how Jack wanted it to be run - the advantage being that he was also a supporter of the club - but he ran it how he wanted to run it - when Kenny wanted new players after the title win Jack took a different view and it was his view that counted.  Jack wanted to get the business to be self-sufficient so that it didn't rely on him pumping money in all the time.  It was one of the reasons he was so keen to set up the Academy.  Steve Waggott has also talked about getting away from the 'owner dependency' model but I'm not convinced that we can ever do that, even with Premier League football.  

We can complain all we like, and I often do, but the old system has gone for good.  A look at any Indian financial website will show you how many businesses that Mrs. Desai, her husband and brothers, either own or are the largest shareholders in.  The last time I looked it was something over 50.  The only one making a loss seemed to be Rovers which is why I suspect that the new administrative structure has been brought in.  

Football is big business and it's what attracts wealthy individuals to adding a sporting franchise to their portfolio and sadly, that is what football clubs have become - another addition to a business portfolio.  You only need look at American football and baseball to see the way the wind is blowing.  The expansion of the European Champions League tells you everything you need to know about the long term future of football.

Apologies mod, just noticed that in replying to Stuart it has nothing to do with Sheff. Wed.

Edited March 17, 2019 by Parsonblue

[Stuart]

9 minutes ago, Crimpshrine said:

If this current run was at the start of the season and we sat bottom of the league on 4 points after 9 matches I don't think anyone would be defending the manger.

If we were a normal club with a competent board made up of people who understand football I would say now is the perfect time to change the manager - International break for him to settle in and then 8 games to assess the current playing staff. Then recruit over the summer ready for next season.

However, we are not a normal club. VO.

This is what happens every season all over the world. But for some reason not at Rovers.

It must be quite easy to get into a very pally mode at Rovers. Everyone does their best (or gives it a right good go) and win or lose, relegation or promotion, everyone carries on doing their thing. It’s unusual for any football manager to feel that he can (and will) be around for longer than the average 18 months.

Being a nice person - in the eyes of Venkys - is much more important:

Kean, then the chaotic period until (nice guy) Bowyer was promoted, then Lambert - the first credible appointment), then Coyle (the cheap option) then Mowbray (nice guy). Kean and Bowyer stayed far beyond their expiry date and Mowbray is likely to do the same.

The next one should be credible again so Hughes would be a welcome change. Get him in now, get the last four home games on a £50 “deal”, and give him a reasonable budget for the Summer. Tell him Tony spent the money so it’s sell to buy. Cash in on Dack and let him rebuild.

[tomphil]

18 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Why get worked up ?  They're supposed to be pro athletes with a bit of pride in themselves and the shirt. I bloody hated losing, after losing a game like that I'd have to lie down in a darkened room to calm down. There's nothing beating under that badge and it's been like that for ages. When that Dingle got on the pitch at the Turf years ago our lads faced him down, this lot would have run away.

Totally agree i'm just saying what I think their mindset is because they're safe in the knowledge their contracts are done and there's no chance of the play offs. Also I think something that won't have gone unnoticed amongst the group is the lack of ambition and seeming job done attitude in the Jan window after some big talk earlier on by the manager.

It's just going through the motions time and has been for a while and we have passed that point again I think where losing just doesn't bother them that much anymore whereas not long ago they bristled to put it right after every slip up, shrug of shoulders now and ok we'll try again next week. Managers pre match stuff has summed this up as well and as time goes on there's a lot of ready made excuses presenting themselves for him.

Edited March 17, 2019 by tomphil

[tomphil]

3 hours ago, roversmum said:

She isn’t like that at all. In any case it’s her business and against all the nonsense she wants it to succeed no doubt surprisingly to some of you.

 

Possibly but you have to add in the other 3 and their various advisers and our middleman who's recently landed himself a job title after hiding in the shadows for nearly a decade.

I think they might all have different ideas about how to go about it and what they actually want or need from it.

I feel it would work better if there was just once voice, one driving force.

[Stuart]

Just now, Parsonblue said:

Actually it's not our business Stuart and that's what supporters don't seem to understand.  Football has changed.  Clubs are no longer run by the local butcher, baker etc.  They are owned, largely, by big business who run them on business lines.  The old system for the Rovers ended when Jack took over.  It was run how Jack wanted it to be run - the advantage being that he was also a supporter of the club - but he ran it how he wanted to run it - when Kenny wanted new players after the title win Jack took a different view and it was his view that counted.  Jack wanted to get the business to be self-sufficient so that it didn't rely on him pumping money in all the time.  It was one of the reasons he was so keen to set up the Academy.  Steve Waggott has also talked about getting away from the 'owner dependency' model but I'm not convinced that we can ever do that, even with Premier League football.  

