Mowbray: Stay or go?

[Paul Mani]

38 minutes ago, Pedro said:

Hmmm. I think I was one of the few that pointed that out at the time when many talked that squad down. 

 

Also, you was his biggest defender on here when I criticised him for lacking bollocks and going for it.

 

The end.

Amazing how people simply remember what they like to...??

Bowyer did a VERY good job for us BUT he blew his moment. That season was the one he had to achieve his goal. When he failed, I wanted him gone too. The club is always my priority. I just refuse to act like a spoilt child every time there’s a few bad results. ?

[roversfan99]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

Ps - I see the voting is creeping back. Wonder how many there are on here who hand on their heart, wish they could vote again...?

You can vote again. Ultimately, it is very normal that results change a vote on a managers future.

For me, there have been far more green shoots of hope in the last 3 games of course. The fear for me is that he will go back to the status quo.

Will Mowbray permanently go with the current front 4 or go back to the defensive winger nonsense? Will he continue to leave out the likes of Smallwood and Mulgrew? Is he trustworthy with a summer transfer window after blowing a massive, massive fee on a dolloper?

And also a worry that Bennett STILL has to be shoehorned in, and that he is unwilling to even try the kids (including Chapman and Davenport) from the bench.

[AllRoverAsia]

One short of a full house, amazing what a few wins will do.

[deryck guyler's spoon]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

Amazing how people simply remember what they like to...??

Bowyer did a VERY good job for us BUT he blew his moment. That season was the one he had to achieve his goal. When he failed, I wanted him gone too. The club is always my priority. I just refuse to act like a spoilt child every time there’s a few bad results. ?

To be fair it was more than "a few bad results". It was the manner of some of those defeats in that terrible run and the amount of goals shipped. It was unacceptable and very worrying that Mowbray either couldn't stop it or wasn't learning. I lost confidence in him and suspect that we might do better with someone else.

That having been said, some of the criticism went too far for too long. He's not the mug some would have you believe but you'd struggle to find nuance anywhere on this forum.

[Stuart]

3 minutes ago, S8 & Blue said:

Maybe don’t butt into other people’s conversations

Interesting. I’ll remember that when you do the same.

Although if you were looking to have a private conversation maybe messageboards aren’t the place for you.

Hang in a sec, I’ve just had a notification from someone else who wants to have a pop.

BRB

[SBlue]

Just now, Stuart said:

Interesting. I’ll remember that when you do the same.

Although if you were looking to have a private conversation maybe messageboards aren’t the place for you.

Hang in a sec, I’ve just had a notification from someone else who wants to have a pop.

BRB

Stop trying so hard to be humourless - doesn’t suit you!

Anyway, we won - get over it! ?

[Stuart]

Just now, S8 & Blue said:

Stop trying so hard to be humourless - doesn’t suit you!

Anyway, we won - get over it! ?

Certain posters on here sap the humour out of me. You didn’t used to be one.

[Pedro]

29 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Amazing how people simply remember what they like to...??

Bowyer did a VERY good job for us BUT he blew his moment. That season was the one he had to achieve his goal. When he failed, I wanted him gone too. The club is always my priority. I just refuse to act like a spoilt child every time there’s a few bad results. ?

I remember it as it was Paul. I'm not the sort to search out quotes etc. but I remember having some good posts to and fro about me criticising GB's lack of balls and you saying it was anything but that.  Also, I'm far from a spoilt child too. I'm massively frustrated at our failure to do well when we were so well-placed - again.  I think we could have really pushed on this season but Mowbray dropped some real clangers, when he should have dropped players he was too loyal to.  There aren't any special teams in this division. Sheff Utd. are the only ones I've seen that I thought were much better than us.  We might have missed the boat again long-term.

[blueboy3333]

4 hours ago, deryck guyler's spoon said:

but you'd struggle to find nuance anywhere on this forum.

It's refreshing that you're owning it. Fair play. 

[47er]

11 hours ago, Paul Mani said:

Amazing how people simply remember what they like to...??

Bowyer did a VERY good job for us BUT he blew his moment. That season was the one he had to achieve his goal. When he failed, I wanted him gone too. The club is always my priority. I just refuse to act like a spoilt child every time there’s a few bad results. ?

The problem on here is people acting like a spoilt child when we have a few good results! 

