The mysterious case of Joe Rothwell.

[Bbrovers2288]

3 hours ago, BankEnd Rover said:

Just a question...Would you have Rothwell in your Starting 11? Would you play Armstrong over Rothwell? 

Refer back to my earlier post- I stated that he should be playing more and get as much time as armstrong has 

[philipl]

Putting in a strong word for Rothwell.

1) Mowbray 100% wrong and without attenuating circumstances not to play Joe in the hole behind Graham yesterday

2) Slotting Armstrong in as a second striker might have excused him but putting Bennett into Dack' s slot was inexcusable. Even ifollow commentators assumed Rothwell was in the Dack position and had to correct themselves incredulously- yes Mowbray's decision was that bad.

3) Rothwell is being criticised for not getting forward but why go forwards when Bennett will reliably lose possession and neither Smallwood nor Evans are looking up while a ball played from the back will be spotted going over head at the height of a 747.

4) Rothwell's boss is like a perpetually stuck record wittering about Rothwell's defensive duties being ignored. FFS why go forward when you know the ball won't come and the boss will slag you off for it?

 

Joe is in a no win bind and we are all losers for it. 

[rog of the rovers]

Whilst not writing him off yet by any means, I thought he looked distinctly average yesterday.

Didn't take his opportunity to shine and what was perplexing to me was his lack of end product, I can clearly think of two clear chances in the first half which lead to a tame effort on goal and a poor final ball.

Also, his first touch always seemed to be 5 yards in front of him!!

On glimpses this season and yesterday, he looks a million dollars, but I remain unconvinced.

[Mattyblue]

Personally don’t think he’s a wide man, looked most effective in central areas.

He does seem to flatter to deceive, but give him a run of games.

[tomphil]

9 hours ago, philipl said:

Putting in a strong word for Rothwell.

1) Mowbray 100% wrong and without attenuating circumstances not to play Joe in the hole behind Graham yesterday

2) Slotting Armstrong in as a second striker might have excused him but putting Bennett into Dack' s slot was inexcusable. Even ifollow commentators assumed Rothwell was in the Dack position and had to correct themselves incredulously- yes Mowbray's decision was that bad.

3) Rothwell is being criticised for not getting forward but why go forwards when Bennett will reliably lose possession and neither Smallwood nor Evans are looking up while a ball played from the back will be spotted going over head at the height of a 747.

4) Rothwell's boss is like a perpetually stuck record wittering about Rothwell's defensive duties being ignored. FFS why go forward when you know the ball won't come and the boss will slag you off for it?

 

Joe is in a no win bind and we are all losers for it. 

Correct .

When you buy a player supposedly to cover Dack in that role then don't play him there when the opportunity arises it's no wonder many questions get asked.

Can only assume he wanted Bennett there to close down and graft a bit more in an effort to defend from the front but imo maybe if there wasn't such a hole in midfield because of starting two deep lying defensive mids it would allow whoever is in that position a bit more freedom to have a go knowing someone will put a foot in on the halfway line on the occasions they inevitably lose the ball.  And breathe.......

[CD_93]

Just now, tomphil said:

Correct .

When you buy a player supposedly to cover Dack in that role then don't play him there when the opportunity arises it's no wonder many questions get asked.

As they were of Kasey "not defensive enough" Palmer.

[m1st]

I've skimmed through this thread, so apologies if I'm repeating what others have said.

When we signed Charlie Mulgrew, I asked a Geordie friend exiled in Glasgow what Mulgrew's position was. "Midfielder", I was told.

Similarly with Darragh Lenihan; he had the potential to be a good midfielder for Rovers - and the Republic of Ireland - for years to come.

But no; both are corcered into service for Rovers as central defenders. Each of them does such a satisfactory job for us that each gets selected for his country in those positions.

BUT

Can we please, please, please use this summer's transfer window to acquire central defenders of Championship standard?

Otherwise, - and as fan in whose veins the blood runs blue and white, I fear that most of next season will pan out like the 2nd half of this season and we'll be a lot closer to the Championship relegation zone this time next year than we are at present.