We can complain all we like, and I often do, but the old system has gone for good.  A look at any Indian financial website will show you how many businesses that Mrs. Desai, her husband and brothers, either own or are the largest shareholders in.  The last time I looked it was something over 50.  The only one making a loss seemed to be Rovers which is why I suspect that the new administrative structure has been brought in.  

Football is big business and it's what attracts wealthy individuals to adding a sporting franchise to their portfolio and sadly, that is what football clubs have become - another addition to a business portfolio.  You only need look at American football and baseball to see the way the wind is blowing.  The expansion of the European Champions League tells you everything you need to know about the long term future of football.

Apologies mod, just noticed that in replying to Stuart it has nothing to do with Sheff. Wed.

But you have missed the point completely. Football clubs at their heart are not businesses, they are not legal entities, they are not even bricks and mortar. They are living entities, with souls. They are not just part of the community, the are the community. If you took away the fans the custodians would have to ditch their asset pretty quickly. People don’t realise the power the actually have. They cling to a stadium or a badge or a shirt or even trophies. Fans hold all the aces but will simply not stick together even when the chips are down. Die hard fans would even walk away rather than support a Phoenix club. This is why I protested and you didn’t. You want the club to survive in whatever form and by whomever runs it - maybe it’s good for sales - I want there to continue be a club that represents this town, ideally Rovers, even a “Blackburn Rovers 2020”. 

Middlesbrough F(A)C has only been around since 1986 when Gibson came along but everyone still cracks on as though it was formed in 1876 (they even snuck in the change with an update of their badge). Winkleman tried to destroy Wimbledon and it rose from the ashes and returned to league football. Built on blood, sweat and hard work.

Football clubs do not “belong” to the incumbent custodians they are merely looking after it on behalf of the local community.

Venkys can recruit whichever manager they like, but the choices they make are just as important to the fans as to them - probably more so. If they re-hired Steve Kean that would be me done with “Venkys Rovers” until they left and I suspect a heck of a lot more.

[joey_big_nose]

Just now, Stuart said:

But you have missed the point completely. Football clubs at their heart are not businesses, they are not legal entities, they are not even bricks and mortar. They are living entities, with souls. They are not just part of the community, the are the community. If you took away the fans the custodians would have to ditch their asset pretty quickly. People don’t realise the power the actually have. They cling to a stadium or a badge or a shirt or even trophies. Fans hold all the aces but will simply not stick together even when the chips are down. Die hard fans would even walk away rather than support a Phoenix club. This is why I protested and you didn’t. You want the club to survive in whatever form and by whomever runs it - maybe it’s good for sales - I want there to continue be a club that represents this town, ideally Rovers, even a “Blackburn Rovers 2020”. 

Middlesbrough F(A)C has only been around since 1986 when Gibson came along but everyone still cracks on as though it was formed in 1876 (they even snuck in the change with an update of their badge). Winkleman tried to destroy Wimbledon and it rose from the ashes and returned to league football. Built on blood, sweat and hard work.

Football clubs do not “belong” to the incumbent custodians they are merely looking after it on behalf of the local community.

Venkys can recruit whichever manager they like, but the choices they make are just as important to the fans as to them - probably more so. If they re-hired Steve Kean that would be me done with “Venkys Rovers” until they left and I suspect a heck of a lot more.

I agree with all of this.

I would argue legislation should be introduced to mandate a % ownership by fans of a club (25% or 50%), and a equivalent mandatory number of seats on the board.

They have it in Germany and it works well. Fans all over the country would prefer that system. There would still be room for private and foreign investment. It's win win really. Existing owners could be compensated for their lost share.

Someone should bring it to parliament.

[BlackburnEnd75]

I’ve listened to that radio lancs interview now. Thought he said some pretty worrying things again. His comments on Rothwell were very strange after the performance he put it in. Goes on about consistency but he delivered today so why be so harsh with him? I bet he’s on the bench at Villa. Frustrating stuff at the moment.

[47er]

5 hours ago, Ossydave said:

Or, you could name some 

Of course I could. If you're too lazy to google it why should I do it for you? I'd guess there would be around 15 teenagers playing in the Championship but you'll have to find out for yourself.

The real point is being obscured though----Brereton is not playing in the Championship and the transfer fee was a reported £7m!

I'd guess there are teenagers playing regularly and they cost nothing.

