Phil Jones To Leave Utd - Sell On Clause?

[Guest]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

Whilst I appreciate your point that Mowbray has perhaps not utilised a successful academy as much as he might, you are speaking as if the youngsters are robots all of the same ability. When Buckley came on v Bolton he looked miles away. And as Jim said, the fact that Tomlinson left to join Mansfield says alot about where hes at. If you put a handful of the youth team in they wouldnt all adapt like a duck to water as Travis has done. 

The fact Wharton, Tomlinson and others haven’t made it says more about our inability to give players a fair whack than their ability. 

And Buckley looked excellent vs Bolton?

[MarkBRFC]

Butterworth looked decent against Bolton.

Buckley looked like he was an under 10 player given a run out in a pre season game for a laugh, he's nowhere near ready.

Edited June 25, 2019 by MarkBRFC

[Admiral Nelsen]

1 hour ago, JoeHarvey said:

The difference between the abilities of a John Buckley and Lewis Travis are minimal. One is a midfielder who would probably sell for £3m in the current market and the other would struggle to get a League One loan. Why? Game time.

and I’m not saying Buckley should’ve played 20 games, I’m just highlighting that our youth players are pretty good yet only one has really made it in a whole two years under TM.

But Travis is 21, Buckley is 19. You do a lot of growing up as a footballer in those two years. 

I'm as enthusiastic about this crop as much as anyone, but ultimately we're nobody's feeder club, we're there to win matches on a Saturday and should play our best XI. Blooding youngsters is important, but you don't do them or the club any favours if you do it before they can genuinely stake a claim to deserve it like Travis clearly was. 

Wish Tomlinson the best, but he looked to me that he wasn't technically good enough to make up for his lack of physicality. Wharton is getting game time at a level appropriate for a defender of his age, let's hope he can make the step up as he develops. 

I really do agree that we can't go wasting this crop of youngsters, but I don't see any reason that we will. Our squad is probably as young as it has been in decades, Mowbray gave I think 4 academy players their debut last year. Made Raya his no. 1, Travis is now a first team fixture. We might have plenty of issues to deal with as a club and a squad, but the manager giving youth a go isn't one of them imo!

[Guest]

I just don't get it. We've got the sixth best academy in the country, and in the last two years we've produced one player? Not good enough. If we aren't playing them then we need to be loaning more of them out, to better clubs. Baffles me that we don't produce more talent it really does. 

Travis just got lucky with the chance he got, and I'm glad he did and he took it well. But imagine if he didn't? He'd probably have gone to a League Two side, or maybe at a push League One and he'd be another Tomlinson.

Raya went to Southport, SOUTHPORT, and came back and got his chance and he's now our first team keeper.

I'm not slating TM really, I just find it odd. What are we getting so wrong?

[SBlue]

Eh?

Four of our best starting 11 are academy players - isn't that pretty good??

[Admiral Nelsen]

Just now, JoeHarvey said:

I just don't get it. We've got the sixth best academy in the country, and in the last two years we've produced one player? Not good enough. If we aren't playing them then we need to be loaning more of them out, to better clubs. Baffles me that we don't produce more talent it really does. 

Travis just got lucky with the chance he got, and I'm glad he did and he took it well. But imagine if he didn't? He'd probably have gone to a League Two side, or maybe at a push League One and he'd be another Tomlinson.

Raya went to Southport, SOUTHPORT, and came back and got his chance and he's now our first team keeper.

I'm not slating TM really, I just find it odd. What are we getting so wrong?

I think that's just it, we aren't getting it wrong. Quite the opposite in fact. We've produced one player for the first XI. Probably closer to half a dozen that are in and around the squad. 

And to be fair the Tomlinsons/Wharton's were from a slightly different age group to the current crop. From that group, Nyambe is a first teamer, Mahoney would be if he didn't up sticks and leave. Raya was only 12 months older.  Given our resources, our academy is prolific!

[Oldgregg86]

I kind of get what joe Harvey is saying. 

We could easily let glad win and Samuel go and promote butter worth and Buckley. What's the difference. You would save on wages allowing a bigger wage budget for better players , the younger lads won't complain about lack of game time. We know Samuel and glad win are not good enough butter worth and Buckley could well be and if there not they wouldn't do much worse. Scott Wharton another who should have been promoted instead of buying Paul Downing . At some point they need a chance and with Samuel, gladwin , imo Evans they are wasting resources and blocking a pathway. If we aren't going to invest for promotion and by invest I mean buy first team ready quality then the next best option is the youth. 

Downing may well be a good addition for next season but come may we are back to square one. What happened to building year upon year. 

Tony has give a few lads a game or two. That isn't blooding youngsters 

[Mattyblue]

Raya was about 18 when he went to Southport. An absolute baby for a keeper. 

So there’s nothing to read into the fact they are non league.

