Mowbray’s Future

[HowieFive0]

Just now, Gavlar Somerset Rover! said:

Hardly like he has on Raya though! 

No true ..but as I said in a previous post the players get an easy ride and going through the motions  so f@ck um lets start naming names. 

If I had my way id wheel the manager and players into the Fox n Hounds after a game and let them hear some proper home truths 

[K-Hod]

Wasn't that bad what he said re Raya, in all honesty. 

I'd still be happier if Mowbray just came out and said 'I coach the team, it's my responsibility', when we lose. Just as he should rightly takes the credit if we win. 

[blueboy3333]

2 minutes ago, HowieFive0 said:

Maybe .. but even footballers from the Sunday League wouldn't keep making the same mistakes and lack of effort we see on some Saturdays !

I wouldnt blame them for lack of effort. The same mistakes over and over again they can certainly be blamed for. Which takes us back to the manager. He was happy with 'the group' and happy he didn't strengthen a month ago. Now he's hammering them. I think the problem may be Tony. 

[CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber]

22 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

Ha, probably. I think it's more the narrative that annoys me. 'Tony is a man of integrity and honesty' blah blah blah. No, he isn't, he's like every manager in the world, he'll portion blame wherever he can to deflect from his own mistakes/shortcomings. He's now adding in a bit of 'I won't get the credit if we win, but get the blame when we lose' self-pitying nonsense that they all come out with when they are getting hammered every week. 

The Tony as Holy Man bullshit is just that - bullshit.  Integrity, values, honesty, working-class, down the pit, good human beings, biscuits, build a club, AARRRRRGGGGHHHHHHH. JUST WIN SOME MATCHES YOU USELESS TWONK!!

 

Biscuits ?

I see your point and think it's a fair one. Perhaps it's the back drop that contributes to the love in; the absolute horse shit that's gone before him. 

He's just not got what it takes to get us out of this league for me. Some have realised it before others. But the fact that Venkys won't give him the boot regardless of results is the most depressing thing for me. 

[HowieFive0]

Just now, blueboy3333 said:

I wouldnt blame them for lack of effort. The same mistakes over and over again they can certainly be blamed for. Which takes us back to the manager. He was happy with 'the group' and happy he didn't strengthen a month ago. Now he's hammering them. I think the problem may be Tony. 

Hmm id question the lack of effort at times ..we only seem to put the effort in in the second half after we re usually behind and I presume a kick up the ass from the coaching staff!

But Mowbrays players so Mowbray carrys the can.

[tomphil]

27 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I think he is right to call the players out. In fairness he has done the complete opposite to a fault up to now. 

The players were on holiday camp with no fear. It's clear that happened. 

Mowbray needs to do somehting because the reality is he does not want to get fired, not a good look. That would leave him looking at league 1 again or maybe lower championship. So if he ended up there and got sacked again, his career resurgence since coming here would be back at square one. 

He needs to be ruthless to save his career at this level. Simple as. 

That's a fair point he has defended them in the past although often in a roundabout way and he went a bit over the top in dishing out new contracts like they'd won promotion to the Prem or something when all they'd really done was what they were being paid to do.

They owe him big time but a lot of it is down to him as well many of us said we desperately need a good defence and a solid keeper in the championship as we struggled last time but he didn't see that.  He's reaping what he's sown now in many ways but obviously he'll not acknowledge that in public but I hope privately he's kicking himself.

[BlackburnEnd75]

Just now, CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber said:

Biscuits ?

I see your point and think it's a fair one. Perhaps it's the back drop that contributes to the love in; the absolute horse shit that's gone before him. 

He's just not got what it takes to get us out of this league for me. Some have realised it before others. But the fact that Venkys won't give him the boot regardless of results is the most depressing thing for me. 

My only hope at this stage is that Mowbray has another tactical shift within him. After the Oldham defeat last season I was very sceptical that he could get us automatic promotion, but he tweaked things and we went on a long run that got us into the promotion race. I'm hoping for a strong end to the season where he learns some of the lesson of this last 20 game run. What I think we'll get is the same old same old.

 

[arbitro]

I really think Mowbray is beginning to feel some sustained pressure for the first time in two years. It's how he responds to that pressure that could well determine his future.

Despite him publicly shaming Raya I expect him to start tomorrow in a last chance saloon situation. The sentence below in his interview just give me that impression.