[deryck guyler's spoon]

5 hours ago, blueboy3333 said:

It's refreshing that you're owning it. Fair play. 

The suggestion being that I'm completely one eyed in my views on this forum. This despite me stating that I think that we'd probably be better off with a new manager but that the constant sniping at Mowbray has been overdone. I know you're feeling a bit under siege at the moment but your lack of self awareness having spammed the forum for weeks is surprising nonetheless. 

Your constant snark is also very tedious but unlike your spamming I suppose that is subjective.

[imy9]

19 hours ago, Stuart said:

We’ve covered all of this several times.

It’s really odd though that you quote points where I have been proven correct and use this as a stick to beat me with.

We cannot continue indefinitely to underachieve. Time is not on our side.

I disagree that the club is any different today than the one Mowbray walked in to.

So the club that Mowbray joined is no different to the one we have now? 

1. We had no scouting network, one has been set up. Expecting some foreign signings this summer, which should be the culmination of that hard work. 

2. We were in free fall, heading into league 1. You are now talking about us potentially being play off contenders. 

3. The wage bill has been dramatically reduced. 

4. We had a team with wes brown in defence and Anthony Stokes up front with Liam feeney in midfield. We have a number of exciting young players coming through. 

We are not perfect, Mowbray certainly isn't, his safety first mantra is frustrating but let's not re write history, we had Coyle as manager before Mowbray... 

Edited April 21, 2019 by imy9

[blueboy3333]

8 hours ago, deryck guyler's spoon said:

The suggestion being that I'm completely one eyed in my views on this forum. This despite me stating that I think that we'd probably be better off with a new manager but that the constant sniping at Mowbray has been overdone. I know you're feeling a bit under siege at the moment but your lack of self awareness having spammed the forum for weeks is surprising nonetheless. 

Your constant snark is also very tedious but unlike your spamming I suppose that is subjective.

You're still incredibly sensitive for someone whose every post is a dig. Maybe stop being an arse and you may not feel constantly snarked? Obviously you'd have to be self-aware enough to spot the issue first. Good luck. 

Edited April 21, 2019 by blueboy3333

[Atko's Engine]

21 hours ago, Stuart said:

disagree that the club is any different today than the one Mowbray walked in to.

C'mon, seriously?? We're no better off now overall than we were in Feb 2017?  That's a very hard opinion to justify...

[Stuart]

Just now, Atko's Engine said:

C'mon, seriously?? We're no better off now overall than we were in Feb 2017?  That's a very hard opinion to justify...

So why is everyone still afraid of a worse replacement if Mowbray was to go?

Same Venkys, different day.

[Atko's Engine]

22 hours ago, Pedro said:

A bang average run of results (rather than woeful) throughout Dec, Feb and March and some obvious selections would have seen us there (in my opinion).

But that presupposes that had we achieved a bang average run of results in those months, we would still also have won 4 in a row in January and 3 in a row in April so far. It's a prime example of criticising the bad (fair enough) but not giving credit for the good (unfair).

Had the wins in Jan & April been spread out evenly amongst the win, defeats and draws in Dec, Feb & Mar, that would be the absolute definition of a "bang average run of results" that you refer to across 5 months, but would leave us in exactly the same position as we're in, though arguably with less criticism of the bad results.

You can't say we should have avoided many of the bad results, whilst presuming we would have still got all the good ones. Football doesn't work like that!

[Atko's Engine]

Just now, Stuart said:

So why is everyone still afraid of a worse replacement if Mowbray was to go?

Same Venkys, different day.

I'm not one whose afraid of the alternative choices (though historically those choices have been poor; McLeish is on the market I see, would any of us wish to take the risk of his appointment?).

 I just think Mowbray has done well overall, achieved realistic progress comfortably in his time here, and therefore deserves the chance to kick on with his development plans for the club.

[tomphil]

3 hours ago, imy9 said:

So the club that Mowbray joined is no different to the one we have now? 

1. We had no scouting network, one has been set up. Expecting some foreign signings this summer, which should be the culmination of that hard work. 

2. We were in free fall, heading into league 1. You are now talking about us potentially being play off contenders. 

3. The wage bill has been dramatically reduced. 

4. We had a team with wes brown in defence and Anthony Stokes up front with Liam feeney in midfield. We have a number of exciting young players coming through. 