[tomphil]

Trouble is at Rovers for anyone coming through or coming in like that the centre midfield berths are spoken for by a lower end lightweight Championship plodder who also gets selected for his country and often saves his rare good games for them.  And whoever can do the things he can't like run around a lot and tackle, it's been that way since Evans pitched up he's just had a change of dance partner.

If Travis was 6 ft he'd be slotted in at centre half or more likely out on loan somewhere and I think as long as this manager is here and more so as long as Evans is here Travis will suffer a similar fate as say Alan Judge for example.

So annoying when managers miss a trick that's staring them in the face.

[47er]

I think TM has been blinded by his success in Div 1 last season. He promised the guys who stuck with us after relegation that he would stick with them.

And he has---even though it was obvious some months ago that they were not good enough. Worse he's extended contacts so access to first team places is still bunged up.

We run the risk of losing our best players and our young players who will soon have to think of a future elsewhere.

We could lose the players who can  take us forward and retain the ones who can't.

[roversfan99]

12 hours ago, m1st said:

I've skimmed through this thread, so apologies if I'm repeating what others have said.

When we signed Charlie Mulgrew, I asked a Geordie friend exiled in Glasgow what Mulgrew's position was. "Midfielder", I was told.

Similarly with Darragh Lenihan; he had the potential to be a good midfielder for Rovers - and the Republic of Ireland - for years to come.

But no; both are corcered into service for Rovers as central defenders. Each of them does such a satisfactory job for us that each gets selected for his country in those positions.

BUT

Can we please, please, please use this summer's transfer window to acquire central defenders of Championship standard?

Otherwise, - and as fan in whose veins the blood runs blue and white, I fear that most of next season will pan out like the 2nd half of this season and we'll be a lot closer to the Championship relegation zone this time next year than we are at present.

Theres no way that Lenihan is a central midfielder. All of his attributes point to being a centre back, indeed he didnt look much cop when he broke through in midfield and indeed he seemed not much difference to the crap (Lowe, Akpan etc) that we already had in there. His ability on the ball leaves a lot to be desired even from centre back, on Saturday alone he kicked the ball straight out of play numerous times. He does however bring a bravery, an aeriel ability and also a bit of athleticism and whilst I think he is a tad overrated by fans and Mowbray alike because he is our only old fashioned centre back, there is something to work with there 

With Mulgrew, last year he was outstanding from centre back and not only his set pieces. As it does with anyone age seems to have really caught up with him badly this season, hes riddled with injuries even worse by before and he looks so well off the pace. 

We definitely need a couple of centre backs in the summer, definitely agree with you on that.

[BlackburnEnd75]

34 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Theres no way that Lenihan is a central midfielder. All of his attributes point to being a centre back, indeed he didnt look much cop when he broke through in midfield and indeed he seemed not much difference to the crap (Lowe, Akpan etc) that we already had in there. His ability on the ball leaves a lot to be desired even from centre back, on Saturday alone he kicked the ball straight out of play numerous times. He does however bring a bravery, an aeriel ability and also a bit of athleticism and whilst I think he is a tad overrated by fans and Mowbray alike because he is our only old fashioned centre back, there is something to work with there 

With Mulgrew, last year he was outstanding from centre back and not only his set pieces. As it does with anyone age seems to have really caught up with him badly this season, hes riddled with injuries even worse by before and he looks so well off the pace. 

We definitely need a couple of centre backs in the summer, definitely agree with you on that.

Agree on Lenihan, his ability on the ball means he's no way a centre mid. Interestingly I was told that they had to work quite hard to convince Lenihan that his future was as a centre back, he really wanted to be a Roy Keane type midfielder.

Mulgrew's gone at this level which is a real shame. That 2 and half year contract extension isn't look great right now.

On Rothwell, I thought he started brightly and faded as the game went on. I actually don't think 10 is his best position, think i've read him say he likes to play left of a three in midfield so he can drive at people. Even so when you've been criticising someone for not contributing defensively then that was a perfect opportunity to play him as a 10. It was also a good chance to play Armstrong up front in his actual position who had yet another ineffectual game, he's another i feel sorry for, he;s clearly not suited to getting the ball from deep and trying to open people up. Playing Bennett as a 10 was simply baffling, he offered nothing at all to open them up and was nearly as bad at right back where he put is some really poor crosses.