“It’s a difficult one, because the goalie going in has to get the job done and then try and stay in the team. If he doesn’t, and the goals still keep going in, when do you go back to your original goalie?” the boss added.

[DE.]

I don't think a manager publicly shaming a player can ever really be justified, barring exceptional circumstances.

Put it this way, if you were working for a company and made some mistakes, and your manager called you into a meeting and said you had to improve then you'd take it on board on work on it. If that manager then went to clients and said you'd been doing shit at your job, but he'd had a word and would get rid of you if you didn't improve, would that make you more motivated, or would you think your manager was an arsehole and not worth working for? 

I think most people would have the latter reaction, and whilst you can't compare football 1:1 with "normal" businesses it's still the same basic principle. Leaders don't inspire loyalty by publicly shaming those following them. 

[BlackburnEnd75]

10 minutes ago, arbitro said:

I really think Mowbray is beginning to feel some sustained pressure for the first time in two years. It's how he responds to that pressure that could well determine his future.

Despite him publicly shaming Raya I expect him to start tomorrow in a last chance saloon situation. The sentence below in his interview just give me that impression.

“It’s a difficult one, because the goalie going in has to get the job done and then try and stay in the team. If he doesn’t, and the goals still keep going in, when do you go back to your original goalie?” the boss added.

I found it interesting his comments about him needing to be more commanding. The way he said it made it sound like, our CB's are rubbish in the air so you've got to come claim more things. You look at the first goal on Saturday and there's no way Raya should be coming for that it's miles from his goal. But he's got it in his head that he has to come for that and gets himself stuck in no-mans land, if he stays on his line he saves that.

It comes back to the last two transfer windows again, the manager wants to drop Raya due to poor form but can't because he didn't think we needed competition for him. He asking Raya to come for everything because we didn't sign a centre half that can head a ball.

[Bigdoggsteel]

49 minutes ago, tomphil said:

That's a fair point he has defended them in the past although often in a roundabout way and he went a bit over the top in dishing out new contracts like they'd won promotion to the Prem or something when all they'd really done was what they were being paid to do.

They owe him big time but a lot of it is down to him as well many of us said we desperately need a good defence and a solid keeper in the championship as we struggled last time but he didn't see that.  He's reaping what he's sown now in many ways but obviously he'll not acknowledge that in public but I hope privately he's kicking himself.

Yes, indeed. They owe him big time for his loyalty and frankly they have let him down. I think that's why he is so frustrated. 

[Ewood Ace]

Same old Mowbray then not his fault, calling out a young player in Raya (like he has Nyambe previously) rather than experienced players who have been as bad if not worse. Mowbray is sounding like a man under increasing pressure as he knows that he is only 4 games from potentially having to do the honourable thing.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Ewood Ace

[Bigdoggsteel]

17 minutes ago, BlackburnEnd75 said:

I found it interesting his comments about him needing to be more commanding. The way he said it made it sound like, our CB's are rubbish in the air so you've got to come claim more things. You look at the first goal on Saturday and there's no way Raya should be coming for that it's miles from his goal. But he's got it in his head that he has to come for that and gets himself stuck in no-mans land, if he stays on his line he saves that.

It comes back to the last two transfer windows again, the manager wants to drop Raya due to poor form but can't because he didn't think we needed competition for him. He asking Raya to come for everything because we didn't sign a centre half that can head a ball.

He should be coming for more. I have said it before though and I will say it again, I think his height is a huge liability. He has a small frame and if you have a player like Aiden Flint competing with him, who will come out on top? Technically Raya should as he can use his arms, so say if Flint is 6 foot 3 and Raya is around 6 I think, then when you add Rayas arms he should be able to reach higher. The problem is that is Flint stands his ground and commands the space, Raya isn't going to move him. Most of the top keepers are at least foot 3. So it's not just height, but the strength and size that comes with being taller.

Did a quick google there. I can't find a single Premier league keeper who is less than 6 foot 3, apart from LLoris at Spurs who is 6 foot 2. 

He could get stronger of course, but would that mean sacrificing reflex speed? 

 

 

[DaveyB]

26 minutes ago, DE. said:

I don't think a manager publicly shaming a player can ever really be justified, barring exceptional circumstances.

