Tony Mowbray Discussion

[jim mk2]

2 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

And that’s absolutely fine mate. You don’t see it, many do.

Think I saw a stat saying we currently have the most points we’ve ever had at this point of a championship season? So, erm yeah ok ??

 It's where we end up in May - that will be the time to judge.

 

[Paul Mani]

6 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

 It's where we end up in May - that will be the time to judge.

 

Absolutely. But my answer was in relation to you saying you hadn’t seen any progress this season. Hence the relevance of the stat.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Paul Mani

[Mattyblue]

We were flying this time last season (similar points to now) until we went to Brentford... it fell apart from there.

So judging ‘progression’ on how many points we have in February’s is a bit daft.

[K-Hod]

59 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

No, I pretty much just said that:

a) I’d give him until the very point where I could no longer see him taking us on.

 b) that I believe med/long term that we may need fresh blood to get us to our goals.

My point was in relation to those who, in spite of the manager doing a a decent enough job, want him simply removed and then cannot understand why some are worried at what we might get next? 

 

I get why people are worried about that, but it just seems a bit defeatist and lacking in ambition....

[Paul Mani]

Just now, Mattyblue said:

We were flying this time last season (similar points to now) until we went to Brentford... it fell apart from there.

So judging ‘progression’ on how many points we have in February’s is a bit daft.

I’m not ‘judging’ anything. I’m adding context to the argument about whether or not we are progressing. But I could make a similar ‘daft’ assertion on those saying there has been no progress if were saying it cannot be judged until May.

The Final judgement will be made in May no doubt when results and all factors are taken into account.

[jim mk2]

3 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Absolutely. But my answer was in relation to you saying you hadn’t seen any progress this season. Hence the relevance of the stat.

Where we are this morning is just a snapshot of our league position. It goes up and down.  If he gets us into the playoffs I'll admit we are making progress 

[Paul Mani]

Just now, K-Hod said:

I get why people are worried about that, but it just seems a bit defeatist and lacking in ambition....

I see what you mean.

For me personally, TM has shown progression every season. Sometimes small, sometimes a little greater. Nothing amazing. However, the fact that I wouldn’t trust Venkies to find a bratwurst in the German Christmas markets DOES effect my feelings on whether a manager who is generally (slowly) progressing us should be removed. It’s not the be all and end all and if I thought we’d stopped moving forwards then I’d be willing to spin the Venkys wheel and hope we didn’t get Paul Ince back on a 5yr contract.

[Mattyblue]

5 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

I’m not ‘judging’ anything. I’m adding context to the argument about whether or not we are progressing. But I could make a similar ‘daft’ assertion on those saying there has been no progress if were saying it cannot be judged until May.

The Final judgement will be made in May no doubt when results and all factors are taken into account.

It can’t be judged till May!

Teams can have great a first half of a season, best for years and still finish below where they were the year before.

They haven't then ‘progressed’, have they! 

[Paul Mani]

4 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

Where we are this morning is just a snapshot of our league position. It goes up and down.  If he gets us into the playoffs I'll admit we are making progress 

Exactly. I would feel exactly the same as you if I trusted the Venkys. My mind would be set that IF we don’t make the playoffs then he HAS to go. But what I’m saying is that because I don’t trust the V’s then I’ll be happy to continue with TM if for example we finish with 8 more points than last season and 8th.

 

[Paul Mani]

Just now, Mattyblue said:

It can’t be judged till May!

Teams can have great a first half of a season, best for years and still finish below where they were the year before.

They haven't then ‘progressed’, have they! 

I’m fully aware (as stated) that this cannot be judged until May.

HOWEVER.....we are currently debating the ‘progress’ of the manager / team as of today, which is impossible to do unless we look at where we are right now. I’m not talking about after the home win and I’m not pushing any positive spin on anything. I’m simply saying that as we sit here, today the stats would suggest that we have progressed since last season. Fewer goals conceded, more points, more clean sheets etc etc.

The end of the season will provide us with the final judgement of course.

[47er]

42 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

I think you’re REALLY struggling to tell anyone that there’s been no progression since he took over from Coyle. Sure everyone has opinions for and against but the stats pretty much do the job.

 

I'm not really struggling because I never said this in the first place!!!!

Those are your words which you made up and tried to put in my mouth!!

[47er]

17 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

I see what you mean.

For me personally, TM has shown progression every season. Sometimes small, sometimes a little greater. Nothing amazing. However, the fact that I wouldn’t trust Venkies to find a bratwurst in the German Christmas markets DOES effect my feelings on whether a manager who is generally (slowly) progressing us should be removed. It’s not the be all and end all and if I thought we’d stopped moving forwards then I’d be willing to spin the Venkys wheel and hope we didn’t get Paul Ince back on a 5yr contract.