If you don't see this as a dumb deal. there's nothing more I can say.

[47er]

12 hours ago, Neal said:

Was best player on the pitch for us against Brentford out wide. I somewhat agree though, I think the manager needs to use him more wisely, needs to pick his moments when to play him through the middle and when to put him out wide. Often he puts him out wide in the wrong situations when he would have been better bringing him on in the last 30 up top. 

We should play with two up front. Anyone would think we were an Italian club of the seventies looking for an away draw. Armstrong could feed off Graham but we'll never know.

[blueboy3333]

Just now, 47er said:

We should play with two up front. Anyone would think we were an Italian club of the seventies looking for an away draw. Armstrong could feed off Graham but we'll never know.

Where would you play Dack? 

[47er]

Just now, blueboy3333 said:

Where would you play Dack? 

Well I could wriggle out of it by saying that won't be an issue because he'll be off in the summer!

But you have raised a genuine issue there which I've thought about before. He could have a free licence to wander all over the pitch behind the front two but that could well leave us vulnerable in defence.So improve the quality of the defence! 

However, if he's going to make it big-time, maybe he needs to add new strings to his bow and improve his own defensive game.

Best I can do I'm afraid. I do know that leaving Graham up-front on his own isn't the answer to our problems. It's sterile.

[tomphil]

13 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

Where would you play Dack? 

Doubt we'll have that particular problem next season which is maybe why he should mix it up a bit now.

[blueboy3333]

8 minutes ago, 47er said:

Well I could wriggle out of it by saying that won't be an issue because he'll be off in the summer!

But you have raised a genuine issue there which I've thought about before. He could have a free licence to wander all over the pitch behind the front two but that could well leave us vulnerable in defence.So improve the quality of the defence! 

However, if he's going to make it big-time, maybe he needs to add new strings to his bow and improve his own defensive game.

Best I can do I'm afraid. I do know that leaving Graham up-front on his own isn't the answer to our problems. It's sterile.

It's a tricky one, but ultimately it's fiddling while Rome burns until Mowbray sorts out the defence and keeper.

As others have said though Dack will probably be gone by next season. If Mulgrew has been put out to pasture and Graham's legs finally do go ? we'll have about 50 goals to find in this summers transfer market. Frightening thought... 

[Parsonblue]

5 hours ago, Stuart said:

But you have missed the point completely. Football clubs at their heart are not businesses, they are not legal entities, they are not even bricks and mortar. They are living entities, with souls. They are not just part of the community, the are the community. If you took away the fans the custodians would have to ditch their asset pretty quickly. People don’t realise the power the actually have. They cling to a stadium or a badge or a shirt or even trophies. Fans hold all the aces but will simply not stick together even when the chips are down. Die hard fans would even walk away rather than support a Phoenix club. This is why I protested and you didn’t. You want the club to survive in whatever form and by whomever runs it - maybe it’s good for sales - I want there to continue be a club that represents this town, ideally Rovers, even a “Blackburn Rovers 2020”. 

Middlesbrough F(A)C has only been around since 1986 when Gibson came along but everyone still cracks on as though it was formed in 1876 (they even snuck in the change with an update of their badge). Winkleman tried to destroy Wimbledon and it rose from the ashes and returned to league football. Built on blood, sweat and hard work.

Football clubs do not “belong” to the incumbent custodians they are merely looking after it on behalf of the local community.

Venkys can recruit whichever manager they like, but the choices they make are just as important to the fans as to them - probably more so. If they re-hired Steve Kean that would be me done with “Venkys Rovers” until they left and I suspect a heck of a lot more.

You are right Stuart we do differ drastically on this point and always will.  For me Blackburn Rovers is part and parcel of the town's heritage in that it has been around since 1875.  It's history is intertwined with that of the town. For me THAT HISTORY is it's soul.  But, like every other aspect of life, football clubs evolve and they have evolved into businesses that are attractive to wealthy individuals from outside of a particular town or city who, whilst maintaining the links with local communities, also see them as businesses to be run on business lines.

Our history is what it is because of the financial input of several wealthy benefactors over several generations.  Our history is why we are regarded as one of the more successful town clubs in the country.  The difference today is that our owners are not local, but then the owners of so many of our clubs have no links to the town or city within which the club sits.  That's the continued evolvement of football and I doubt it will change anytime soon.  I suspect that the majority of supporters who go to Ewood on a regular basis still see the club as one that represents the town - I know I do, as do my friends.  In continuing to support the club we are simply following the footprints of generations of supporters that go back to 1875 - that's not something I would wish to see easily dismissed.