Put it this way, if you were working for a company and made some mistakes, and your manager called you into a meeting and said you had to improve then you'd take it on board on work on it. If that manager then went to clients and said you'd been doing shit at your job, but he'd had a word and would get rid of you if you didn't improve, would that make you more motivated, or would you think your manager was an arsehole and not worth working for? 

I think most people would have the latter reaction, and whilst you can't compare football 1:1 with "normal" businesses it's still the same basic principle. Leaders don't inspire loyalty by publicly shaming those following them. 

The guy can't win. Get's asked a question about Raya in an interview - if he says that he's not concerned, that Raya is doing just fine, that everything will carry on as normal, then he'd be accused of being a clown who can't see what is obvious to everyone else.

But if, as he has done, he's honest and says that, yes we expect a better level of performance and that Raya's place is under pressure, then he is accused of publicly shaming a player to deflect from his own mistakes (which he admits to making in the interview btw, so a pretty lousy job of deflecting and hiding them).

You can start to understand why Mourinho would just sit and refuse to answer questions in his press conferences - we all want answers to questions, but whatever answer is given we want different ones.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Ewood Ace said:

Same old Mowbray then not his fault, calling out a young player in Raya (like he has Nyambe previously) rather than experienced players who have been as bad if not worse. Mowbray iis sounding like a man under increasing pressure as he knows that he is only 4 games from potentially having to do the honourable thing.

 I do recall him calling Mulgrew out although I don't think he named him , something like "players who should know better" 

So, ya, I think you are onto something there 

[Bigdoggsteel]

33 minutes ago, DE. said:

I don't think a manager publicly shaming a player can ever really be justified, barring exceptional circumstances.

Put it this way, if you were working for a company and made some mistakes, and your manager called you into a meeting and said you had to improve then you'd take it on board on work on it. If that manager then went to clients and said you'd been doing shit at your job, but he'd had a word and would get rid of you if you didn't improve, would that make you more motivated, or would you think your manager was an arsehole and not worth working for? 

I think most people would have the latter reaction, and whilst you can't compare football 1:1 with "normal" businesses it's still the same basic principle. Leaders don't inspire loyalty by publicly shaming those following them. 

I'd say he is probably blue in the face doing the private critiquing. We are on such an awful run, I think he had to do something different 

[Ewood Ace]

Just now, DaveyB said:

The guy can't win. Get's asked a question about Raya in an interview - if he says that he's not concerned, that Raya is doing just fine, that everything will carry on as normal, then he'd be accused of being a clown who can't see what is obvious to everyone else.

But if, as he has done, he's honest and says that, yes we expect a better level of performance and that Raya's place is under pressure, then he is accused of publicly shaming a player to deflect from his own mistakes (which he admits to making in the interview btw, so a pretty lousy job of deflecting and hiding them).

You can start to understand why Mourinho would just sit and refuse to answer questions in his press conferences - we all want answers to questions, but whatever answer is given we want different ones.

The trouble is that it is double standards he has this season called out 2 young players in Nyambe and Raya who are easy targets. Whereas a number of experienced players and big figures in the changing room have performed just as bad you could argue perhaps even worse yet they do not get called out in such a way.  

[Tom Stinny]

He should be slamming Dack for his clear lack of fitness and application since January or Mulgrew for the fact he can't head balls in the air or attack crosses yet score 25 yard free kicks and direct corners.

 

The effort and application stems from the manager. When he came out in January and didn't push to strengthen he set the tone to the rest of his staff and players that this season was over.

 

Now we've collapsed so spectacularly that we ARE in a relegation fight the season isn't over all of a sudden and you cannot pick up your performance levels at the flick of a switch.

 

Fair play. He did the job last year and up to Christmas and January was doing very well but I can't stand a manager that won't push and push to improve. He missed his opportunity in January and should rightly be slatted along with the players for how it's turned out.

 

You Mowbray lovers defend that if you can........ 

[DE.]

18 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I'd say he is probably blue in the face doing the private critiquing. We are on such an awful run, I think he had to do something different 

Quite possibly, I've always thought a manager who comes out and criticises players in public is getting desperate and is out of ideas. There's such a low upside to doing so that it's pretty much a last ditch resort when all else has failed. If it's gotten to that point it usually means the manager and those around him have failed in managing the club effectively and their competency should start being questioned. 

