Mowbray: Stay or go?

[unsall]

4 hours ago, Parsonblue said:

The summer will be the turning point in terms of who he brings in.  If he can get the players we need, provided money is made available to sign half-a-dozen genuine starters, then I still believe he can take us forward.  As I've said before, he's made the same mistake as Bob Saxton did towards the end of his time at Ewood - being too loyal to players who have served the club well in the past.  I think this season, particularly since Christmas, has shown that a number of players are really struggling at this level and others who we thought might thrive at this level simply haven't been able to sustain early season form.   

Hopes of selling Dack for £20m to finance a rebuilding operation are long gone so once again it will come down to the owners finding the funds.

At the moment I'm more than happy for Mowbray to take us into next season and I honestly believe that sacking him now would be a serious mistake.

Yep I’m with you,would be madness to get rid now,let him see if the owners back him in the summer, and try and get the players we need.

[roversfan99]

Just now, unsall said:

Yep I’m with you,would be madness to get rid now,let him see if the owners back him in the summer, and try and get the players we need.

Wasnt that the plan last summer when he spent 10m and didnt improve the first team?

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I thought I'd posted earlier that I'd sack Mowbray and Venus tomorrow morning and give Johnno the job for the next 7 games. If he can't improve things look for a new manager ASAP. Of course I'm talking as though we were being run by sentient people who understand football. As we aren't I may as well save my breath. Anybody know where my earlier post went to ?

[Paul Mani]

17 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Dont understand how Graham is one of the players to be ruthless with. He has been our best player this season.

Yeah absolutely. The ruthlessness I’m talking about is based on my belief that if we are going to kick on then we need to buy first choice players in their positions. 

Nothing personal to Graham who has been fantastic but cannot go on forever.

[DE.]

Ridiculous to suggest that's it's madness or insanity to think about removing a manager who's presided over 4 points of the last 30 available and spunked our transfer budget this season on ineffective players. Promotion last season was the minimum expectation considering we were by far outspending every other team in transfer fees and wages. He also failed in his initial remit to keep us up in 16/17. I don't fully blame him for that, but Mowbray has achieved no more here than Bowyer, who now manages Bradford in League 1. 

I understand liking the guy on a personal level, but as a manager he is, imo anyway,  grossly overrated on the back of promotion out of a division we should never have been in. We aren't talking about sacking Dalglish or Mark Hughes here. 

[Stuart]

59 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

 

Stay.

I think in fairness to Mowbray, he’s stayed loyal to the lads who got us up. I’ve no real issue with that and there’s plenty of examples of teams who’ve drastically changed after promotion and ended up going down having spent a fortune. Fulham being the most recent one.

The main thing now is that he accepts that he’s given the lads a chance and that he’s prepared to be ruthless with the likes of Raya, Mulgrew, Bell, Evans and Graham in terms of bringing good players in to replace them.

I think he needs to follow this up by letting go of the surplus players who never complain (Conways, Williams, Smallwood etc). Getting rid of his comfort blanket. 

We need to go up sharpish at the rate we’re burning money. I’m a massive Mowbray fan but I feel this summer will define his reign one way or the other.

I agreed with much of that. What grinds my gears though is that when none of those necessary actions are carried out he will still get a free pass because....

....well who are Venkys likely to appoint instead?

[RevidgeBlue]

Go go go, now, before he does any more damage.

For me needs to be gone tomorrow and the planning needs to start for next season and beyond.

I don't expect this to happen, I expect us to limp on oblivious with the old has beens until the end of the season as if everything is perfectly ok.

TM will then talk a good game about bringing in a number of first team starters in summer but in reality he will tinker round the edges once again with the excuse being made that proven Championship players are very expensive. We'll start next season with basically the same eleven as we have now. Our hand will then be forced in or around December time  with our League position so precarious and the squad in such a state that the next person coming in will be very hard pushed to save us. (In much the same way Mowbray couldn't)

[RevidgeBlue]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

Yeah absolutely. The ruthlessness I’m talking about is based on my belief that if we are going to kick on then we need to buy first choice players in their positions. 

Nothing personal to Graham who has been fantastic but cannot go on forever.

Agreed. The guy is virtually finished. Plus we have to hoof the ball high and long with him in the team making us extremely one dimensional.

Whilst our defence is cack, that should theoretically be relatively easy and nexpensive to sort out if whoever is in charge has the will to do so. The single most important factor on how well we do next season imo will be how good the striker is who comes in to replace Graham as main man because top strikers cost the big money.

[jim mk2]

The writing is on the wall. 

If Mowbray is allowed to stay for a large chunk of next season and the squad is largely the same, which is the most likely scenario, we will go down.