[arbitro]

I've just seen on the LT website that in our four of our last five away games we have scored two in each but have garnered one point.

That summarises exactly were we are.

[AllRoverAsia]

Just now, arbitro said:

I've just seen on the LT website that in our four of our last five away games we have scored two in each but have garnered one point.

That summarises exactly were we are.

42 goals conceeded in 19 away games, so we need to score 2 to have any chance of a draw. Pathetic in the extreme.

[blueboy3333]

19 minutes ago, arbitro said:

I've just seen on the LT website that in our four of our last five away games we have scored two in each but have garnered one point.

That summarises exactly were we are.

Mowbray thinks the defence is fine (or he did until he needed someone to blame for the regular stuffings) . That's the worry for next season. Mulgrew, Williams and Bell (and Raya) simply can't defend and yet they are all on long contracts. Do people think they'll all be replaced/sold?

[Mercer]

11 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

Mowbray thinks the defence is fine (or he did until he needed someone to blame for the regular stuffings) . That's the worry for next season. Mulgrew, Williams and Bell (and Raya) simply can't defend and yet they are all on long contracts. Do people think they'll all be replaced/sold?

Sadly, I think it will cost money to get rid of them.  IMO, liabilities who will be very difficult to shift.

[DE.]

1 hour ago, AllRoverAsia said:

42 goals conceeded in 19 away games, so we need to score 2 to have any chance of a draw. Pathetic in the extreme.

In the nearly 9 years Venky's have been here this has been a consistent theme. Defence has never been the focus and as a result we've consistently fallen short of expectations and ultimately regressed to the point where fans are patting Mowbray on the back just for keeping us in the Championship (albeit potentially at a lower points total than when we got relegated in 16/17). Appleton and Lambert both spoke about sorting out the defence but were out the door way before this could realistically be implemented. 

[tomphil]

Starting paying people off again is lunacy and to be fair they don't fall into that category of previous piss takers and utter dross that hamstrung the club for years so in most cases there is no need.  Most have done a job for us and are being given fair contracts and further chances in return but now some need to be relegated to back up and others where possible moved on.

You might get a cut price deal for a few but their wages here compared to going to a league 1 team will be a major sticking point so maybe a few will go on loan.  As for the Evans, Mulgrews etc they are here a while yet so it's a case of getting in some steel at the back first and foremost then a target man up front and then quality if possible wherever else possible but you can bet your house thee'll be no budget for all that.

Next season will be another of biting the bullet I think and just trying to improve THIS squad.

Edited March 18, 2019 by tomphil

[BlackburnEnd75]

You can forget about getting a fee for any of them.

I suppose it depends what sort of wages they are on. If Mulgrew is on £15k a week at Rovers then even that's too much for most scottish teams outside of Rangers and Celtic and he ain't going to either of those. Same with Williams if he on close to £10k a week, are a top half league 1 club going to pay that? I think someone would sign Smallwood on a free, not as sure about Evans but probably. Bell would find another club and with his ages might demand a small fee. So your into the territory of paying a chunk of their wages for them to play somewhere else. A complete pay off is out of the question for me. 

Wages are the problem we've got when signing players, like with the Brereton signing you get the feeling that the money is there for the transfers but not for wages. We've actually done quite well to lower the wage bill but then Mowbray has given pay rises and longer contracts to players who we now know aren't up to it and have no resale value. This is going to limit the scope of the changes we can make in the summer.

What we desperately need is £5million or so being spent on a commanding centre back. You look at say Leeds and Norwich for all the football they play they each have a very dominant centre back in Pontus Jansson and Timm Klose and if we had that it would be a big part towards us becoming a stronger defensive unit, won;t be cheap though.

 

[Bbrovers2288]

Just now, BlackburnEnd75 said:

You can forget about getting a fee for any of them.

I suppose it depends what sort of wages they are on. If Mulgrew is on £15k a week at Rovers then even that's too much for most scottish teams outside of Rangers and Celtic and he ain't going to either of those. Same with Williams if he on close to £10k a week, are a top half league 1 club going to pay that? I think someone would sign Smallwood on a free, not as sure about Evans but probably. Bell would find another club and with his ages might demand a small fee. So your into the territory of paying a chunk of their wages for them to play somewhere else. A complete pay off is out of the question for me. 

Wages are the problem we've got when signing players, like with the Brereton signing you get the feeling that the money is there for the transfers but not for wages. We've actually done quite well to lower the wage bill but then Mowbray has given pay rises and longer contracts to players who we now know aren't up to it and have no resale value. This is going to limit the scope of the changes we can make in the summer.

