Mowbray: Stay or go?

[Exiled in Toronto]

So, in 2019, that’s 7-1-9 is it with four to play? Disappointing after the first half of the season but not far off mid-table form from a mid-table team. If the losses hadn’t come all in one go there wouldn’t even have been a thread.

In Jan + April-to-date we let in 3 goals in 7 games whereas in Feb + March we let in 21 goals in 10 games, most of them horrendous errors by Raya, Mulgrew, Nyambe, Bell and Williams when LB. I feel this has been a bigger issue than whether or not Mowbray picks Rothwell.

But he’s accountable for that lot being the bulk of our defensive crew. They’ve been found out at this level and, unless he fixes it in summer, so has he.

 

[Paul Mani]

Just now, Exiled in Toronto said:

So, in 2019, that’s 7-1-9 is it with four to play? Disappointing after the first half of the season but not far off mid-table form from a mid-table team. If the losses hadn’t come all in one go there wouldn’t even have been a thread.

In Jan + April-to-date we let in 3 goals in 7 games whereas in Feb + March we let in 21 goals in 10 games, most of them horrendous errors by Raya, Mulgrew, Nyambe, Bell and Williams when LB. I feel this has been a bigger issue than whether or not Mowbray picks Rothwell.

But he’s accountable for that lot being the bulk of our defensive crew. They’ve been found out at this level and, unless he fixes it in summer, so has he.

 

We’ll finish exactly where we were expected to.

Im glad you made the point highlighted in bold because it’s absolutely 100% correct. Important for leaders to hold their nerve in adversity whilst others shoot from the hip with decisions based on pure emotion. Though I don’t think Tony’s job was ever really in doubt when you consider the full context.

The summer is huge. He needs to recruit well with a relatively limited budget as we aim towards the playoffs. Let’s hope he pulls it off. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

1 hour ago, Paul Mani said:

We’ll finish exactly where we were expected to.

Im glad you made the point highlighted in bold because it’s absolutely 100% correct. Important for leaders to hold their nerve in adversity whilst others shoot from the hip with decisions based on pure emotion. Though I don’t think Tony’s job was ever really in doubt when you consider the full context.

The summer is huge. He needs to recruit well with a relatively limited budget as we aim towards the playoffs. Let’s hope he pulls it off. 

There in lies the problem. His previous recruitment does not lead me to think that he will pull it off. Let's hope I'm wrong.

[47er]

1 hour ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

So, in 2019, that’s 7-1-9 is it with four to play? Disappointing after the first half of the season but not far off mid-table form from a mid-table team. If the losses hadn’t come all in one go there wouldn’t even have been a thread.

In Jan + April-to-date we let in 3 goals in 7 games whereas in Feb + March we let in 21 goals in 10 games, most of them horrendous errors by Raya, Mulgrew, Nyambe, Bell and Williams when LB. I feel this has been a bigger issue than whether or not Mowbray picks Rothwell.

But he’s accountable for that lot being the bulk of our defensive crew. They’ve been found out at this level and, unless he fixes it in summer, so has he.

 

That's fair. I gave him till summer in the poll so he's got the transfer window to sort out the defence for me or he should be gone.

However its not as if this is a new problem and he hasn't given it the attention it deserved so I'm not hopeful.

[Paul Mani]

7 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

There in lies the problem. His previous recruitment does not lead me to think that he will pull it off. Let's hope I'm wrong.

Interesting that people (including me) are sceptical. Understandable to some extent but ultimately, it would appear that Tony coached and recruited the right players to get out of league 1 and then the right players to achieve this seasons target. So why are we all worried for next season? The managers not hiding and has long stated his and the owners intentions to target the playoffs next season...maybe the scepticism is based in the main on the emotion from losing so many games on the bounce. 

I wonder - If those losses were spread over a season where we had accumulated say 57 points would any of this criticism even exist?

Edited April 14, 2019 by Paul Mani
Typo

[arbitro]

37 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Interesting that people (including me) are sceptical. Understandable to some extent but ultimately, it would appear that Tony coached and recruited the right players to get out of league 1 and then the right players to achieve this seasons target. So why are we all worried for next season? The managers not hiding and has long stated his and the owners intentions to target the playoffs next season...maybe the scepticism is based in the main on the emotion from losing so many games on the bounce. 

I wonder - If those losses were spread over a season where we had accumulated say 57 points would any of this criticism even exist?

I think your points in the first paragraph have been more by luck than judgement. Mowbray himself has admitted he has been too loyal and although he hasn't mentioned names most of us know who they are. Hindsight is an exact science but I remember saying to my son at Ipswich in the first game that we have five League One players who would struggle over the course of a season.

I think you are right in your second paragraph but if we had started the season with the results of recent weeks I think Mowbray would have been sacked in October. One of my frustrations has been the winning and losing sequences over the season. The losing runs have highlighted real weaknesses within the squad.

