Tony Mowbray Discussion

[Paul Mani]

15 hours ago, Mercer said:

Agree.

The one success criteria this season is promotion - full stop.

There can be no excuses - Mowbray has been backed to the hilt and he will have had four and a half seasons at it.

Play-offs without getting up is failure.

Up or out I say and if it becomes clear as the season progresses that we aren't going to make it then that is the time the axe should fall.

I would never have appointed him in the first place and I think there have been several times over his tenure when a lot of clubs would have given him the boot.

Nope, you’ve gone completely west (once again) with this in an attempt to tighten the noose around the managers neck.

Mowbrays stated target is top 6. He’s been backed (in context) to reach that mark and if he doesn’t get into the top 6 then imo he has failed and it will likely be time for a change. In order for his target to be “up or out” our overall budget would have to be top 2 and it’s not even cumulatively top 10 in size.

Edited November 9, 2020 by Paul Mani

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

In order for his target to be “up or out” our overall budget would have to be top 2 and it’s not even cumulatively top 10 in size.

So why are you suggesting he gets sacked if he doesn't reach the PO's?

Edited November 9, 2020 by Hoochie Bloochie Mama

[tomphil]

If you're getting a 12th placed budget year on year and finishing around there fair enough. If teams with 15 th placed budgets are finishing above you year on year though then maybe it's time to look at what they are doing. Or even their managers.

Significant progress needed this season over a marginal gain. At some point soon there'll be a strong squad to pick from. In truth the first 11 should more or less pick itself. It won't though and that's where we'll fall down if we do and that's why all eyes are on him now.

[Paul Mani]

Just now, tomphil said:

If you're getting a 12th placed budget year on year and finishing around there fair enough. If teams with 15 th placed budgets are finishing above you year on year though then maybe it's time to look at what they are doing. Or even their managers.

Significant progress needed this season over a marginal gain. At some point soon there'll be a strong squad to pick from. In truth the first 11 should more or less pick itself. It won't though and that's where we'll fall down if we do and that's why all eyes are on him now.

It’s too early to speculate on this seasons rankings yet but Rovers have had roughly the 13th - 15th ranked budget in the Championship over the last two seasons. I’d imagine that may have risen to 10th-ish in the current climate, but any Rovers manager knows that they need to overachieve to get us up. Overachieving is something that Mowbray hasn’t demonstrated at Rovers so far, but the expectation of all interested parties (fans, players, board etc) is that we will be in the top 6 come May and that is why there’s never been so much pressure on the manager. Rightly so.

[Paul Mani]

6 minutes ago, tomphil said:

If you're getting a 12th placed budget year on year and finishing around there fair enough. If teams with 15 th placed budgets are finishing above you year on year though then maybe it's time to look at what they are doing. Or even their managers.

Significant progress needed this season over a marginal gain. At some point soon there'll be a strong squad to pick from. In truth the first 11 should more or less pick itself. It won't though and that's where we'll fall down if we do and that's why all eyes are on him now.

I agree, he’s somehow assembled a top 6 squad on a mid table budget and deserves a lot of credit.

BUT...the time is now. Feels very much like ‘that’ season under Bowyer. All eyes on the manager. 

[tomphil]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

I agree, he’s somehow assembled a top 6 squad on a mid table budget and deserves a lot of credit.

BUT...the time is now. Feels very much like ‘that’ season under Bowyer. All eyes on the manager. 

I agree top 2 is a fantasy top 6 is the realistic aim.  Even that is a fair jump from 12 th so personally I don't see us quite making it.

Just want to have a proper go at it not just hide behind the slight improvement line. He's just got 4 from 6 in a difficult situation so the platform is still there. He's good at that kind of thing though but when it comes to putting the foot on the gas and keeping it there less so.

 

This is I feel is very much his defining season.

[Mercer]

1 hour ago, Paul Mani said:

Nope, you’ve gone completely west (once again) with this in an attempt to tighten the noose around the managers neck.

Mowbrays stated target is top 6. He’s been backed (in context) to reach that mark and if he doesn’t get into the top 6 then imo he has failed and it will likely be time for a change. In order for his target to be “up or out” our overall budget would have to be top 2 and it’s not even cumulatively top 10 in size.

Bullsh1t.

What you are really saying is that automatic promotion each season is the preserve of the two clubs with the biggest budget!  Look back in history and look at the sides who have made the jump on relatively small budgets (Sheff U for one) and, conversely, those who have stayed marooned on relatively big budgets.

Top 3 to 6 is not a benchmark for success unless you actually win the play-offs otherwise you might as well finish 7th, 8th, 9th etc. 

