Mowbray: Stay or go?

[Norbert Rassragr]

Just now, Blue blood said:

In fairness to Venkys - whom I loath and detest - I can see why they'd be sceptical giving TM money after the last £7 million went down the drain. 

One of the most baffling things they did was cut the limited funding to Bowyer given the profit he kept making for them. 

Either way I've a feeling our budget next season is going to be small. 

I was not aware Skype was 'beyond babyish'. Then again I am not a Barry Homeowner and have never used LinkedIn, or any professional, adult networking/communication tools. 

I agree with the last few posts you did, and I think we will be disappointed by the stupid and slow way Venkys go about their business.

[tomphil]

The whole idea of having a proper CEO was to plug gaps like this he should be able to lay out the managers plans and vision that's his job to oversee it he runs the club for them in Blackburn.

He could be in India in the next couple of weeks whilst the manager continues working with the team. It's the exact set up other managers have asked for in the recent past.

[Stuart]

Just now, FGS5635 said:

For me if you let the CEO organise the budget with venkys, then it becomes a simple business decision based on balance sheets and we get £x

TM probably feels that if he is there face to face with them he can sell them on a bigger picture and get them to give £x + more

What if the manager is seen as the main man, and the Chief Executive is an administrative role?

[DE.]

Just now, tomphil said:

The whole idea of having a proper CEO was to plug gaps like this he should be able to lay out the managers plans and vision that's his job to oversee it he runs the club for them in Blackburn.

 He could be in India in the next couple of weeks whilst the manager continues working with the team. It's the exact set up other managers have asked for in the recent past.

Yep. The fact Mowbray is still having to go to India, like every other manager that came before him, shows that our owners still haven't learned anywhere near enough. On the surface we have had a structure put in place at board level, but at core we're still operating the same way during the most important parts of the season - manager goes begging cap in hand to India, having to act as a salesman as well as the first team manager. It's ridiculous.

[Ewood Ace]

2 hours ago, Biz said:

Why is everything always a binary yes or no, right or wrong, black or white?

Nobody said TM has completely turned the club around, they just pointed out the improvement in just over two years.

I always feel with you Stuart, if you hadn’t made your mind up about TM before his first game, you wouldn’t be hyper-criticising everything we do now.

You know, you don’t have to make your mind up, you know? 

Can I add - screen shotting this and replying on Twitter is one of the saddest ways to make a point. “Sub tweeting” is modern day social media “shade” 101!

People said the same about the job Bowyer had done and look how that ended. What Mowbray has done is purely cosmetic on the face of it we may look a more efficiently run club but scratch beneath the surface and you will find that nothing has really changed and it won’t change regardless of who is manager whilst the Venky’s are in charge.

[Ewood Ace]

33 minutes ago, FGS5635 said:

For me if you let the CEO organise the budget with venkys, then it becomes a simple business decision based on balance sheets and we get £x

TM probably feels that if he is there face to face with them he can sell them on a bigger picture and get them to give £x + more

I can see the benefits for both sides of face to face talks. My problem is the timing of them, why not have them this week or next week (given we know where we will finish around in the league) instead of at the end of the season when other sides are well in to their recruitment process.

[Blue blood]

26 minutes ago, Norbert Rassragr said:

I was not aware Skype was 'beyond babyish'. Then again I am not a Barry Homeowner and have never used LinkedIn, or any professional, adult networking/communication tools. 

I agree with the last few posts you did, and I think we will be disappointed by the stupid and slow way Venkys go about their business.

Bad communication on my part - it's beyond babyish they don't use it. In fact they're the only people I know who don't use it. Every business I know utilises conference calls so why they won't is inexplicable. 

[Mattyblue]

Indeed EA.

 I remember Souness missing a late season dead rubber game for us as he went scouting players instead.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Mattyblue

[JBiz]

Just now, Ewood Ace said:

People said the same about the job Bowyer had done and look how that ended. What Mowbray has done is purely cosmetic on the face of it we may look a more efficiently run club but scratch beneath the surface and you will find that nothing has really changed and it won’t change regardless of who is manager whilst the Venky’s are in charge.

Why criticise the manager or the players then?