I've lost all faith in Mowbray. It's a shame as I genuinely wanted him to do well and now I can;t see him turning this around.

 

 

[bluebruce]

5 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Theres no way that Lenihan is a central midfielder. All of his attributes point to being a centre back, indeed he didnt look much cop when he broke through in midfield and indeed he seemed not much difference to the crap (Lowe, Akpan etc) that we already had in there. His ability on the ball leaves a lot to be desired even from centre back, on Saturday alone he kicked the ball straight out of play numerous times. He does however bring a bravery, an aeriel ability and also a bit of athleticism and whilst I think he is a tad overrated by fans and Mowbray alike because he is our only old fashioned centre back, there is something to work with there 

With Mulgrew, last year he was outstanding from centre back and not only his set pieces. As it does with anyone age seems to have really caught up with him badly this season, hes riddled with injuries even worse by before and he looks so well off the pace. 

We definitely need a couple of centre backs in the summer, definitely agree with you on that.

I didn't actually think Mulgrew looked a particularly great defender at League One level to be honest. He had his moments, but the goals definitely papered over the cracks even then. The cracks are just bigger now, plus as you say he's a year older. I've generally felt his biggest problem is a tendency to go walkabouts positionally though at the wrong moments, which age should improve not worsen. Pace is only his second biggest problem for me.

[blueboy3333]

22 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

With Mulgrew, last year he was outstanding from centre back and not only his set pieces. 

He is a quality footballer, he is not a good defender. He's actually become a very poor defender. His poor positioning, lack of pace to recover and then badly-judged sliding tackle to give away a penalty on Saturday just about sums him up. 

 

20 hours ago, BlackburnEnd75 said:

20 hours ago, BlackburnEnd75 said:

 

Agree on Lenihan, his ability on the ball means he's no way a centre mid.nterestingly I was told that they had to work quite hard to convince Lenihan that his future was as a centre back, he really wanted to be a Roy Keane type midfielder.

No reason why he can't be. He's told to play raking 60 yard diagonals to Graham, that's our only tactic. If you had Roy Keane doing that every week he'd not look very good. Lenihan is mobile, hard as nails, never loses a 50-50 and is capable of passing the ball. Evans and Smallwood do nothing that Lenihan couldn't do, and I'd suggest he would protect the back four a lot better than Evans and Smallwood simply because he is mobile. 

The 'Lenihan isn't a great footballer' argument is overblown. Mowbray likes footballing CB's and Lenihan is a decent footballer. If two new CB's are signed in the summer and we go to one DM instead of two I would give Lenihan a run of games there. He covers the ground which is what you need in that position. 

[roversfan99]

55 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

He is a quality footballer, he is not a good defender. He's actually become a very poor defender. His poor positioning, lack of pace to recover and then badly-judged sliding tackle to give away a penalty on Saturday just about sums him up. 

 

No reason why he can't be. He's told to play raking 60 yard diagonals to Graham, that's our only tactic. If you had Roy Keane doing that every week he'd not look very good. Lenihan is mobile, hard as nails, never loses a 50-50 and is capable of passing the ball. Evans and Smallwood do nothing that Lenihan couldn't do, and I'd suggest he would protect the back four a lot better than Evans and Smallwood simply because he is mobile. 

The 'Lenihan isn't a great footballer' argument is overblown. Mowbray likes footballing CB's and Lenihan is a decent footballer. If two new CB's are signed in the summer and we go to one DM instead of two I would give Lenihan a run of games there. He covers the ground which is what you need in that position. 

I agree now that Mulgrew is a poor defender but I wouldnt have last season, you could argue that maybe it was the poor standard that was making him look better and im sure theres an element of truth in that but I recall a number of games where he stood up to high balls and headed them away. My own hypothesis is that simply Mulgrews body is no longer capable of Championship centre back responsibilities, he seems (worse than ever) unable to get a clear run without an injury and when he does play he looks particularly lethargic.

