Mowbray’s Future

[DE.]

Sacking Mowbray would only intensify our problems. For real progress we need change at a much higher level.

[Don Said]

Wrong thread

Edited December 27, 2018 by Don Said

[blueboy3333]

8 minutes ago, HowieFive0 said:

Save a lot of faffing around BB ?

Obvious the natives are getting restless !

Ha! I'm not sure anyone is seriously suggesting we sack him ( at least I hope not) but the team makes the same mistakes nearly every week.

There will come a point when the chicken overlords ask whether they are getting value for their £10m summer 'investment'. The Venksters also want promotion. Mowbrays inability to rectify the problems that have plagued us all season will come back to bite him at some point. 

[HowieFive0]

Just now, blueboy3333 said:

Ha! I'm not sure anyone is seriously suggesting we sack him ( at least I hope not) but the team makes the same mistakes nearly every week.

There will come a point when the chicken overlords ask whether they are getting value for their £10m summer 'investment'. The Venksters also want promotion. Mowbrays inability to rectify the problems that have plagued us all season will come back to bite him at some point. 

 DE quoted an "Embarrassement" of recent results. Yes we ve not picked up a healthy points haul but you could also say ...

 Rotherham ..we battered them. A fluke result.

Preston and wigan ..awful.

Sheff Weds ..won at a canter.

Boro ..a good point away from home.

Brum ..a team above us ..coasting at 2-0 at 74 mins a rash moment from Raya brings them back into it when they re heads were well and truly down.

Norwich ..second in the league ..holding them at 0-0 til 84 mins

Leeds top ..after 90 mins we re actually winning 2-1! (after beating them at home too !)

Very fine margins ..

As Biz said earlier maybe we aint that far off being a decent side ? We re more than holding our own in this league that's for sure...and have given the so called Big boys in this league a run for their money when we have played them.

The million dollar question is... is TM the man to to get those two or three good acquisitions to make us into a top six side and push for promotion? 

 

 

[JHRover]

7 minutes ago, HowieFive0 said:

 DE quoted an "Embarrassement" of recent results. Yes we ve not picked up a healthy points haul but you could also say ...

 Rotherham ..we battered them. A fluke result.

Preston and wigan ..awful.

Sheff Weds ..won at a canter.

Boro ..a good point away from home.

Brum ..a team above us ..coasting at 2-0 at 74 mins a rash moment from Raya brings them back into it when they re heads were well and truly down.

Norwich ..second in the league ..holding them at 0-0 til 84 mins

Leeds top ..after 90 mins we re actually winning 2-1! (after beating them at home too !)

Very fine margins ..

As Biz said earlier maybe we aint that far off being a decent side ? We re more than holding our own in this league that's for sure...and have given the so called Big boys in this league a run for their money when we have played them.

The million dollar question is... is TM the man to to get those two or three good acquisitions to make us into a top six side and push for promotion? 

 

 

Not sure I would agree with some of those verdicts. Rotherham I thought we were poor in the first half and barely had a chance and were lucky to be 0-0 at half time. Another one of those games we had an awful first half with no goals and very few chances. We upped the tempo in the second half and had a few decent chances and they were on the rack but then went down the other end and scored with their only chance, which then cost us 2 points as we needed 2 to win. 

Preston and Wigan were abysmal and embarrassing. Wigan's only win in about 13 games and we barely laid a glove on them. 

Sheffield Wednesday were at the height of their crisis when we played them. Telling that they are the only side we've beaten by more than a single goal margin.

Birmingham - threw away 2 points - again - having barely been troubled. Incompetence. 

Leeds took it to new levels - regardless of the opposition to take the lead in the 90th minute and end up losing is a travesty and brings our failings into the spotlight. It would have been a smash and grab job had we got the win but you need a few of them over a season. Once again the goals came through a couple of set-pieces dispatched well by Mulgrew rather than through open play - another issue we have - very rare we score unless through Dack, Graham or Mulgrew.

 

[blueboy3333]

10 minutes ago, HowieFive0 said:

 DE quoted an "Embarrassement" of recent results. Yes we ve not picked up a healthy points haul but you could also say ...

 Rotherham ..we battered them. A fluke result.

Preston and wigan ..awful.

Sheff Weds ..won at a canter.

Boro ..a good point away from home.