If it’s all such a pointless exercise under these owners, why do we even bother turning up.

 

[DE.]

Whenever I see a suggestion that we are a "well run club" I shake my head in bewilderment. A well run company does not leave long term vision in the hands of a traditionally short-term employee, who also happens to be a number of levels below various other executives. That is a nonsense structure. 

The owners should be the ones setting out the high level vision. It could be as simple as "we want to be challenging for the playoffs in three years, whilst staying within FFP limits". They then direct the board - whether that be the CEO, CFO, DOF, SOB, whatever - to present them with a strategy that can achieve this goal. Maybe it's just one plan, maybe multiple, who knows. Irrespective of that the owners and the board eventually agree on a way forward. This ideally includes budgets at least a year in advance. The board then relay to the first team manager what the expectations of the owners are and the parameters they have to work with. They let the manager know the transfer/wage budget he has to work with for the upcoming season, and advises of any potential overspend should the club be overachieving or conversely in danger of being relegated. The board have the authority to release any funds already agreed with the owners as part of the initial budget. All of the high level stuff is done. The first team manager never has to talk to the owners about it, he knows exactly what he has to work with and what is expected of him. No need for cap in hand visits to sell a dream, no need for question marks over who we can or can't sign, no delays to transfers awaiting approval from India. None of that. It's all agreed in advance of the season.  If the manager does end up being sacked, resigns or is poached, the high level vision and budgets remain in place and the board can search for a suitable replacement that can continue with the vision that has been set out. The first team manager leaving has no impact beyond the performance of the first team. 

It really isn't that difficult, and the only reason I can see for not implementing something like this at Rovers is that the owners really don't care that much. It just doesn't make sense to me otherwise. It's basic business practice and I imagine the vast majority of professional clubs operate in this way at a fundamental level. 

[Mattyblue]

DE for management consultant!

[JHRover]

Just now, DE. said:

Whenever I see a suggestion that we are a "well run club" I shake my head in bewilderment. A well run company does not leave long term vision in the hands of a traditionally short-term employee, who also happens to be a number of levels below various other executives. That is a nonsense structure. 

The owners should be the ones setting out the high level vision. It could be as simple as "we want to be challenging for the playoffs in three years, whilst staying within FFP limits". They then direct the board - whether that be the CEO, CFO, DOF, SOB, whatever - to present them with a strategy that can achieve this goal. Maybe it's just one plan, maybe multiple, who knows. Irrespective of that the owners and the board eventually agree on a way forward. This ideally includes budgets at least a year in advance. The board then relay to the first team manager what the expectations of the owners are and the parameters they have to work with. They let the manager know the transfer/wage budget he has to work with for the upcoming season, and advises of any potential overspend should the club be overachieving or conversely in danger of being relegated. The board have the authority to release any funds already agreed with the owners as part of the initial budget. All of the high level stuff is done. The first team manager never has to talk to the owners about it, he knows exactly what he has to work with and what is expected of him. No need for cap in hand visits to sell a dream, no need for question marks over who we can or can't sign, no delays to transfers awaiting approval from India. None of that. It's all agreed in advance of the season.  If the manager does end up being sacked, resigns or is poached, the high level vision and budgets remain in place and the board can search for a suitable replacement that can continue with the vision that has been set out. The first team manager leaving has no impact beyond the performance of the first team. 

It really isn't that difficult, and the only reason I can see for not implementing something like this at Rovers is that the owners really don't care that much. It just doesn't make sense to me otherwise. It's basic business practice and I imagine the vast majority of professional clubs operate in this way at a fundamental level. 

Absolutely. It's really not that hard to work out. We've got a backward structure in place where the manager of the first team is also effectively manager of the club. We hoped that had changed with the arrival of Waggott as Chief Executive but it appears not. 

I'm afraid the only logical conclusion to come to with Waggott is that the owners were persuaded to appoint him as Chief Executive by Mowbray/Cheston/Pasha to handle the no doubt hefty workload of running the operation on a day to day basis (far too much for one person to handle as they attempted with Cheston) and Mowbray put a good word in for Waggott having got to know him during their time at Coventry City. 