I've always been very consistent in my thoughts on publicly shaming players. I think it's nonsense when fans call for it and nonsense when managers do it. It appeals to the shaming culture that permeates modern society and to me it's pretty sad. I'm more than happy for things between players and managers to remain private. All the manager has to do is admit things haven't been good enough and he's working on sorting it out. That's it. No more detail required, especially not to the level he's going to with Raya. I just see no need for it, other than to satiate those who are desperate for others to be shamed and ridiculed. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

9 minutes ago, DE. said:

Quite possibly, I've always thought a manager who comes out and criticises players in public is getting desperate and is out of ideas. There's such a low upside to doing so that it's pretty much a last ditch resort when all else has failed. If it's gotten to that point it usually means the manager and those around him have failed in managing the club effectively and their competency should start being questioned. 

I've always been very consistent in my thoughts on publicly shaming players. I think it's nonsense when fans call for it and nonsense when managers do it. It appeals to the shaming culture that permeates modern society and to me it's pretty sad. I'm more than happy for things between players and managers to remain private. All the manager has to do is admit things haven't been good enough and he's working on sorting it out. That's it. No more detail required, especially not to the level he's going to with Raya. I just see no need for it, other than to satiate those who are desperate for others to be shamed and ridiculed. 

Ya, that is true. I may be mistaken here, but isn't it something people say about Fergie that he would never, ever publicly criticize a player 

I personally think good managers take the blame on themselves too. I recall Wagner doing it a lot at Huddersfield. Klopp does it a bit(although he has shown glimpses of Steve Kean type behavior too in blaming the wind) and Pep certainly does it a lot. I suppose as in all walks of life the better you are doing and the more comfortable you are, the easier it is to be self critical publicly. Mowbray is on thin ice career wise. If he comes out and days 2 "ya , I did X and Y wrong" then he ends up getting sacked anyway. His comments could be used as a stick to beat him when going for another job. He was on the scrap heap for a long time. He certainly doesn't want to end up back there. 

At least I hope that's whats behind his behavior and not just that he isn't aware of his failings. 

[BlackburnEnd75]

23 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

He should be coming for more. I have said it before though and I will say it again, I think his height is a huge liability. He has a small frame and if you have a player like Aiden Flint competing with him, who will come out on top? Technically Raya should as he can use his arms, so say if Flint is 6 foot 3 and Raya is around 6 I think, then when you add Rayas arms he should be able to reach higher. The problem is that is Flint stands his ground and commands the space, Raya isn't going to move him. Most of the top keepers are at least foot 3. So it's not just height, but the strength and size that comes with being taller.

Did a quick google there. I can't find a single Premier league keeper who is less than 6 foot 3, apart from LLoris at Spurs who is 6 foot 2. 

He could get stronger of course, but would that mean sacrificing reflex speed? 

 

 

But that 1st goal against Rotherham, the lads made a decision before the ball has been thrown to come for it. He's started coming out realised that he shouldn't be coming for that then gets caught out back peddling. That throw in to the box he shouldn't be coming for at all, theres no way the opposition should be getting a clean header like that in from a long throw.

For me the problem is Raya making poor decisions of when to come and when to stay examples being the birmingham (H) penalty, Rotherham (A), Brentford (A).  I actually think that he's much improved when he does come for things than he was at the start of last season. 

Raya with his build and lack of height is never going to able to come through a crowd of players on the penalty spot, so why are we asking to do that. We're setting him up to fail, I think if we had at least one centre back who was dominant in the air we wouldn't be asking him to do this.

If Mowbray didn't or doesn't like that Raya can't do this then he should've got a bigger keeper to challenge him.

My main gripe with Raya is his kicking. He should've become more consistent by now

[Bigdoggsteel]

2 minutes ago, BlackburnEnd75 said:

But that 1st goal against Rotherham, the lads made a decision before the ball has been thrown to come for it. He's started coming out realised that he shouldn't be coming for that then gets caught out back peddling. That throw in to the box he shouldn't be coming for at all, theres no way the opposition should be getting a clean header like that in from a long throw.

For me the problem is Raya making poor decisions of when to come and when to stay examples being the birmingham (H) penalty, Rotherham (A), Brentford (A).  I actually think that he's much improved when he does come for things than he was at the start of last season. 

Raya with his build and lack of height is never going to able to come through a crowd of players on the penalty spot, so why are we asking to do that. We're setting him up to fail, I think if we had at least one centre back who was dominant in the air we wouldn't be asking him to do this.