Too little, too slow. A manager determined on promotion would have strengthened the defence when he had the chance.

He didn't----twice!

[Mashed Potatoes]

Just now, 47er said:

Too little, too slow. A manager determined on promotion would have strengthened the defence when he had the chance.

He didn't----twice!

He has strengthened the defence which is why we are conceding fewer goals.

[Bigdoggsteel]

8 minutes ago, 47er said:

Too little, too slow. A manager determined on promotion would have strengthened the defence when he had the chance.

He didn't----twice!

The defence is improved though? 

 

[tomphil]

59 minutes ago, 47er said:

Too little, too slow. A manager determined on promotion would have strengthened the defence when he had the chance.

He didn't----twice!

Agree on the determined bit its always come across as we'll just keep doing what we do the way i do it and hope something comes off.  If not we won't worry we'll just plod on. A very comfortable situation to be in and a very good job for a manager who seems to have found a formula of avoiding real pressure whilst doing just enough to keep everyone quiet.

Quite an achievement really given all the circumstances and if he left tomorrow he'd leave us in far better shape than he found us. How long he can work this current formula without making a bold stride to push us on before we inevitably start to go backwards remains to be seen.

[Stuart]

2 hours ago, Paul Mani said:

No, I pretty much just said that:

a) I’d give him until the very point where I could no longer see him taking us on.

 b) that I believe med/long term that we may need fresh blood to get us to our goals.

My point was in relation to those who, in spite of the manager doing a a decent enough job, want him simply removed and then cannot understand why some are worried at what we might get next? 

So we have to wait until YOU decide when that is? That’s interesting.

Meanwhile others, who you deride, have ALREADY seen enough to know that Mowbray is a prone to runs of games - good and bad - which maintain a midtable position for a club that needs promotion - despite him having had the budget to aim higher.

Even now, we are doing well because our team picks itself. There aren’t enough options for Mowbray to start tinkering just to keep players happy. Wait until we have a few back and the rotation policy begins again.

Being “worried at what we might get next” is exactly why we ended up with Bowyer for too long which took us on a downward trajectory ultimately ending in relegation. A bloke who couldn’t find a place in the team for Josh King ahead of Jason Lowe. This is exactly where we are again under Mowbray. He couldn’t find a place for Rothwell but persevered with Bennett for so long. We’ve heard this doom-mongering about “who we might get” before. It should NOT be an excuse to accommodate mediocrity. Yet it is.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Stuart

[joey_big_nose]

I would just make the point that obviously he is not going to get the sack when we are near the top of the form table and doing well in the league.

Those who want him gone will need to wait for the next major run of losses, and then he will be under pressure.

As those who want him gone think this run of losses is a certainty they shouldn't have long to wait.

Personally I was for him going in December, but now with the up turn of form willing to see what happens. When the data changes opinions change.

I would suggest for Stuart and Jim et Al you need to hope for a run of defeats. 

[Amo]

14 minutes ago, Stuart said:

So we have to wait until YOU decide when that is? That’s interesting.

Meanwhile others, who you deride, have ALREADY seen enough to know that Mowbray is a prone to runs of games - good and bad - which maintain a midtable position for a club that needs promotion - despite him having had the budget to aim higher.

Even now, we are doing well because our team picks itself. There aren’t enough options for Mowbray to start tinkering just to keep players happy. Wait until we have a few back and the rotation policy begins again.

Being “worried at what we might get next” is exactly why we ended up with Bowyer for too long which took us on a downward trajectory ultimately ending in relegation. A bloke who couldn’t find a place in the team for Josh King ahead of Jason Lowe. This is exactly where we are again under Mowbray. He couldn’t find a place for Rothwell but persevered with Bennett for so long. We’ve heard this doom-mongering about “who we might get” before. It should NOT be an excuse to accommodate mediocrity. Yet it is.

Top banana

[roversfan99]

4 hours ago, Paul Mani said:

I don’t understand why there are people who cannot understand why fans may want to hang onto Mowbray in fear of the alternatives....anyone who has followed our club for the last decade should see how terrible the club has been at appointing good managers. Even Mowbray, who has been a relative success, should not have got the job when he did. It’s pure luck that that one worked out.

Which brings me back to the point that most fans make which is that they don’t believe for one second that TM is doing a bad job. Of course there’s some of us who think we may need a better manager med/long term in order to achieve our goals but the utter dread of what could turn up at the club after him is REAL!