[Wing Wizard Windy Miller]

Just now, arbitro said:

I think your points in the first paragraph have been more by luck than judgement. Mowbray himself has admitted he has been too loyal and although he hasn't mentioned names most of us know who they are. Hindsight is an exact science but I remember saying to my son at Ipswich in the first game that we have five League One players who would struggle over the course of a season.

I think you are right in your second paragraph but if we had started the season with the results of recent weeks I think Mowbray would have been sacked in October. One of my frustrations has been the winning and losing sequences over the season. The losing runs have highlighted real weaknesses within the squad.

Perhaps without the losing streaks and some pastings away from home, he wouldn't be focusing on defence.  Which, alongside a striker, is where the investment is needed most.  Massive window this summer, not convinced we'll get it right.  Going to need North of £10-15 mil and that's without selling Dack.

[Oldgregg86]

For me yes because his tactics and player selection along with his baffling comments and suspect transfer policy/use of funds means he would still kill momentum and stifle progress ultimately leading to the same questions and doubts that haunt him now, regardless of when we won and lost

[Paul Mani]

37 minutes ago, arbitro said:

I think your points in the first paragraph have been more by luck than judgement. Mowbray himself has admitted he has been too loyal and although he hasn't mentioned names most of us know who they are. Hindsight is an exact science but I remember saying to my son at Ipswich in the first game that we have five League One players who would struggle over the course of a season.

I think you are right in your second paragraph but if we had started the season with the results of recent weeks I think Mowbray would have been sacked in October. One of my frustrations has been the winning and losing sequences over the season. The losing runs have highlighted real weaknesses within the squad.

Ahh mate, I think that’s really harsh. So he’s got ‘lucky’ with recruitment and coaching both seasons? Surely it’s unfair to hold the manager upto the highest standards when we disagree with his decisions and then say his successes lucky? 

Theres lots of examples of managers who have not achieved their goals and are still in a job. 

Ive been frustrated with the winning and losing streaks too but they quite clearly suggest a lack of depth in quality. Ie when we have our best players available we’re pretty good but we don’t have much behind them. Surely this is normal for a team who came up last season?

I just think that the losing streak has put a massive negative tint on what has been a brilliant couple of seasons. I still feel that had the losses been spread out over the season, then everyone would be happy going into the summer. 

Like it or not, the guy is doing his job. 

[Stuart]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

Ahh mate, I think that’s really harsh. So he’s got ‘lucky’ with recruitment and coaching both seasons? Surely it’s unfair to hold the manager upto the highest standards when we disagree with his decisions and then say his successes lucky? 

Theres lots of examples of managers who have not achieved their goals and are still in a job. 

Ive been frustrated with the winning and losing streaks too but they quite clearly suggest a lack of depth in quality. Ie when we have our best players available we’re pretty good but we don’t have much behind them. Surely this is normal for a team who came up last season?

I just think that the losing streak has put a massive negative tint on what has been a brilliant couple of seasons. I still feel that had the losses been spread out over the season, then everyone would be happy going into the summer. 

Like it or not, the guy is doing his job. 

You can’t compare last season and this. They have to be judged separately. He came into Rovers at just the right time. Nobody holds him responsible for the relegation he has on his record, they blame Coyle - even though a more adventurous manager may have got the necessary win to stay up. Similarly, getting promoted was, whilst an achievement on his cv, was not entirely down to him. His contribution was enabling the good team spirit between the most expensive team in the division. Even Mowbray admits that he leaves the players to it and the senior players have a lot of control. He finished second when he could have gone for first. Ok, I didn’t like it but fair enough.

This season he has been shown to be more like he was in his first spell with us in the Championship. He has made poor selections week after week and made regularly poor substitutions. The team spirit has been absent for large spells.

I’m not sure I’d call it luck but it is very hard to see which bits he has managed to improve. His recruitment has been abysmal. With Dack to only genuine success - and Rothwell looks like being the second now Mowbray has taken his foot off his head. The rest of the ‘senior players’ (Graham, Mulgrew, Bennett, Evans, Conway) were here before Mowbray.

He is a good man, he is an average manager. The only thing which works in his favour is that Venkys’ record for managers - aside from one who didn’t trust the buggers - has been complete novices. So he gets an inordinate amount of leeway.

What will be far more interesting - and more telling - will be to compare this season and next...

[AllRoverAsia]

I must have missed all those years we spent at L1, was it in the 90s or early 2,000's??

If we end this season on a winning run it will just make it more likely that not much will happen this summer.

I'm still waiting on details of when we were annihilated when playing Reed and Travis together in CM. OH wait a moment, it never happened just a figment of the imagination.