If Mowbray doesn't get us up this season then, IMO, after four and a half years and after being backed to the hilt (how many managers in this league get £12million to spend on two strikers) he will have categorically failed as we will be in the same league as were were when he arrived after also suffering the ignominy of relegation to Division 1 when his express objective on joining the club was to keep us in the Championship that season (his words at Blues in Feb 2019).

Anything other than promotion this season (in what is a wide open bang average league) is, IMO, indefensible and merely confirms my long held belief that Mowbray and his coaching staff are way below par. 

I am sicked and tired of, IMO, all the 'slow build, evolution, on a journey' cr@p from Mowbray that sadly some, including our owners, seem to buy.  IMO, it's merely self preservation stuff from Mowbray.  

Edited November 9, 2020 by Mercer

[tomphil]

When it comes to the middle clutches of clubs budgets aren't always the be all and end all. 

We have a clutch of young players stepped/stepping up over recent years that don't really factor in that. Cheap wages, no fees, academy budget separate from 1st team etc.

How many clubs of our ilk are funding a 3 mill per annum Cat 1 academy ?

It's paying dividends in recent seasons so surely that gives us an advantage over a good few. As long as they get used correctly and continue to progress of course. 

What would it cost to recruit that back line on Sat even from the lower leagues ?  Not that they are anywhere near the finished article but its providing the manager of BRFC his own talent pool to pick from 

Theoretically surely that adds to the budget.

[47er]

1 hour ago, tomphil said:

If you're getting a 12th placed budget year on year and finishing around there fair enough. If teams with 15 th placed budgets are finishing above you year on year though then maybe it's time to look at what they are doing. Or even their managers.

Significant progress needed this season over a marginal gain. At some point soon there'll be a strong squad to pick from. In truth the first 11 should more or less pick itself. It won't though and that's where we'll fall down if we do and that's why all eyes are on him now.

Its disingenuous in any case to try to make a direct link between transfer money available and inevitable success eg your team can't make it unless it has more money than the other clubs.

Look at how far Howard Kendall took us on nowt.

[Sparks Rover]

14 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Can I asked why? 

Cos we are Blackburn Rovers and they are Luton Town.  So, you think we should be below Luton? You praise their manager but you wouldn't have him here....?

Edited November 9, 2020 by Sparks Rover

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

When Bonleh first got promoted under Dyche they had the smallest budget in the league as I recall. 

The manager is far more important than any budget, however there aren't many managers who can do 'more with less'. Quality managers are a rarity, which is why the decision to pass on Warnock was a epic failure by the clowns who run our club. 

[matt83]

When it comes to the relative success or failure of this season I’d first like to hear directly from our illustrious CEO. Does the manager have targets. If so what are those targets and who sets them, the manager himself or a higher authority. Then providing there is a target what happens if he fails to achieve it.

Personally, I’d be astonished if there’s any. Just bumble along in the mid table, then spout the odd sound bite in the press about playoff chase when in reality we’re at least 2 wins off that needing 2-3 teams to lose 2-3 consecutive games. 

[tomphil]

30 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

When Bonleh first got promoted under Dyche they had the smallest budget in the league as I recall. 

The manager is far more important than any budget, however there aren't many managers who can do 'more with less'. Quality managers are a rarity, which is why the decision to pass on Warnock was a epic failure by the clowns who run our club. 

I think there's a few angles on it - the smaller the budget the better the manager you need if you want more than water treading.  The bigger the budget you might get away with someone not great as they'll have enough at their disposal to jeep you competitive despite their flaws and cock ups. However it often needs a big man with big balls to do a big job.

If you want to drive it forwards properly you need a very good manager whatever your budget. Have we ever had any real success here without employing a real good one ?   If you want quality you have to go after it and pay for it, Jack knew that it was his business philosophy.  Get the best staff, pay them well and expect them to do their jobs well. If they don't then shake hands, no hard feelings pay them up let them go and find better.

Edited November 9, 2020 by tomphil

[Blue blood]

37 minutes ago, tomphil said:

I think there's a few angles on it - the smaller the budget the better the manager you need if you want more than water treading.  The bigger the budget you might get away with someone not great as they'll have enough at their disposal to jeep you competitive despite their flaws and cock ups. However it often needs a big man with big balls to do a big job.

Parker at Fulham strikes me as ond of those in the latter category. Not that good but with a good squad got promotion. 

37 minutes ago, tomphil said:

If you want to drive it forwards properly you need a very good manager whatever your budget. Have we ever had any real success here without employing a real good one ?   If you want quality you have to go after it and pay for it, Jack knew that it was his business philosophy.  Get the best staff, pay them well and expect them to do their jobs well. If they don't then shake hands, no hard feelings pay them up let them go and find better.

Totally different approach to us. We haven't got an outstanding candidate- in the proper sense of the word - in all their recruitment. TM is the best we have had and tbh his record isn't exactly great. 

[philipl]

I am sticking my neck out. 