I think it's that simple.

[RevidgeBlue]

5 hours ago, Parsonblue said:

As I've said before, he's made the same mistake as Bob Saxton did towards the end of his time at Ewood - being too loyal to players who have served the club well in the past.  

Hopes of selling Dack for £20m to finance a rebuilding operation are long gone 

 

Why then, having made such a fundamental and obvious mistake   does he deserve the chance to carry on? We hung onto Bobby Saxton for way too long out of a misguided sense of loyalty after he had completely lost the plot as well.

Also have to disagree on Dack. "Hopes" of a sale to refinance tbe squad is completely the wrong way to look at it imo.  If interest has indeed cooled from elsewhere in a big money move move for him whilst he has been craning his neck to watch tbe ball being launched in the general direction of the statuesque Graham..........then perhaps every cloud has a silver lining.

Edited March 31, 2019 by RevidgeBlue

[blueboy3333]

4 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Agreed. The guy is virtually finished. 

Chaddy said something similar. He's been our top scorer ever since. 

[roversfan99]

21 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Yeah absolutely. The ruthlessness I’m talking about is based on my belief that if we are going to kick on then we need to buy first choice players in their positions. 

Nothing personal to Graham who has been fantastic but cannot go on forever.

If you are looking at a potential starting 11 for next season, youd probably struggle to name half of one from the current squad. Graham is definitely one that has proved his ability at this level. We definitely need an alternative but Graham is still a big player for us.

And its a myth (one especially peddled by RevidgeBlue whose agenda against him is crazy) that our current tactics are to the benefit of Graham. We are lucky that he is able to do as well as anyone reasonably could with such dire service by limited players and set up by a manager with a seemingly limited tactical skillset and a preference for very limited players such as Bennett and Smallwood.

[Paul Mani]

17 minutes ago, Stuart said:

I agreed with much of that. What grinds my gears though is that when none of those necessary actions are carried out he will still get a free pass because....

....well who are Venkys likely to appoint instead?

He won’t get a free pass from me. I think he’s done a good job in difficult circumstances. I have even credited him for being loyal to the group. But we now need ready made replacements for several first team players. 

 

11 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Agreed. The guy is virtually finished. Plus we have to hoof the ball high and long with him in the team making us extremely one dimensional.

Whilst our defence is cack, that should theoretically be relatively easy and nexpensive to sort out if whoever is in charge has the will to do so. The single most important factor on how well we do next season imo will be how good the striker is who comes in to replace Graham as main man because top strikers cost the big money.

We’ve got to replace him though. Whichever way you look at it.

 

Managers always get a defining moment (season) and this is Mowbrays. I hope he does what he needs to. Thoroughly decent man. Reminds me a lot of Bowyer. His defining season was THAT year he had Cairney, Hanley, Duffy, Rhodes. Gestede etc....he blew it and never recovered. 

[Paul Mani]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

If you are looking at a potential starting 11 for next season, youd probably struggle to name half of one from the current squad. Graham is definitely one that has proved his ability at this level. We definitely need an alternative but Graham is still a big player for us.

And its a myth (one especially peddled by RevidgeBlue whose agenda against him is crazy) that our current tactics are to the benefit of Graham. We are lucky that he is able to do as well as anyone reasonably could with such dire service by limited players and set up by a manager with a seemingly limited tactical skillset and a preference for very limited players such as Bennett and Smallwood.

I agree with all of the superlatives about Graham. But if we have any ambition, then Danny Graham HAS to be the understudy to our main man. Imo 

[Ewood Ace]

Graham has undoubtedly been our best player this season but he will be 34 by the start next season, so we really need to be bringing in someone to compete with him and to take over from him by the end of next season.

[RevidgeBlue]

7 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

I agree with all of the superlatives about Graham. But if we have any ambition, then Danny Graham HAS to be the understudy to our main man. Imo 

Again correct. With Graham in the side at this level we've been nearly relegated, relegated and probably not that far off being relegated by season end.

Not all his fault of course but nevertheless  to suggest he is the answer up front if we want to push on is madness. Most importantly age and fitness are against him he is rapidly on the decline and nowhere near as mobile as he was when he first joined us on loan under Lambert.

[RevidgeBlue]

28 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

Chaddy said something similar. He's been our top scorer ever since. 

It's all relative though. Top scorer in a team that only has three players who can find the net and who has managed just four points out of thirty might not be as impressive as it sounds.

[West Yorks Rover]

I voted 10 mins ago but the numbers didn't seem to move, so I tried again and nothing again.

I had just woken from a snooze on the settee, so It could be me, but I don't think so.

[West Yorks Rover]

Just now, West Yorks Rover said:

I voted 10 mins ago but the numbers didn't seem to move, so I tried again and nothing again.