Brum ..a team above us ..coasting at 2-0 at 74 mins a rash moment from Raya brings them back into it when they re heads were well and truly down.

Norwich ..second in the league ..holding them at 0-0 til 84 mins

Leeds top ..after 90 mins we re actually winning 2-1! (after beating them at home too !)

Very fine margins ..

As Biz said earlier maybe we aint that far off being a decent side ? We re more than holding our own in this league that's for sure...and have given the so called Big boys in this league a run for their money when we have played them.

The million dollar question is... is TM the man to to get those two or three good acquisitions to make us into a top six side and push for promotion? 

 

 

Rotherham - poor defending cost us 

Sheff Weds -  good win

Boro -  Couldn't hold on or score again against a side with 10 men for an hour. Not a good side either. Boro have won 1 of their last 8 at home.

Preston and Wigan - Familiar collapse in both.  Embarrassing. 

Brum - defensive error and the familiar collapse

Norwich - good performance but ultimately a defensive mistake cost us - again. 

Leeds - Familiar collapse 

In a very tight league we are the wrong side of these fine margins on a regular basis. 

 

 

[DE.]

I saw Mulgrew quoted as saying we need to be in the right side of these fine margins and that sums up the problem. We should be aiming for there not to be fine margins in the first place. Obviously there are going to be tight games, but the aim should be to get out on the front foot, get at least a couple of goals into the lead and then stay solid and look to finish off the opposition. Instead our players seem to think it's acceptable to live on fine margins and we just need to be on the right side of them more often. We will never get anywhere with that mentality. 

[HowieFive0]

13 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

Rotherham - poor defending cost us 

Sheff Weds -  good win

Boro -  Couldn't hold on or score again against a side with 10 men for an hour. Not a good side either. Boro have won 1 of their last 8 at home.

Preston and Wigan - Familiar collapse in both.  Embarrassing. 

Brum - defensive error and the familiar collapse

Norwich - good performance but ultimately a defensive mistake cost us - again. 

Leeds - Familiar collapse 

In a very tight league we are the wrong side of these fine margins on a regular basis. 

 

 

 

19 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Not sure I would agree with some of those verdicts. Rotherham I thought we were poor in the first half and barely had a chance and were lucky to be 0-0 at half time. Another one of those games we had an awful first half with no goals and very few chances. We upped the tempo in the second half and had a few decent chances and they were on the rack but then went down the other end and scored with their only chance, which then cost us 2 points as we needed 2 to win. 

Preston and Wigan were abysmal and embarrassing. Wigan's only win in about 13 games and we barely laid a glove on them. 

Sheffield Wednesday were at the height of their crisis when we played them. Telling that they are the only side we've beaten by more than a single goal margin.

Birmingham - threw away 2 points - again - having barely been troubled. Incompetence. 

Leeds took it to new levels - regardless of the opposition to take the lead in the 90th minute and end up losing is a travesty and brings our failings into the spotlight. It would have been a smash and grab job had we got the win but you need a few of them over a season. Once again the goals came through a couple of set-pieces dispatched well by Mulgrew rather than through open play - another issue we have - very rare we score unless through Dack, Graham or Mulgrew.

 

As I say ...fine margins. As a newly promoted club we ve done ok. 10 -14th in the League finish im sure most at the start of the season would have been reasonably happy .  Although there are those that will always move the goalposts pardon the pun as the season progresses..

[RevidgeBlue]

Just now, HowieFive0 said:

 

As I say ...fine margins. As a newly promoted club we ve done ok. 10 -14th in the League finish im sure most at the start of the season would have been reasonably happy .  Although there are those that will always move the goalposts pardon the pun as the season progresses..

We've still got half the season to go yet. Long way to go before we can say we've finished 10th to 14th. Carry on as we are doing and it'll be 20th to 24th.

[DE.]

1 minute ago, HowieFive0 said:

 

As I say ...fine margins. As a newly promoted club we ve done ok. 10 -14th in the League finish im sure most at the start of the season would have been reasonably happy . 

The league hasn't ended yet though. We could still fall a lot further, especially with the way our confidence seems to have evaporated in the past couple of months. 

Changing expectations is perfectly acceptable and normal. Nobody had any idea how the league would pan out or how teams would look at the start of the season. Now we're mid-way through we can see that there are very few "great" teams in this division, but a lot of average and poor ones. So on that basis why wouldn't expectations change? Particularly as we had a relatively good start and the only major thing holding us back is some kind of bizarre team mental block which turns the players into idiots for the last twenty minutes of matches, especially if we're winning. 