We are not perfect, Mowbray certainly isn't, his safety first mantra is frustrating but let's not re write history, we had Coyle as manager before Mowbray... 

Anthony Stokes upfront ?    When did this happen ?  

Anthony Stokes up in a bar in Edinburgh more like !

Just for a bit of balance and to highlight why some get annoyed at Mowbray despite some of the good stuff you've mentioned we also had a team that got relegated with Nyambe, Lenihen, Mulgrew and Williams often in defence.....we often still do.

That needs sorting as does the keeper situation.

[DE.]

3 hours ago, imy9 said:

So the club that Mowbray joined is no different to the one we have now? 

1. We had no scouting network, one has been set up. Expecting some foreign signings this summer, which should be the culmination of that hard work. 

2. We were in free fall, heading into league 1. You are now talking about us potentially being play off contenders. 

3. The wage bill has been dramatically reduced. 

4. We had a team with wes brown in defence and Anthony Stokes up front with Liam feeney in midfield. We have a number of exciting young players coming through. 

We are not perfect, Mowbray certainly isn't, his safety first mantra is frustrating but let's not re write history, we had Coyle as manager before Mowbray... 

Have to take a few issues with this Imy...

1. Mowbray's transfer record is very chequered at present, so I don't think we can start praising the scouting network until it starts producing for us. We've spent most of this season lining up with players that were already here when Mowbray arrived. Raya, Bennett, Nyambe, Lenihan, Mulgrew, Williams, Evans, Travis and Graham have all played fairly often. Dack, Chapman, Smallwood and Armstrong were brought in very early on before Mowbray would have had a chance to seriously implement a scouting network. 

The fruits of any major change to our scouting network so far have been Brereton, Rothwell, Rodwell, Reed and Amari Bell so... hmm. The summer needs to show improvement.

2. We were three points off safety with 15 games to go when Mowbray came in, so whilst we were struggling I wouldn't call it free fall. Free fall is Ipswich this season, or Rotherham the season we went down. As for us being playoff contenders, we're way off. Way off. We need a lot of upgrades and for Mowbray to gain some serious courage. If we'd been utilising the likes of Rothwell, Reed and Travis properly two months ago who knows where we would be now? Instead we waited until our season was dead in the water before taking a chance, and I'm afraid that it doesn't mean much now. Mowbray needs to be braver when there's still something to play for, or we will have to accept mid-table at best for his entire run here.

3. I'm surprised by this if it's true. We still have all of our big earners from when Mowbray joined, and I assume they haven't taken a pay cut with their new contracts? Some players have gone but I can't think of anybody who would have been on huge wages, and most of them were replaced, one assumes on comparable if slightly lower wages.

4. Agree on this point.

I feel like the club is roughly back to the same state it was in when GB was here, with a lower wage budget but a higher transfer budget... so again no real difference. The board situation is a little stronger, I think, which is good. That said I'm still unsure where the true authority lies and whether Waggott, for example, is able to agree budgets or if he has to go through Venky's/Pasha first. It worries me that Mowbray is still having to fly out to India. That shouldn't be necessary with a proper board structure in place. 

[Pedro]

3 minutes ago, Atko's Engine said:

But that presupposes that had we achieved a bang average run of results in those months, we would still also have won 4 in a row in January and 3 in a row in April so far. It's a prime example of criticising the bad (fair enough) but not giving credit for the good (unfair).

Had the wins in Jan & April been spread out evenly amongst the win, defeats and draws in Dec, Feb & Mar, that would be the absolute definition of a "bang average run of results" that you refer to across 5 months, but would leave us in exactly the same position as we're in, though arguably with less criticism of the bad results.

You can't say we should have avoided many of the bad results, whilst presuming we would have still got all the good ones. Football doesn't work like that!

I'm sure you know what you are on about but please don't take offence, it seems like a lot of craziness to me ?

 

My point being, that team, that squad, those players, played correctly should have achieved better results and could have done if they were utilised correctly.  They weren't, and that was Mowbray's choice.   During that time, our resulrs were pitiful.  Anything less than pitiful (average) then we would have something to play for (the playoffs). In Feb we went stale, panicky and disorganised very quickly and game after game it was like groundhog day...but Tony didn't address the obvious.  We were miles ahead of Preston etc. and above Villa but we were so bad, we were looking cautiously over our shoulders whilst average teams with average results (Villa apart) marched on.