I had just woken from a snooze on the settee, so It could be me, but I don't think so.

Ah it's moved to 39 now, unless someone else has just voted ?

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

I just hope our great benefactors supply the coin needed........

[DE.]

19 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

It's all relative though. Top scorer in a team that only has three players who can find the net and who has managed just four points out of thirty might not be as impressive as it sounds.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/championship/top-scorers

Only just behind the likes of Grabban, McBurnie and Roofe, so he's doing fine. Graham is not the problem at this point in time, although age will eventually catch up with him. If we're talking about players whose ages have caught up with them then Mulgrew and Conway are far ahead of Graham I'm afraid.

[RevidgeBlue]

Just now, DE. said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/championship/top-scorers

Only just behind the likes of Grabban, McBurnie and Roofe, so he's doing fine. Graham is not the problem at this point in time, although age will eventually catch up with him. If we're talking about players whose ages have caught up with them then Mulgrew and Conway are far ahead of Graham I'm afraid.

With the aid of several penalties Graham has scored more than Assombalonga seemingly but you could see from the Boro home game that anyone thinking there is any comparison at all between the two needs to give their head a wobble.

Also interesting by way of comparison that  I would say Dack has had a pretty poor season overall yet is only one goal behind.

[DE.]

Just now, RevidgeBlue said:

With the aid of several penalties Graham has scored more than Assombalonga seemingly but you could see from the Boro home game that anyone thinking there is any comparison at all between the two needs to give their head a wobble.

Also interesting by way of comparison that  I would say Dack has had a pretty poor season overall yet is only one goal behind.

Dack has had periods of poor form but it's frankly impressive that a player like him is able to have any sustained kind of form playing in Mowbray's system. I'd say Dack has been up and down this season, some good and some bad. His first season at a level higher than League 1 so overall I'd actually say decent enough. 

Graham has only scored two penalties this season hasn't he? So if you want to take that away then fine (although penalties aren't guaranteed goals, you still have to score them), but it's still 11 goals to Assombalgona's 10.  That said they are two totally different players so comparing them would be a bit strange, especially as Assombalonga often plays out wide. 

Rhodes' goals were similarly dismissed as for some he should have somehow been better, despite a striker's main priority being goalscoring. 

My issue with Graham has nothing to do with his performances, it's more to do with how we operate as a team with him in it. The lazy hoof ball up the DG has become a staple of our game and may only stop when we no longer have such a good target man up front. Whether Mowbray can operate with a different type of striker and system is something I have my doubts over though.

[blueboy3333]

2 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

It's all relative though. Top scorer in a team that only has three players who can find the net and who has managed just four points out of thirty might not be as impressive as it sounds.

Exactly, Top scorer in a team that creates very little from open play. Graham has been superb for Rovers over the last two seasons. Only an idiot would think otherwise. 

[Stuart]

2 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Go go go, now, before he does any more damage.

For me needs to be gone tomorrow and the planning needs to start for next season and beyond.

I don't expect this to happen, I expect us to limp on oblivious with the old has beens until the end of the season as if everything is perfectly ok.

TM will then talk a good game about bringing in a number of first team starters in summer but in reality he will tinker round the edges once again with the excuse being made that proven Championship players are very expensive. We'll start next season with basically the same eleven as we have now. Our hand will then be forced in or around December time  with our League position so precarious and the squad in such a state that the next person coming in will be very hard pushed to save us. (In much the same way Mowbray couldn't)

What will be most telling is not just who he brings in but who he lets go. However, we’ve just given new contracts to a number of the old guard who really needed to be upgraded on: Williams, Evans, Mulgrew, Graham (1yr ext), 

So we will likely get:

- A new second keeper to replace Leutweiler (exp 2019)

- A new back up right back (we don’t have one)

- Wharton back from loan (if we don’t there is something fishy there) or an alternative replacement for Downing

- The only glimmer of hope is that Brereton signed a new contract to 2021 with Forest six months before we bought him ? so it is possible for these deals to still allow for a sale. However, I can’t remember the last player we sold for that another club had to twist our arm for, let alone spend well over the odds.

Anyway, this graphic gives an idea of our immediate gaps and lack of long term stability - shirt number is year of contract end (white = out of contract; red = 1yr; blue = 2yr; yellow = 3yr):

I don’t expect genuine upgrades to replace first teamers.

We have a gap on the left midfield, concerns on the right hand side of defence, one keeper and two high quality players who leave a big shoes to fill: Reed and Rodwell. (In particular, the signing of Rodwell on a one year deal, with no promotion ambitions was a very strange one indeed - what did it achieve?).