If Mowbray didn't or doesn't like that Raya can't do this then he should've got a bigger keeper to challenge him.

My main gripe with Raya is his kicking. He should've become more consistent by now

No doubt we should not have conceded that first goal against Rotherham. It was pathetic. I wouldn't expect Raya to have came for that, no. He was flat footed though, as you shouldn't be letting in a header like that. Their player did well, but you can't generate huge power on a header from a throw 

[DE.]

14 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Ya, that is true. I may be mistaken here, but isn't it something people say about Fergie that he would never, ever publicly criticize a player 

I personally think good managers take the blame on themselves too. I recall Wagner doing it a lot at Huddersfield. Klopp does it a bit(although he has shown glimpses of Steve Kean type behavior too in blaming the wind) and Pep certainly does it a lot. I suppose as in all walks of life the better you are doing and the more comfortable you are, the easier it is to be self critical publicly. Mowbray is on thin ice career wise. If he comes out and days 2 "ya , I did X and Y wrong" then he ends up getting sacked anyway. His comments could be used as a stick to beat him when going for another job. He was on the scrap heap for a long time. He certainly doesn't want to end up back there. 

At least I hope that's whats behind his behavior and not just that he isn't aware of his failings. 

Ferguson is the best example, but in the modern game especially criticising players in public is usually tantamount to career suicide. You might get away with it in L1 and below, but at PL and Championship level - rightly or wrongly - managers are walking a tightrope when they begin pointing fingers at the players and avoid taking their share of the blame. The "us and them" mentality should not be the manager & fans vs the players. That is obviously not going to end well for the manager. 

The Q&A seemed to suggest Tony knows exactly where the problems are, but whether he thinks he's at fault for those failings? Not sure. 

[AllRoverAsia]

6 minutes ago, BlackburnEnd75 said:

But that 1st goal against Rotherham, the lads made a decision before the ball has been thrown to come for it. He's started coming out realised that he shouldn't be coming for that then gets caught out back peddling. That throw in to the box he shouldn't be coming for at all, theres no way the opposition should be getting a clean header like that in from a long throw.

For me the problem is Raya making poor decisions of when to come and when to stay examples being the birmingham (H) penalty, Rotherham (A), Brentford (A).  I actually think that he's much improved when he does come for things than he was at the start of last season. 

Raya with his build and lack of height is never going to able to come through a crowd of players on the penalty spot, so why are we asking to do that. We're setting him up to fail, I think if we had at least one centre back who was dominant in the air we wouldn't be asking him to do this.

If Mowbray didn't or doesn't like that Raya can't do this then he should've got a bigger keeper to challenge him.

My main gripe with Raya is his kicking. He should've become more consistent by now

Most of Raya's faults would be cured by a top goal keeping coach.  He's still young so time for them to be coached out before they become ingrained. 

Can't cure lack of real height though. 

[roversfan99]

There is perhaps far too much over-analysis of Mowbrays words but ultimately I dont hold much credence towards what a manager says, even when we was winning every week in League 1 and folk blew smoke up his backside about his "refreshing honesty."

Ultimately he has brought on such nit picking within his interviews towards what HIS team is doing on the pitch. Whether he chooses to protect and defend his players at all costs or call them out for the mistakes is his personal choice but ultimately it all boils down to his management. With Raya, we are in a position where he is making big errors on an almost weekly basis but id still be unsure whether to change simply due to a lack of competent alternative, Leutweiler has barely played football (even in the cups he doesnt play) in a good few years and his CV is incredibly underwhelming. The issue is not what Mowbray is saying about it, its asking whether hes actually developing under the current setup (questions have been asked about the goalkeeping coach) and also why has Mowbray not seen fit yet to bring in a more established and competent goalkeeper.

Likewise with the defence, ultimately he can call them out all he wants but they simply are neither good enough individually defensively nor well organised enough and that is the issue. He can say "they need to feel it in their bellies" and question their bravery but its HIS choice to have signed a midfielder to try and convert into a centre back rather than just signing a defender. Hes been here more than long enough and given more than enough resources (which he has chosen to use almost exclusively on attacking players) for me to look at the situation and not give a shit what rubbish he is saying in the media, or where he is apportioning the blame elsewhere, but judge him on what I see from HIS team on the pitch.

Edited March 8, 2019 by roversfan99