Our upturn in results has only come about when the Evans/Smallwood pairing had been broken up, being more expansive and attack-minded and Rothwell (who clearly made a positive impact every time he made a cameo) became a mainstay.

Lots of people on here said that needed to be done and credit to them in this instance, they were right.  That change clearly should've been made much sooner and faith should've been put in the players Mowbray easily and wrongly criticises the most.

 

[Blue blood]

On ‎19‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 22:51, Atko's Engine said:

I see what you're driving at (!) with your motoring analogy, though I'm not sure that it transposes well into football management. Managers get judged on results across the season, that's the long & short of it.

The rest of your post I agree is fact, but ignores / glosses over the many positives he's brought. He's galvanised the club, stabilised it, got us looking up instead of down, signed gems as well as flops.

It's not fair to just look at the negatives and say he's not good enough for the next stage based on those.  It's important to have a balanced view of his tenure here; I think overall he has done more good than harm and therefore has earned the right to try to take us on still further.

There's real attacking flare & promise within our squad, which I might add is down to his transfer dealings (Dack, Rothwell, Armstrong, Chapman, and hopefully BB in the longer term).  His job now is to supplement them and find the right style of play to get the best from them.

Thanks for a well reasoned counter argument.

I don't think I am solely negative, although I'll admit I am not TM's biggest fan. (In the Tony's transfer record I give him praise for his positive signings for one.) I think the point I'm trying to make is an evaluation of his positives and negatives make me sceptical that he can take us further forward.

Can't argue with most of your positives - the stabilising, looking up instead of down, and I would add in got rid of most of the dross too - Steele, Feeney, Lowe, Stokes - he's got rid of some corkers. 

Thing is, I'd say your post for Tony, actually says more about his weaknesses than his positives.

- "signed gems as well as flops", and "attacking flair and promise including hopefully Bereton." Am really not sure how you can class Bereton as promising much less attacking flair. You've basically put his biggest and most expensive mistake, as a hopeful positive! Bereton blew most of our transfer budget and looks nowhere near ready, how can that be a positive?

- also on the gems as well as flops - I'd say that good managers generally have 2 stats in the transfer market: 1) they get more right than wrong, and 2) they get the big expensive ones right. Big Sam, Hughes, even Bowyer (who I don't rate that highly) all had more plusses than minuses and got the expensive transfers right. TM with the best will in the world is more 50:50 and has got his most expensive signing wrong the last 2 years.

- the attacking flair that you mentioned, 2 of whom have hardly played this season, and one still isn't. I guess you could say TM is learning - albeit slowly - now Rothwell is in the team, but there are question marks as to why it has taken so long. I think this shows TM isn't a disaster of a manger, as he does learn from his mistakes, but isn't a great one as it takes an age for him to do so. His time in league 1 with us to me followed a similar pattern. It took him quite a while to get to grips with it. A good manager gets to grips with things a lot more quickly, which is another reason I feel we'll not progress  under TM.

- "his job is to find the right style of play to get the best from them" - perhaps your most damning statement of  TM. The fact he hasn't got a style yet after 2 and a half years in the job is beyond worrying. The fact we haven't been signing players to fit said style or haven't worked the style out, again shows  a massive lack of planning and nous. I get Rome wasn't built in a day but no good manager is still looking for his style 2 and a half years on. Take Hughes for example - first half season uber defensive, aggressive and stay up, and then a more expressive but still aggressive game from his first full season onwards. Big Sam had us going long from day 1. Top not have a system in place 2 and a half years on is pretty criminal.

Don't get me wrong he is a decent manager, which is a lot better than most we've had. His mini-runs prove he's not terrible. He does learn (albeit slowly) he can get some good  players in - compared to chancers like Coyle and Ke*n he's streets ahead. Problem is for me ok isn't good enough and I don't think that's what we need to move us forward.

[Admiral Nelsen]

Just now, DE. said:

3. I'm surprised by this if it's true. We still have all of our big earners from when Mowbray joined, and I assume they haven't taken a pay cut with their new contracts? Some players have gone but I can't think of anybody who would have been on huge wages, and most of them were replaced, one assumes on comparable if slightly lower wages.
 