[Paul Mani]

31 minutes ago, Oldgregg86 said:

For me yes because his tactics and player selection along with his baffling comments and suspect transfer policy/use of funds means he would still kill momentum and stifle progress ultimately leading to the same questions and doubts that haunt him now, regardless of when we won and lost

Obviously all opinions but what has he stifled? We’ll finish around mid table, he’s blooded some youngsters, not all of his signings have worked but Reed, Armstrong and more now Rothwell can be seen as positive. There’s a player in Rodwell too. Still question marks over B.B but he’s young so there’s time. He’s guided us to a respectable finish and has invited the pressure of challenging for promotion next season. When you consider what he walked into, that’s not bad. Is it? 

[Paul Mani]

Just now, AllRoverAsia said:

I must have missed all those years we spent at L1, was it in the 90s or early 2,000's??

If we end this season on a winning run it will just make it more likely that not much will happen this summer.

I'm still waiting on details of when we were annihilated when playing Reed and Travis together in CM. OH wait a moment, it never happened just a figment of the imagination.

Reed didn’t play. He’s injured...keep up old chap! ?

[AllRoverAsia]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

Reed didn’t play. He’s injured...keep up old chap! ?

what are you on about? 

[Paul Mani]

Just now, Stuart said:

You can’t compare last season and this. They have to be judged separately. He came into Rovers at just the right time. Nobody holds him responsible for the relegation he has on his record, they blame Coyle - even though a more adventurous manager may have got the necessary win to stay up. Similarly, getting promoted was, whilst an achievement on his cv, was not entirely down to him. His contribution was enabling the good team spirit between the most expensive team in the division. Even Mowbray admits that he leaves the players to it and the senior players have a lot of control. He finished second when he could have gone for first. Ok, I didn’t like it but fair enough.

This season he has been shown to be more like he was in his first spell with us in the Championship. He has made poor selections week after week and made regularly poor substitutions. The team spirit has been absent for large spells.

I’m not sure I’d call it luck but it is very hard to see which bits he has managed to improve. His recruitment has been abysmal. With Dack to only genuine success - and Rothwell looks like being the second now Mowbray has taken his foot off his head. The rest of the ‘senior players’ (Graham, Mulgrew, Bennett, Evans, Conway) were here before Mowbray.

He is a good man, he is an average manager. The only thing which works in his favour is that Venkys’ record for managers - aside from one who didn’t trust the buggers - has been complete novices. So he gets an inordinate amount of leeway.

What will be far more interesting - and more telling - will be to compare this season and next...

Stuart, in the season we went down TM’s team went at a play off rate of points from Coyles catastrophic grounding and ended up getting relegated with the highest ever points tally to go down. They basically ran out of time. 

He then got rid of the deadwood and managed to keep the better players adding Dack, Downing, Antonnson, Armstrong, Smallwood and Payne who ALL played their part in promotion. That’s not luck.

This season, he has steadied us and we’re on for a mid table finish in line with our budget and far in front of the other two teams who were promoted.

Im not saying he’s perfect. He’s made lots of bad decisions, questionable team selections and weird team choices. But ultimately he’s done his job. Surely?

[Ewood Ace]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

Reed didn’t play. He’s injured...keep up old chap! ?

He's talking about you saying how teams annihilate us on the counter when Reed and Travis play in the middle. However despite numerous posters asking you for examples you still haven't been able to give any.

[Paul Mani]

Just now, AllRoverAsia said:

what are you on about? 

They played together once. So what? Midfields that vacate the centre of the pitch are always a worry for managers. It’s the same reason Gerrard and Lampard never worked.

 

Just now, Ewood Ace said:

He's talking about you saying how teams annihilate us on the counter when Reed and Travis play in the middle. However despite numerous posters asking you for examples you still haven't been able to give any.

Any examples of midfields with two players who chase fullbacks down and vacate the middle of the pitch? There aren’t many mate because managers don’t pick those players in a two together! 

[blueboy3333]

56 minutes ago, arbitro said:

maybe the scepticism is based in the main on the emotion from losing so many games on the bounce.  

No, it's based on the FACT he signed BB for £7m instead of signing a GK, a CB and a LB.

It's based on his poor record in general in the transfer market, which BB is a massive part of.  

Also based on the FACT he said in February that it would be difficult to sign better players than the CB's we already have and then changed his tune to 'I know we need defenders' a month later when were getting pumped. We'd already been pumped regularly in Nov/Dec so he was actually talking out of his arse anyway. 

Then there's his 'human qualities' of being 'loyal' that seriously impairs his judgement and costs the team points.

Then there's not picking the players in their best positions.

Then there' his '2 and a half' attacker bullshit - the theory being you can only have an attacking winger on one side of the pitch and not both because otherwise you'd leave yourself open. Amazingly yesterday we actually played with  3 and a half attackers and didn't get pumped, We didn't need a 'Bennett or a Conway' on the wing to balance things out, we had two proper attackers out wide. Puts his BS about Chapman not playing last season into perspective too. 