Im as far from risk averse as anyone out there but my god, I’ll take Mowbray for as long as it takes to say 100% he cannot take us any further. Because history tells me that the next manager of Venkys reign is likely to be more Coyle or Kean than, errrrm well Tony Mowbray.

Out of interest, you was quite strong of the belief that Venkys would do anything to get us into the Premier League and are only hindered by FFP. On the flip side, you are also terrified of what they will do post Mowbray. Could you not argue that these 2 mindsets are at odds with one another?

I still dont think that fear of the alternatives is a valid reason in isolation, especially when you are suggesting your own personal opinion on what you would do. If you think Mowbray is the man to get us into the Premier League, then fine, but if not, it has no logic to accept mediocrity rather than being willing to gamble, because quite frankly, what is the point?

[Paul Mani]

17 minutes ago, Stuart said:

So we have to wait until YOU decide when that is? That’s interesting.

Meanwhile others, who you deride, have ALREADY seen enough to know that Mowbray is a prone to runs of games - good and bad - which maintain a midtable position for a club that needs promotion - despite him having had the budget to aim higher.

Even now, we are doing well because our team picks itself. There aren’t enough options for Mowbray to start tinkering just to keep players happy. Wait until we have a few back and the rotation policy begins again.

Being “worried at what we might get next” is exactly why we ended up with Bowyer for too long which took us on a downward trajectory ultimately ending in relegation. A bloke who couldn’t find a place in the team for Josh King ahead of Jason Lowe. This is exactly where we are again under Mowbray. He couldn’t find a place for Rothwell but persevered with Bennett for so long. We’ve heard this doom-mongering about “who we might get” before. It should NOT be an excuse to accommodate mediocrity. Yet it is.

No Stuey, you don’t have to wait for me or anyone else. As I’ve said you (and everyone else) is more than welcome to your opinion.

For what seems like 20th time - My point was in relation to those aghast that fans aren’t keen on rolling the Venkys dice for another manager when this one is doing well enough (right now at least when looking at the stats). Just an attempt at a discussion and some context around a pretty common theme on here.

In relation to the runs, I think they’re pretty common place in the championship. Mainly because of how competitive it is. That said, if we could prevent them it would help us to kick on.

Mediocrity is being happy with finishing mid table on a mid table budget. Nobody wants that. The manager, the club, players or the fans. Based on your argument, should we finish in or just outside of the playoffs then I’d imagine you’d have to be looking at a 180 on Mowbray. Mid table won’t be good enough for me either. But then my stance is that I have serious misgivings as to whether TM can overachieve.

[Paul Mani]

3 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Out of interest, you was quite strong of the belief that Venkys would do anything to get us into the Premier League and are only hindered by FFP. On the flip side, you are also terrified of what they will do post Mowbray. Could you not argue that these 2 mindsets are at odds with one another?

I still dont think that fear of the alternatives is a valid reason in isolation, especially when you are suggesting your own personal opinion on what you would do. If you think Mowbray is the man to get us into the Premier League, then fine, but if not, it has no logic to accept mediocrity rather than being willing to gamble, because quite frankly, what is the point?

No correlation at all. One is their desire to spend their money. The other is their ability to find the best manager.

I also stated clearly that it was not the only (isolated) reason. I just said that Venkys inability to find great managers was a valid consideration when deciding whether to bullet a manager who statistically HAS taken us forward even though it’s not been as quickly as we would like. 

 

[roversfan99]

13 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

No correlation at all. One is their desire to spend their money. The other is their ability to find the best manager.

I also stated clearly that it was not the only (isolated) reason. I just said that Venkys inability to find great managers was a valid consideration when deciding whether to bullet a manager who statistically HAS taken us forward even though it’s not been as quickly as we would like. 

 

No I wasnt saying that it was your only reason, but I personally think that if any decision is plagued by fear of appointing another Coyle or Kean then we might as well pack up now!

[tomphil]

Credit again here when it's due. Very impressive how he's galvanized the troops again with so many missing.

I'll say again the lack of wholesale options is at times working in our favour. That's not a criticism he's still making subtle changes but his hand is forced somewhat. Gives them an opportunity to finally gel.

Twitter old soak post something positive for a change. Come out of your own 'dark place' for a change and be a man. Only dirty little weasels hide away waiting for opportunities to shed bad light on people.

Edited February 15, 2020 by tomphil

[Inglorious basturk]

I think what frustrates the most is we have these tremendous games and runs and just when we are in grasping distance we blow it and it seems as regular as clockwork .... maybe not this time . It’s the hope that kills you . 

[tomphil]

I'm not expecting anything this season now.

Just want to see them try and win every week and not revert to safety first. No point really we'll finish midtable ish so might as well just have a go every week.

At least that way you know they've given it a shot.