I think the outgoings of Lowe, Feeney, Guthrie, Akpan, Stokes and Henley would have more substantial than people might think. Lowe and Henley in particular signed deals in the top flight, I'd be surprised if we're paying anyone (other than probably Mulgrew, feasibly Graham and Dack) as much as Henley even, who was on significantly north of £10,000 a week, if rumours are to be believed. This is before you get into the numerous loans of Emnes, Joao, Gally etc, and the probably cheap but nevertheless first team Brown and Greer.

Accept that I'm speculating & that we've brought players in too, but I doubt players we brought in at L1 level, or players from other teams youth set-ups like Armstrong and Davenport would make up for those players that have been let go, and loan wise we haven't gone mad, only really Reed being likely to be on a decent wedge.

[tomphil]

Just now, Admiral Nelsen said:

I think the outgoings of Lowe, Feeney, Guthrie, Akpan, Stokes and Henley would have more substantial than people might think. Lowe and Henley in particular signed deals in the top flight, I'd be surprised if we're paying anyone (other than probably Mulgrew, feasibly Graham and Dack) as much as Henley even, who was on significantly north of £10,000 a week, if rumours are to be believed. This is before you get into the numerous loans of Emnes, Joao, Gally etc, and the probably cheap but nevertheless first team Brown and Greer.

Accept that I'm speculating & that we've brought players in too, but I doubt players we brought in at L1 level, or players from other teams youth set-ups like Armstrong and Davenport would make up for those players that have been let go, and loan wise we haven't gone mad, only really Reed being likely to be on a decent wedge.

Fair points although Arma was on good dough at Newcastle - £15k pwk at least or maybe more but I think the longer deal Rovers gave him made up for a bit of shortfall on that.

Evans, Mulgrew, DG will be on the best part of £20k pwk now I reckon although maybe the contract extensions covered the rebalancing of their wages after the league 1 cut although maybe not that could just have been a cherry on top.

[DE.]

Just now, Admiral Nelsen said:

I think the outgoings of Lowe, Feeney, Guthrie, Akpan, Stokes and Henley would have more substantial than people might think. Lowe and Henley in particular signed deals in the top flight, I'd be surprised if we're paying anyone (other than probably Mulgrew, feasibly Graham and Dack) as much as Henley even, who was on significantly north of £10,000 a week, if rumours are to be believed. This is before you get into the numerous loans of Emnes, Joao, Gally etc, and the probably cheap but nevertheless first team Brown and Greer.

Accept that I'm speculating & that we've brought players in too, but I doubt players we brought in at L1 level, or players from other teams youth set-ups like Armstrong and Davenport would make up for those players that have been let go, and loan wise we haven't gone mad, only really Reed being likely to be on a decent wedge.

Entirely possible the wage bill is slightly lower, you'd normally expect that when a club has dropped to a lower division and come back, but "dramatically reduced"? I'm just not sure about that.

[Admiral Nelsen]

Just now, tomphil said:

Fair points although Arma was on good dough at Newcastle - £15k pwk at least or maybe more but I think the longer deal Rovers gave him made up for a bit of shortfall on that.

Evans, Mulgrew, DG will be on the best part of £20k pwk now I reckon although maybe the contract extensions covered the rebalancing of their wages after the league 1 cut although maybe not that could just have been a cherry on top.

Fair enough. I'd expect DG to be on significanty less from when he first signed, given the negotiation at the end of last season, but again, I'm speculating.

Just now, DE. said:

Entirely possible the wage bill is slightly lower, you'd normally expect that when a club has dropped to a lower division and come back, but "dramatically reduced"? I'm just not sure about that.

Again, fair enough. Can't argue this too strongly without actually having the balance sheet to hand I suppose, but I suspect that the reduction is significant.

I think I'd be more inclined to give TM credit for increasing the value of the squad, rather than a particularly massive wage reduction. Something that got missed in our relegation season is how many of our more important players throughout that season didn't actually belong to us! Others on their way our after contracts running out. Seemed like we were becoming an empty shell, with probably only Lenihan who could have commanded a semi-decent fee and be courted by decent clubs at that point.

Now, we can point throughout the squad at players of good ages, on good length contracts who could either command good fees now, or at the very least develop into players who could command good fees, like Rothwell. You'd have to say the good players from the youth team have fallen into his lap a bit, but he still had to go out and get the Dacks, Rothwells, Armstrongs, Chapmans and not take the easy option of flooding the team with free transfers in their late twenties and short-term loans like Coyle did.