[blueboy3333]

6 minutes ago, HowieFive0 said:

 

As I say ...fine margins. As a newly promoted club we ve done ok. 10 -14th in the League finish im sure most at the start of the season would have been reasonably happy .  Although there are those that will always move the goalposts pardon the pun as the season progresses..

I said 14th - 16th. Having seen all the teams in the division that was a conservative estimate. This isn't the Prem. There aren't  5 or 6 teams that are far better than anyone else. If we could see games out we'd be a lot higher. That isn't fine margins, that's a huge flaw in the team. 

[RevidgeBlue]

3 minutes ago, DE. said:

I saw Mulgrew quoted as saying we need to be in the right side of these fine margins and that sums up the problem. We should be aiming for there not to be fine margins in the first place. Obviously there are going to be tight games, but the aim should be to get out on the front foot, get at least a couple of goals into the lead and then stay solid and look to finish off the opposition. Instead our players seem to think it's acceptable to live on fine margins and we just need to be on the right side of them more often. We will never get anywhere with that mentality. 

Spot on. If that's the attitude of the team then it's completely wrong and it's no wonder we're on the wrong end of so many comebacks. The aim should be to be two or three goals up by the hour mark and have the game done and dusted. If we do occasionally  find ourselves in a game where it's tight then so be it but that shouldn't be the aim or expectation.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

3 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I agree there major question marks over those moves. Particularly Armstrong in my opinion as he actually plays and is rubbish. The jury is out on Brereton. 

We definitely should have spent as much as we could have on a centre half to partner Mulgrew. I suspect Tony thought Lenihan would perform better than he has. Needs to be sorted in January. If Sheffield United came back offering 4.5 million again for Lenihan, I would take their hand off. Plenty on here, me included, would have been annoyed if we had have accepted it last summer. Football is funny. 

We could always do them a swap for that lad we let go for peanuts a few years back.

[RevidgeBlue]

5 hours ago, Biz said:

Detested and had questionable motives.. 

Any comparison shows a reactive, absense of sense, ignorance of memory and complete lack of respect.

Even under Lambert and Bowyer, we had arguably more suitable championship squads- but both (despite better motives) never managed to build any consistency in our results.

Tony (imo) needs time to attempt the same at this level, not half a season. The lack of experience in our squad has led to issues with concentration, calmness and confidence when in good positions like yesterday. 

That to me shows (at least) that we aren’t too far away. Can TM change those “shit the bed” moments? I personally think he will.

I find it astounding that you think "we aren't too far away". The main worry for me is not that we have one win in eight etc etc (as if the worst comes to the worst we should have enough points in the bank to limp to survival) but rather the fact that long term we are showing no signs whatsoever of progression as a Club.

I think most supporters in the summer thought that if we were to compete as opposed to merely survive at this level the first team needed considerable strengthening in key areas i.e. centre back, a dominant  central midfielder  one or preferably two main strikers and a couple of genuine wingers. TM completely ignored this preferring not to upset the players already here and overloaded the squad with midfielders who with the benefit of hindsight he hasn't used. He has also handed new deals to players who either aren't good enough or who are on their last legs.

I don't think any blame can be attached to the owners in this, if you take TM at face value and the money was there all along for him in summer then he had a budget of c 11m for transfer fees plus loan fees and wages for all the loanees plus questionable contract extensions which overall should have been more than adequate to strengthen the first eleven. 

However there doesn't seem to be any suggestion whatsoever that we're looking to make the Reed deal permanent so once he goes back we'll be no better off than when we were promoted. If god help us Dack has had enough of carrying us or were to be sold then we'd be considerably weaker than where we were at the start of this season so the whole process of trying to merely consolidate would start again from a far weaker starting point.

 

Edited December 27, 2018 by RevidgeBlue

[Stuart]

5 hours ago, Gav said:

'Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it'

Wise words, Gav. We stuck with Bowyer when his ‘best before’ date had long expired and our best chance vanished. I expect someone will be keeping an eye on things this time around.

[Tom Stinny]

If we we're being ruthless in the summer the following would have happened.

 

Raya starting but an addition goalkeeper brought in to compete.