But I think the league is going to be very competitive all season.

Norwich, Bournemouth and Watford for sure have players who were very comfortable in the Premier League but then other clubs have outstanding individuals too.

We have played two of those plus Reading, Swansea and Boro with at least 8 players Mowbray should be able to call on in the reverse fixtures unavailable and we have certainly not been embarrassed. Video footage of the other clubs above us doesn't frighten me either.

And if we are unhappy with our position, what about the much fancied, PNE, Cardiff, Forrest and Derby below us.

OK here comes the rub-

It is going to be as big a challenge making 2nd as 6th. If we are genuine contenders for the play-offs, I think that will by default also mean we are challenging for automatic promotion as well because I can see there being a bunching up at the top this season rather than a top two parade. The gap between 2nd and 7th is currently 3 points with a quarter of the season gone.

[47er]

2 hours ago, tomphil said:

When it comes to the middle clutches of clubs budgets aren't always the be all and end all. 

As Derby are proving!

[tomphil]

27 minutes ago, 47er said:

As Derby are proving!

We proved it plenty as well when we came down as have a few others. Some of these clubs with bigger budgets will have players they don't really want. Many of who might not want to be there just sat on big contracts going through the motions. Also still paying off others and paying back borrowings.

Too simplistic to pin it all on that given all the variables that go into it.

[roversfan99]

This correlation drawn between a crudely calculated position of where we are in the "finance league" is flawed because its nowhere near as simple as that.

I do think that we slighty underestimate the resources that Mowbray has had purely because we havent sold off players to fund signings like most other teams have, so our net spend will compare very favourably to most. Our wage bill will presumably have also really gone up and should be shown in accounts yet to be submitted, since we have had added Johnson, Holtby, Gallagher, Downing, Ayala, Kaminski and the 3 loanees amongst others, there are some serious salary additions since the last published accounts in June 2019.

Then there is time, Mowbray had had more time than anyone in the league bar recently promoted Wycombe and Gareth Ainsworth. Some of the clubs with obviously bigger resources have had key sales and relegation hangovers to deal with.

Proof that judging the manager isnt just dependant on resources can be seen at Preston where their fans have started to really turn far more than we have at Alex Neil and they have had far less money than us. Our top scorer was a player they couldnt afford and we have since signed 2 forwards for much more than that. But Preston have had a few years around the play offs, Neil has had plenty of time and are PNE fans deluded for thinking that they have the right to want a change? No.

Im also unconvinced by this assertion that our squad is top 6 worthy until it proves it. That has to be the target and we are already fighting against a deficit.

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by roversfan99

[chaddyrovers]

54 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Preston where their fans have started to really turn far more than we have at Alex Neil

Why have fans turned on him? 

[roversfan99]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

Why have fans turned on him? 

Im just basing on what my friend is regularly saying, had a quick look online and he certainly isnt alone:

https://www.pne-online.net/forum/index.php?threads/is-it-time.3431751/

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

Im just basing on what my friend is regularly saying, had a quick look online and he certainly isnt alone:

https://www.pne-online.net/forum/index.php?threads/is-it-time.3431751/

I see. 

I dont see what PNE fans expect from Neil when the problem there is lack of investment there from the owner. Dont they have the best players like Davies, Pearson, Browne, Johnson out of contract after this season? 

[roversfan99]

I suspect that there seems to be again that feeling of stagnation, they have dropped from their level from previous seasons. 

For them, that lack of investment from the owner isnt going to be a problem that changes anytime soon.

Everything is relative, issues above the manager doesnt mean that the manager cannot be questioned. When we had Venkys at their destructive worst, it still was correct to be desperate to want Kean out. Man United arent fully functional above Solskjaer but it doesnt change the fact that he is doing a poor job. Therefore I dont necessarily agree with the mindset of "what do they expect" as a general rule. Not sure whether Neil as a specific example is a manager who should be sacked, but I dont think should there be a feeling of stagnation or regression that they should just accept where they are and repress any ambition to go one step further.

To allow 4 key players to have 8 months left on their contracts seems a bit strange to me.

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

I see. 

I dont see what PNE fans expect from Neil when the problem there is lack of investment there from the owner. Dont they have the best players like Davies, Pearson, Browne, Johnson out of contract after this season? 

Lack of investment ? 

He's just bought them a new training ground. Underwrites probably their biggest wage bill ever. And is seeing them through covid.

And people say our fans moan ?

[chaddyrovers]

4 hours ago, tomphil said:

Lack of investment ? 

He's just bought them a new training ground. Underwrites probably their biggest wage bill ever. And is seeing them through covid.

And people say our fans moan ?

and still fans arent happy with him?

[roversfan99]

If they feel that their team has gone backwards or just because they dont have the biggest budget, should they accept mediocrity?