It certainly doesn't appear to be the case that Waggott has the ability to act as the link between India and Brockhall, nor does he have the ability to handle budgets other than to propose them to India for approval, nor does it seem he even has authority to determine season ticket prices without needing prior approval from India which won't come until the summer.

This ludicrous structure they have put in place is, of course, entirely their decision as majority shareholders and funders of the club. I don't think it will ever ensure any sustained improvement at the club because it is so inherently flawed and backward in an industry where the proactive and bold are successful. It might be the way they like to do things, good for them, but it will pretty much guarantee that mid-table Championship is as good as it gets unless a fluke happens. And it will cost them £10-15 million a year every year as a result.

When you look at the size of clubs and professionalism of some of the operations at the top end of the Championship we're a million miles off and it looks like the owners like it that way. No point tasking Waggott with increasing revenues but not allowing him to release season ticket prices.

We're hearing similar stuff now from Mowbray - having to go to India to 'find out' what the owners ambitions are. 

Hang on a minute - I thought they agreed on a plan and a strategy last summer and Mowbray persuaded them to go down the slow build approach of him building a promotion capable squad over 4 transfer windows? 

It seems Mowbray doesn't have a clue what is in store and it all hinges, as ever, on what Madame decides in a meeting in May. 

[tomphil]

Just now, Ewood Ace said:

I can see the benefits for both sides of face to face talks. My problem is the timing of them, why not have them this week or next week (given we know where we will finish around in the league) instead of at the end of the season when other sides are well in to their recruitment process.

There'll always be the problem on the sheer distance and time differences that has caused massive problems in the past and that'll not change.  They've had nearly ten years now to come up with a viable process that negates that, other clubs manage it.

I think trust issues have also played a part but now they have a guy they supposedly trust and who has delivered the only modicum of success under their tenure in righting immediately the wrongs of relegation to league 1 and has invested the one significant one off sum they allowed ( Brereton aside) in a player who's been a success and will probably move on for ten times what was paid.

With the modern technology available now that actually allows live meetings wherever you are in the world there shouldn't be a need to go over there be it voluntarily or summoned.  It's hard to know who's calling the shots on this as I thought we were under the impression if Tony asks Tony will get, he's continually told us there's been funds but he hasn't spent them so why does he need to go all the way over there to ask again for something that is supposed to be sat thee waiting to be spent ? Is the crafty goat after yet another contract extension ?

Let's not forget we also have an official middleman who's supposed to do these things, what's he up to ?

[Stuart]

16 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Indeed EA.

 I remember Souness missing a late season dead rubber game for us as he went scouting players instead.

Souey was a winner. Finishing with 60 points this season would have been as bad as finishing with 50.

[LDRover]

Anyone know how the overseas scouting is progressing? 

[arbitro]

Mowbray having to go to India to meet them implies (to me anyway) that he doesn't know what his budget will be. 

His comments are worrying.

[47er]

Just now, arbitro said:

Mowbray having to go to India to meet them implies (to me anyway) that he doesn't know what his budget will be. 

His comments are worrying.

Goes without saying that he should know his budget by now and have his targets based on it.

[Stuart]

Just now, 47er said:

Goes without saying that he should know his budget by now and have his targets based on it.

Annual meeting with the owners to discuss “the football team”.

Presumably the season ticket pricing, operating budget, and recruitment budget - based on the long-standing recruitment - will all be submitted ahead of discussions.

All well behind schedule compared the other Championship clubs.

[arbitro]

Just now, 47er said:

Goes without saying that he should know his budget by now and have his targets based on it.

At any normal club that would be the case. Mowbray was due to go out in November last year but didn't go and no reason was given. Significantly we didn't spend much. I'm probably stating the obvious to a lot of supporters but whilst they are here we will never be a normal club.

[Bigdoggsteel]

2 hours ago, FGS5635 said:

For me if you let the CEO organise the budget with venkys, then it becomes a simple business decision based on balance sheets and we get £x

TM probably feels that if he is there face to face with them he can sell them on a bigger picture and get them to give £x + more

If he must go over, he should be over during the last international break, last week when we knew we were staying up or literally anytime before the end of the season.

He probably won't get an audience until two weeks after the season ends. 