Lenihan replaced and put on the bench.

Smallwood replaced and put into 24 man squad.

Graham replaced and put on the bench.

Conway let go and two wingers brought in.

Armstrong not signed and a genuine winger brought in.

The manager gets a two year deal to keep him on his toes.

 

Goalkeeper - Fielding or Henderson

Centre half - Konsa

Left back - Douglas

Centre midfield - Reed

Wingers - McKay and Barnes or Reach

Striker - Pukki, Maupay, Watkins Roofe

 

Obviously it would be a real stretch to get some on that list but it would have sent a message to our players and other teams that we mean business.

 

Seen at samba is without a club at the moment and played for villa last year, would he do a job for 6 months? Or is he finished?

 

[philipl]

Crazy stuff on this thread.

Boy you guys were slow to get going when there was real shit at this club but once goaded you never stop.

Yes PNE and Wigan were awful and cost Mowbray a huge amount of goodwill he needed for the rest of this run.

But to be debating whether he should get sacked after what he has achieved at Rovers is just bonkers.

Especially when you look at the recent list of managers:

Kean

Berg

Appleton

Bowyer

Lambert

Coyle (displacing a good as appointed Warnock let's not forget)

Questions for you guys:

- be serious, is anybody going to chose any of the above as better than Mowbray?

- you are treating promotion from League 1 as an easy peasy splash in a toddler's paddle pool. Swap places with any of Barnsley, Burton or Sunderland just now?

- Between 0 and 100%, your level of confidence, Venky's to select a significantly better manager than Mowbray? 

 

[Rob1981]

1 minute ago, philipl said:

Crazy stuff on this thread.

Boy you guys were slow to get going when there was real shit at this club but once goaded you never stop.

Yes PNE and Wigan were awful and cost Mowbray a huge amount of goodwill he needed for the rest of this run.

But to be debating whether he should get sacked after what he has achieved at Rovers is just bonkers.

Especially when you look at the recent list of managers:

Kean

Berg

Appleton

Bowyer

Lambert

Coyle (displacing a good as appointed Warnock let's not forget)

Questions for you guys:

- be serious, is anybody going to chose any of the above as better than Mowbray?

- you are treating promotion from League 1 as an easy peasy splash in a toddler's paddle pool. Swap places with any of Barnsley, Burton or Sunderland just now?

- Between 0 and 100%, your level of confidence, Venky's to select a significantly better manager than Mowbray? 

 

My thoughts exactly. 

[Rob1981]

The disregard for getting us promoted last season is strange for me. Agreed, League one is not a great league but plenty before us haven’t come straight back up and you can’t ignore where momentum was heading before Mowbray took over. I was expecting us to head into league two rather than come straight back.

Yes, this is a depressing level of ambition but it’s a realistic one I think after what Venky’s have done to the club. At least we’ve enjoyed winning some games and a promotion under Mowbray. Consolidating in the Championship is a realistic level of ambition this season. I dread to think who we might appoint to replace him if he was fired....

[Ewood Ace]

19 minutes ago, philipl said:

Crazy stuff on this thread.

Boy you guys were slow to get going when there was real shit at this club but once goaded you never stop.

Yes PNE and Wigan were awful and cost Mowbray a huge amount of goodwill he needed for the rest of this run.



But to be debating whether he should get sacked after what he has achieved at Rovers is just bonkers.

Especially when you look at the recent list of managers:

Kean

Berg

Appleton

Bowyer

Lambert

Coyle (displacing a good as appointed Warnock let's not forget)

Questions for you guys:

- be serious, is anybody going to chose any of the above as better than Mowbray?

- you are treating promotion from League 1 as an easy peasy splash in a toddler's paddle pool. Swap places with any of Barnsley, Burton or Sunderland just now?

- Between 0 and 100%, your level of confidence, Venky's to select a significantly better manager than Mowbray? 

 

I'd say that Lambert is as good a manager as Mowbray but who like Mowbray his best years seem behind him although his did last longer. To me Bowyer is a very similar type of manager to Mowbray except Bowyer had far more success in the transfer market, both will probably keep you up and around mid table but their conservative approach will stop you progressing any further.

Sunderland will get promoted, Burton are overachieving by being in League 1 and Barnsley have yo-yoed between League 1 and the Championship for a while now. But let's be honest any half decent manager would have got us promoted with the squad and budget that we had. The only club of those 3 you can compare us to is Sunderland and I fully expect them to get promoted.