Edited June 25, 2019 by Mattyblue

[Admiral Nelsen]

Just now, Oldgregg86 said:

I kind of get what joe Harvey is saying. 

We could easily let glad win and Samuel go and promote butter worth and Buckley. What's the difference. You would save on wages allowing a bigger wage budget for better players , the younger lads won't complain about lack of game time. We know Samuel and glad win are not good enough butter worth and Buckley could well be and if there not they wouldn't do much worse. Scott Wharton another who should have been promoted instead of buying Paul Downing . At some point they need a chance and with Samuel, gladwin , imo Evans they are wasting resources and blocking a pathway. If we aren't going to invest for promotion and by invest I mean buy first team ready quality then the next best option is the youth. 

Downing may well be a good addition for next season but come may we are back to square one. What happened to building year upon year. 

Tony has give a few lads a game or two. That isn't blooding youngsters 

Fair enough, but you need to give a few lads a game or two before you blood them! If Buckley, Butterworth, Magloire and Joe RC aren't getting increasingly more games as time goes on, then we have a problem, but they're all boys at present.

Think the P. Downing case is a really good example. He was exactly what we needed as a squad player at that time, playing a lot of games in our promotion push which coincided with a massive unbeaten run. A 20 year old Scott Wharton may have been able to step up, but equally just making a few understandable rookie mistakes could have easily been the difference between a top 2 finish and a top 6 finish, which could have seen another season at L1 level which would have been a total disaster.

It's tempting to think that squad players could be replaced by kids. Some could be, but it's a balance. Totally agree that players who don't contribute like Gladwin should never get in the way of a youngster. Equally we need to make sure that we have a squad that can do the business, that will involve squad players with experience alongside youngsters who are ready, and to be honest I think this is exactly what we have been doing over the last few years. 

 

[roversfan99]

4 hours ago, JoeHarvey said:

The fact Wharton, Tomlinson and others haven’t made it says more about our inability to give players a fair whack than their ability. 

And Buckley looked excellent vs Bolton?

I dont disagree with your point in terms of Mowbrays reluctance to give game time to youngsters, it frustrated me a little at the end of the season when we had nothing to play for. To be honest, 2 of the main 3 I wanted to see more of, Chapman, Davenport and Butterworth are not academy graduates. My main disagreement was that the only thing splitting the young lads is game time, its totally baseless to imply that Tomlinson would have been equally as effective as Travis.

In regards to Buckley, would have to totally disagree, he looked a little boy lost admittedly in a fairly short half hour cameo. Magloire didnt impress me either with his inability to head a ball. Butterworth looked right at home however. Came straight on and made something happen.

[Guest]

It’s not like I’m saying we should play all our 23’s every week. I’m just merely making the point that only 1 player has made it into our first team and stuck in 2 and a bit seasons. 

That just isn’t good enough for the sixth best academy in the country. It simply isn’t.

Yes we let Callum Wright go, and Mahoney. But there’s too much stop start in general. The fact Magloire got one game against Wigan and played well should’ve been enough to get him at least another match before the season was out, but he didn’t get a single chance after it? Mental to me. Okay 

[SBlue]

Magloire played the game after at Hillsborough and was pretty bobbins tbh

[Mattyblue]

Some of the lads aren’t currently up to it Joe. Unfortunately Magloire was one of them, looked very weak. Wharton can’t get into 4th division sides. Tomlinson has had a host of off field problems.

The way it is with young players. Their obviously is a pathway, agree Travis took too long to get in the side, no arguments, but some of the others aren’t currently good enough.

[arbitro]

5 hours ago, S8 & Blue said:

Magloire played the game after at Hillsborough and was pretty bobbins tbh

He played well in his debut against Wigan and handled the thug Garner really well. At Wednesday he was part of a rancid team performance when individual mistakes (not by him) cost us at least three goals. 

[Stuart]

6 hours ago, S8 & Blue said:

Magloire played the game after at Hillsborough and was pretty bobbins tbh

Magloire is looking better and better each game and he took his chance after a nervy few minutes when he got his first team debut.

[Guest]

It's really easy to sit here and say, well Travis is good enough. Anybody can say that, because he's shown that. My point is that you just simply don't know who could be good enough if given the same 20 games he was given. It's a cop out to just say, well Travis is just better than the rest of them. Because in another world he wouldn't have had a go either!

[Mattyblue]

A load of academy lads aren’t going to get 20 games, as an example I wouldn’t want Magloire to get them as I don’t think he’s ready and needs loaning out to toughen up, especially in the air.

You’re being a bit naive here.

Edited June 26, 2019 by Mattyblue

[SBlue]

It's the chicken and the egg. If they are good enough, they will find their way into the matchday squad - if they aren't, we can't afford to play them for 20 games.

In order to give them the games, they have to be pretty much ready as Travis/Lenihan/Nyambe were, that's the point.