What we desperately need is £5million or so being spent on a commanding centre back. You look at say Leeds and Norwich for all the football they play they each have a very dominant centre back in Pontus Jansson and Timm Klose and if we had that it would be a big part towards us becoming a stronger defensive unit, won;t be cheap though.

 

That’s why we need scouts to be looking at lower league overseas players, doesn’t have to be expensive if we can unearth a gem like samba. Don’t think Jansson cost Leeds that much 

[JHRover]

Just now, BlackburnEnd75 said:

You can forget about getting a fee for any of them.

I suppose it depends what sort of wages they are on. If Mulgrew is on £15k a week at Rovers then even that's too much for most scottish teams outside of Rangers and Celtic and he ain't going to either of those. Same with Williams if he on close to £10k a week, are a top half league 1 club going to pay that? I think someone would sign Smallwood on a free, not as sure about Evans but probably. Bell would find another club and with his ages might demand a small fee. So your into the territory of paying a chunk of their wages for them to play somewhere else. A complete pay off is out of the question for me. 

Wages are the problem we've got when signing players, like with the Brereton signing you get the feeling that the money is there for the transfers but not for wages. We've actually done quite well to lower the wage bill but then Mowbray has given pay rises and longer contracts to players who we now know aren't up to it and have no resale value. This is going to limit the scope of the changes we can make in the summer.

What we desperately need is £5million or so being spent on a commanding centre back. You look at say Leeds and Norwich for all the football they play they each have a very dominant centre back in Pontus Jansson and Timm Klose and if we had that it would be a big part towards us becoming a stronger defensive unit, won;t be cheap though.

 

We'll do well if we get £5 million from the owners full stop. Out of that we need 7-8 decent players all on relatively low wages. Unless Mowbray and his new scouting system are going to be pulling rabbits out of the hat or unless Venkys suddenly significantly increase the kitty we're in difficulties. it will be the loan market again but we've seen before that is usually a case of get who comes available as and when the big clubs are prepared to allow it. You can't really plan properly with it, you just have to strike when the opportunity arises.

I suspect we'll get more references to selling Dack beginning to appear in Mowbray's comments. The logic will be we're going to just go out and get £15 million for him and then we'll be able to spend all that on new players. Realistically even if the first one happened the chances of Venkys pumping the full amount back in are remote. I don't buy it after what happened with Rhodes and co.

I very much doubt Mowbray has any idea what, if any, money will be made available and won't find up until his appointment in India in May.

[Blue blood]

Not convinced TM would spend it wisely even if he somehow got all the money...

[BlackburnEnd75]

20 minutes ago, Bbrovers2288 said:

That’s why we need scouts to be looking at lower league overseas players, doesn’t have to be expensive if we can unearth a gem like samba. Don’t think Jansson cost Leeds that much 

£3.5 million I think, although he'd likely be the highest earner at the club if was here.

17 minutes ago, JHRover said:

We'll do well if we get £5 million from the owners full stop. Out of that we need 7-8 decent players all on relatively low wages. Unless Mowbray and his new scouting system are going to be pulling rabbits out of the hat or unless Venkys suddenly significantly increase the kitty we're in difficulties. it will be the loan market again but we've seen before that is usually a case of get who comes available as and when the big clubs are prepared to allow it. You can't really plan properly with it, you just have to strike when the opportunity arises.

I suspect we'll get more references to selling Dack beginning to appear in Mowbray's comments. The logic will be we're going to just go out and get £15 million for him and then we'll be able to spend all that on new players. Realistically even if the first one happened the chances of Venkys pumping the full amount back in are remote. I don't buy it after what happened with Rhodes and co.

I very much doubt Mowbray has any idea what, if any, money will be made available and won't find up until his appointment in India in May.

The frustration is we committed around £7million on Brereton a player who wasn't brought in to immediately improve the first 11 or seemingly with a particular role in mind.

I think considering they released the funds last window that £5million might be available again. Like you say that scouting teams needs to pick some gems out, take Preston for example they regularly sign players in the £500k -£1million bracket, for every one that works another doesn't theres no sure thing deal in that kind of market. Brentofrd have signed good attacking players like Benrahma, Watkins and Maupay for around £1.5 million. I rate Rothwell as a player and he only cost us about £500k I think, Dack was £750k

We shouldn't really be relying on more than 1 loan player per window really, they usually only become available later in the window anyway and we don't want to be moving late on again.

I agree that it must be hard for Mowbray to plan when they don;t know whats available.