I think that there are managers available that are significantly better than Mowbray whether or not they would be appointed is another question. Do you think that Mowbray should have a job for life because you don't trust that anyone better would be appointed?

Edited December 27, 2018 by Ewood Ace

[DE.]

Most clubs that go down aren't allowed to keep players like Graham, Mulgrew or Evans - in fact most clubs would have lost players like Raya, Nyambe, Lenihan and Williams too. Mowbray was fortunate to be able to keep every decent player we had and bring in even more. Promotion is promotion but we should never have been in League 1 and it was actually a little unfair for us and Wigan to be down there with such strong squads. Nobody else really stood a chance as far as automatic promotion was concerned. 

I don't see many people on here demanding that Mowbray is sacked. Most people are saying the opposite - frustrated by his inability to fix our problems, but aware that sacking him is unlikely to be the answer. Doesn't mean he shouldn't be critcised when the same mistakes happen over and over again though. 

 

[philipl]

Just now, Ewood Ace said:

I'd say that Lambert is as good a manager as Mowbray but who like Mowbray his best years seem behind him although his did last longer. To me Bowyer is a very similar type of manager to Mowbray except Bowyer had far more success in the transfer market, both will probably keep you up and around mid table but their conservative approach will stop you progressing any further.

Sunderland will get promoted, Burton are overachieving by being in League 1 and Barnsley have yo-yoed between League 1 and the Championship for a while now. But let's be honest any half decent manager would have got us promoted with the squad and budget that we had. The only club of those 3 you can compare us to is Sunderland and I fully expect them to get promoted.

I think that there are managers available that are significantly better than Mowbray whether or not they would be appointed is another question. 

In other words, you would firmly stick with Mowbray in the circumstances and no you wouldn't fancy being a Barnsley or Burton supporter.  Let's see if Sunderland make it.

[RevidgeBlue]

11 minutes ago, philipl said:

Crazy stuff on this thread.

Boy you guys were slow to get going when there was real shit at this club but once goaded you never stop.

Yes PNE and Wigan were awful and cost Mowbray a huge amount of goodwill he needed for the rest of this run.

But to be debating whether he should get sacked after what he has achieved at Rovers is just bonkers.

Especially when you look at the recent list of managers:

Kean

Berg

Appleton

Bowyer

Lambert

Coyle (displacing a good as appointed Warnock let's not forget)

Questions for you guys:

- be serious, is anybody going to chose any of the above as better than Mowbray?

- you are treating promotion from League 1 as an easy peasy splash in a toddler's paddle pool. Swap places with any of Barnsley, Burton or Sunderland just now?

- Between 0 and 100%, your level of confidence, Venky's to select a significantly better manager than Mowbray? 

 

Some fair points and probably not time to pull the trigger yet but the possibility someone else worse might be appointed should never be a reason against making a change if things clearly aren't working.

Personally in the long term I just don't see us progressing much beyond the point where we are now under TM so for me the question is do we soldier on indefinitely in an attempt to preserve the status quo and cement ourselves as a perennial lower mid table championship outfit or at some point do we have to be slightly more ambitious and take a bit of a gamble?

If the latter, is there any real point in delaying it indefinitely?

[G Somerset Rover]

Unless I’m mistaken it’s literally one or two who have said he should be potted now as opposed to the majority of the forum? More accurate is to say most - on here at least - are in the camp of ‘he needs to start producing better results asap and show some signs of progression’ as opposed to sack him.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Gavlar Somerset Rover!

[Ewood Ace]

Just now, philipl said:

In other words, you would firmly stick with Mowbray in the circumstances and no you wouldn't fancy being a Barnsley or Burton supporter.  Let's see if Sunderland make it.

In other words no, you have made a complete misinterpretation of what I said. I firmly believe after yesterday's capitulation and Mowbray's comments that it is time for a change as he is not the man to sort out the fallings that have been clear since the end of last season.  

And why the hell are you comparing us with Burton Albion who until 10 years ago had never been in the football league, we are Blackburn Rovers have a bit of ambition rather than using Burton as a barometer. I'm sure Burton fans are delighted to be in League 1 considering 16 years ago they were in the Northern Premier and let's not forget they are also in a League Cup semi-final.