I think you are being very kind to suggest that Lenihan is a good technical footballer, forgetting the often skewed diagonals he often miscues much simpler passes straight out of play, quite a few times on Saturday alone he sliced not particularly difficult passes out of play under little pressure.

That being said, there are plenty of assets that you touch on that Lenihan does have, even though I think his competence/ability has been exaggerated somewhat by manager and supporters are like simply because he is unique in being a defender that actually enjoys defending. He can often be rash and I stand by questioning him technically but he is powerful, has a bit of speed, is brave and will put his head on everything, a skillset far more in tune with a centre back than a central midfielder.

When he broke through as a midfielder he didnt stand out and that was competing with crap like Lowe and Akpan. Lenihans main asset for me is his aeriel ability, athleticism alone doesnt make a good midfielder (see Bennett, Elliott) and his bravery is best at the heart of our defence.

[AAK]

38 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I agree now that Mulgrew is a poor defender but I wouldnt have last season, you could argue that maybe it was the poor standard that was making him look better and im sure theres an element of truth in that but I recall a number of games where he stood up to high balls and headed them away. My own hypothesis is that simply Mulgrews body is no longer capable of Championship centre back responsibilities, he seems (worse than ever) unable to get a clear run without an injury and when he does play he looks particularly lethargic.

I think you are being very kind to suggest that Lenihan is a good technical footballer, forgetting the often skewed diagonals he often miscues much simpler passes straight out of play, quite a few times on Saturday alone he sliced not particularly difficult passes out of play under little pressure.

That being said, there are plenty of assets that you touch on that Lenihan does have, even though I think his competence/ability has been exaggerated somewhat by manager and supporters are like simply because he is unique in being a defender that actually enjoys defending. He can often be rash and I stand by questioning him technically but he is powerful, has a bit of speed, is brave and will put his head on everything, a skillset far more in tune with a centre back than a central midfielder.

When he broke through as a midfielder he didnt stand out and that was competing with crap like Lowe and Akpan. Lenihans main asset for me is his aeriel ability, athleticism alone doesnt make a good midfielder (see Bennett, Elliott) and his bravery is best at the heart of our defence.

This was all said at the begining of the season about mulgrew but was shot down by his followers of merry men. He wasnt good enough 2 seasons ago so why would he be now. Should have been replaced.

[JamieUK]

I'd give Mulgrew a go at left back. Can't be any worse than Bell and keeps him in the team for set pieces...

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 hour ago, JamieUK said:

I'd give Mulgrew a go at left back. Can't be any worse than Bell and keeps him in the team for set pieces...

No. A quick winger would destroy him and I don't think he would get up and down as much as Bell. 

[47er]

1 hour ago, JamieUK said:

I'd give Mulgrew a go at left back. Can't be any worse than Bell and keeps him in the team for set pieces...

He's too slow?

[bluebruce]

3 hours ago, JamieUK said:

I'd give Mulgrew a go at left back. Can't be any worse than Bell and keeps him in the team for set pieces...

He could be much worse than Bell there. It's not his position and he's athletically derelict.

[iSeeRed]

Rothwell were wonderful tonight and he's finally off the mark with that goal. Surely Mowbray has to give him a run in the starting 11 now.

[blueboy3333]

10 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

No. A quick winger would destroy him

I'd destroy him and I've got gout. 

[DE.]

Needs to start every match from now until the end of the season. Similarly Smallwood and Evans need to disappear. I don't care if Reed isn't going to be here next season, we're still better off playing him alongside Travis. 

[RevidgeBlue]

Just now, DE. said:

Needs to start every match from now until the end of the season. Similarly Smallwood and Evans need to disappear. I don't care if Reed isn't going to be here next season, we're still better off playing him alongside Travis. 

x 1000.

[JacknOry]

6 hours ago, DE. said:

Needs to start every match from now until the end of the season. Similarly Smallwood and Evans need to disappear. I don't care if Reed isn't going to be here next season, we're still better off playing him alongside Travis. 

Reed will be gone which begs the question of who do we put alongside Travis when he does. I'd try Rodwell there. 

[Swanson]

Is Rothwell quicker than Arma? Seems really fast on the pitch yesterday.