It's all very frustrating and I think it should be a concern to even the most optimistic of fans. 

It's a ambition meter that the manager must gauge on a rolling basis. They obviously still just don't understand how football works. I would expect now that we have a CEO, there wouldn't be a need for this nonsense. 

Edited April 22, 2019 by Bigdoggsteel

[DE.]

1 hour ago, Mattyblue said:

DE for management consultant!

If they're willing to pay me Shebby's salary I could probably deal with the travel to India to then be ignored. Maybe I'd even write a letter of concern and be sacked six months later when it's leaked to the press. Good fun.

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

I would expect now that we have a CEO, there wouldn't be a need for this nonsense. 

As JHRover mentioned, I get the feeling Waggott is just here to run day-to-day operations at Ewood, much like all previous employees who were in a similar position. I doubt he is being utilised in the correct manner, as for reasons only known to Venky's that remit seems to fall to the first team manager, who is theoretically lower in the totem pole but seems to be in charge of vision and budget. It's truly bizarre and totally dysfunctional.  Wasn't Paul Hunt something like Deputy CEO... but also Deputy to a CEO that didn't actually exist and was not even in the process of being potentially hired? 

[AllRoverAsia]

54 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Absolutely. It's really not that hard to work out. We've got a backward structure in place where the manager of the first team is also effectively manager of the club. We hoped that had changed with the arrival of Waggott as Chief Executive but it appears not. 

I'm afraid the only logical conclusion to come to with Waggott is that the owners were persuaded to appoint him as Chief Executive by Mowbray/Cheston/Pasha to handle the no doubt hefty workload of running the operation on a day to day basis (far too much for one person to handle as they attempted with Cheston) and Mowbray put a good word in for Waggott having got to know him during their time at Coventry City. 

It certainly doesn't appear to be the case that Waggott has the ability to act as the link between India and Brockhall, nor does he have the ability to handle budgets other than to propose them to India for approval, nor does it seem he even has authority to determine season ticket prices without needing prior approval from India which won't come until the summer.

This ludicrous structure they have put in place is, of course, entirely their decision as majority shareholders and funders of the club. I don't think it will ever ensure any sustained improvement at the club because it is so inherently flawed and backward in an industry where the proactive and bold are successful. It might be the way they like to do things, good for them, but it will pretty much guarantee that mid-table Championship is as good as it gets unless a fluke happens. And it will cost them £10-15 million a year every year as a result.

When you look at the size of clubs and professionalism of some of the operations at the top end of the Championship we're a million miles off and it looks like the owners like it that way. No point tasking Waggott with increasing revenues but not allowing him to release season ticket prices.

We're hearing similar stuff now from Mowbray - having to go to India to 'find out' what the owners ambitions are. 

Hang on a minute - I thought they agreed on a plan and a strategy last summer and Mowbray persuaded them to go down the slow build approach of him building a promotion capable squad over 4 transfer windows? 

It seems Mowbray doesn't have a clue what is in store and it all hinges, as ever, on what Madame decides in a meeting in May. 

Very good post.

That is what happened, I cant exactly recall the number of windows the 'build' was over.

We as fans are treated as Mushroom Goldfish, which is some cases is just about spot on.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

2 hours ago, Blue blood said:

It also shows why we'll never succeed under Venkys. When your decision making process is twice as slow as everyone else's you are at a massive disadvantage. (And no Skype - beyond unprofessional, babyish.) Given they don't have a clue either when making decisions it's a guaranteed disaster. 

Exactly why we'll never ever be a " normal " club while we have these idiots running the show.

[Exiled in Toronto]

1 hour ago, tomphil said:

The whole idea of having a proper CEO was to plug gaps like this he should be able to lay out the managers plans and vision that's his job to oversee it he runs the club for them in Blackburn.

He could be in India in the next couple of weeks whilst the manager continues working with the team. It's the exact set up other managers have asked for in the recent past.

He should be in India now. First club to know our fate and we’ll still be last to enter the transfer market.

Normal club my arse.

[Atko's Engine]

Can't disagree with much if what's been said over the last page or so, though I would add that perhaps the confused structure of the club brings into sharper focus what a decent job TM has done in spite of it all.