The legend of the Oldham full-back. Mowbray's negativity in a nutshell.

Also that he sets up his team to 'stop counter-attacks' - which explains our pitiful goals return at Ewood in the first half of matches.

Tony tends to make it up as he goes along. His judgement IMO is flawed and so is his character. He may be a 'nice guy' but you don't 'stay loyal' to players who are contributing to the team getting stuffed most weeks. Mowbray did exactly that. 

I could go on....emotion is a real bugger. ??

[blueboy3333]

Just now, AllRoverAsia said:

what are you on about? 

He thinks he's clever. The fact he didn't understand your point speaks volumes. 

[Paul Mani]

Just now, blueboy3333 said:

No, it's based on the FACT he signed BB for £7m instead of signing a GK, a CB and a LB.

It's based on his poor record in general in the transfer market, which BB is a massive part of.  

Also based on the FACT he said in February that it would be difficult to sign better players than the CB's we already have and then changed his tune to 'I know we need defenders' a month later when were getting pumped. We'd already been pumped regularly in Nov/Dec so he was actually talking out of his arse anyway. 

Then there's his 'human qualities' of being 'loyal' that seriously impairs his judgement and costs the team points.

Then there's not picking the players in their best positions.

Then there' his '2 and a half' attacker bullshit - the theory being you can only have an attacking winger on one side of the pitch and not both because otherwise you'd leave yourself open. Amazingly yesterday we actually played with  3 and a half attackers and didn't get pumped, We didn't need a 'Bennett or a Conway' on the wing to balance things out, we had two proper attackers out wide. Puts his BS about Chapman not playing last season into perspective too. 

The legend of the Oldham full-back. Mowbray's negativity in a nutshell.

Also that he sets up his team to 'stop counter-attacks' - which explains our pitiful goals return at Ewood in the first half of matches.

Tony tends to make it up as he goes along. His judgement IMO is flawed and so is his character. He may be a 'nice guy' but you don't 'stay loyal' to players who are contributing to the team getting stuffed most weeks. Mowbray did exactly that. 

I could go on....emotion is a real bugger. ??

Hahah you’re definitely emotional mate. FYI - none of that is fact, it’s opinion. Just saying ??

[Ewood Ace]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

Any examples of midfields with two players who chase fullbacks down and vacate the middle of the pitch? 

No any examples of when we have been annihilated when Reed and Travis play central midfield, as you claimed.

[Stuart]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

Stuart, in the season we went down TM’s team went at a play off rate of points from Coyles catastrophic grounding and ended up getting relegated with the highest ever points tally to go down. They basically ran out of time. 

He then got rid of the deadwood and managed to keep the better players adding Dack, Downing, Antonnson, Armstrong, Smallwood and Payne who ALL played their part in promotion. That’s not luck.

This season, he has steadied us and we’re on for a mid table finish in line with our budget and far in front of the other two teams who were promoted.

Im not saying he’s perfect. He’s made lots of bad decisions, questionable team selections and weird team choices. But ultimately he’s done his job. Surely?

Which deadwood did he get rid of? Jason Lowe? Well thanks for not handing out a new contract - that must have been a challenge!! Most of those who left where end of contract or end of loans - there was no “getting rid” of deadwood. The only player he moved on was Calamity Jason Steele - and he was replaced with, oh, the only other keeper already on the books, Calamity David Raya.

But, I’ll say it again, you can’t compare last season as we had the biggest budget in League One and we should have been promoted as Champions.

Mowbray’s tenure so far has been punctuated by “should haves” yet he is busy planning for two years from now. I bet most managed in the league wish they had the time that Venkys give their managers.

[blueboy3333]

2 minutes ago, AllRoverAsia said:

 

I'm still waiting on details of when we were annihilated when playing Reed and Travis together in CM. OH wait a moment, it never happened just a figment of the imagination.

And don't forget it's always '2.5' attackers - except yesterday when we won with '3.5' and also didn't get annihilated. Mowbray's flawed judgement and cautious, inflexible thinking once again laid bare. 

[Paul Mani]

Just now, Ewood Ace said:

No any examples of when we have been annihilated when Reed and Travis play central midfield, as you claimed.

Can someone find the bit where I said every time we play Reed and Travis in midfield together we get annaihilited please?

The point I made related to the discussion on Reed and Travis but was about midfielders who vacate the midfield.

[blueboy3333]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

Hahah you’re definitely emotional mate. FYI - none of that is fact, it’s opinion. Just saying ??

No it's all fact, and you can't counter a single point - mainly because you don't really have a clue and have to say 'I know managers and coaches' to try and give your opinions validity. ??