Tony Mowbray Discussion

[Paul Mani]

It’s really simple. His target is the top 6. If he misses it by a hairs breadth, questions will be asked and he may lose his job. If he misses it by a country mile the. He has to go, one way or the other.

Most know that my glass is usually half full when it comes to the manager, but I felt these three games were crucial (Stoke, Swansea & Boro.) The season will be over with anything less than 4pts over the next two games imo.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Paul Mani

[AllRoverAsia]

39 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

As you say, the facts don't lie - the 51 points we got in our relegation season would have kept us up last season.

My posts are designed to show that Mowbray should not be blamed for our relegation. He achieved a 50% improvement on his predecessor in our points per game return; in no walk of life does a manager who achieves that with the same resources as before get described as having "failed". 

 Mowbray himself said that his task was to keep us up.

He failed and said so himself at the time. He got Senior binned, somehow conned the main job possibly on reduced wage and promo bonus and the rest is history.

Oh and he got 2 of his best mates jobs to protect his back and favours his home club in transfers.

Most of that is actually true

Edited January 18, 2021 by AllRoverAsia

[Paul Mani]

1 minute ago, AllRoverAsia said:

 Mowbray himself said that his task was to keep us up.

He failed and said so himself at the time. He got Senior binned, somehow conned the main job possibly on reduced wage and promo bonus and the rest is history.

Oh and he got 2 of his best mates jobs to protect his back and favours hid home club in transfers.

Most of that us actually true

I don’t think he deserved to go in the circumstances. He had 15 games and we went down on the highest points total in the history of the Championship.

[AllRoverAsia]

2 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

I don’t think he deserved to go in the circumstances. He had 15 games and we went down on the highest points total in the history of the Championship.

Actually I don't disagree on that and I have no doubt Vs would have got worse and perhaps we would still be in Div 3!

[perthblue02]

15 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

I don’t think he deserved to go in the circumstances. He had 15 games and we went down on the highest points total in the history of the Championship.

Apart from 2007./08 and 2012/13

[Blue blood]

49 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

Thanks for being polite with your reply.

My posts were more trying to point out to Mercer that the comparisons he was making were unfair regarding relegation and were in my opinion complete nonsense regarding our promotion season when you looked at the facts. I think some of the criticism of Mowbray is grotesque because frequently it is based upon that sort of bending of the facts. I also dislike the personalised abuse of him - "feck off" etc- which I think is totally undeserved. 

I actually think Warnock has a superb record as a Championship manager although I suspect he won't get Middlesbrough up this season.

Yeah I think a fairer comparison with the two managers is that they have turned their clubs round in a fraction of the time which is an uncomfortable fact for TM.

That said neither gig was easy although of the 3 TM arguably had it the hardest. Boro were strong candidates for relegation under the clueless Woodgate so I still think that was a heck of an achievement. TM on balance did inherit a slightly harder situation, but I don't think the situations are vastly dissimilar (squads decimated by cutbacks and an utterly clueless manager.) So I think it's probably a fair comparison albeit not an exact like for like as our situation and the points total required that season was harder. As comparisons go I think it's fairly reasonable and doesn't reflect well on TM.

Similarly with Stoke it's not an exact replica of the situation as he had more time. However Stoke had been a rotten club with many managers experienced and young and up and coming failing there. they had had years of problems so again it wasn't an easy situation. This one is less comparable though as a transfer window and the number of games is significantly different. 

I guess the point is whilst not like for like, is that a) both achieved what was needed and above expectations last season (contrast with TMs plodding on) and b) in less than half the time have their clubs challenging for promotion. Both aspects to me show that they are miles better managers than TM. 

[Blue blood]

My take is:

Season 1 huge ask, didn't achieve it but enough positives and change to keep on. 

Season 2 promoted and achieved what was needed. Not an excellent job given our budget some dicey transfers and first few months in League 1 but a good job nevertheless. 

Season 3 achieved target of mid table. On paper a good job. In practice the latter half of the season  include that horrible winless run, with his basic errors and blowing the budget really take the shine off and alarm bells ringing. With high standards for these reasons he should have gone at the end of this season but I can see the argument that he deserved another chance. I thought the errors outweighed the pros albeit the finish was acceptable 

Season 4 lost the plot. No keepers at the end of the season (and arguably during it), no long term defensive solutions, more money blown, more bizarre decisions, no realistic/serious play off challenge. Combined with last season momentum has to swing towards getting rid. 

Season 5: Same issues from basic errors, total stagnation. Further away from playoffs than last year. Poor defensive recruitment. Has to go.

Anywhere else would have been potted at the end of the last 2 seasons and during this one, of which only after the first season back in the championship would he have any sort of case to argue contrary to sacking  Only at Rovers with no accountability does he ride out the last two seasons and half of this one. 

Incidentally like Souness I think once the errors start to come (second half of our first championship return season) then it's a downhill slope from there and it's hard to recover from. The trick is to stop the rot before it becomes rot. And whereas it may be debatable when that point was we have definitely past it. Got to get rid. 

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

As you say, the facts don't lie - the 51 points we got in our relegation season would have kept us up last season.

My posts are designed to show that Mowbray should not be blamed for our relegation. He achieved a 50% improvement on his predecessor in our points per game return; in no walk of life does a manager who achieves that with the same resources as before get described as having "failed". 

He undoubtedly failed to keep us up, he had a more difficult task than O'Neill and Warnock so its difficult to directly compare (although them 2 are better managers capable of improvements in a much shorter time frame) but he did fail to keep us up even if Coyle was more responsible. This nonsense about points per game extrapolated or his win percentage is all irrelevant, his first task was to keep us up, it was a hard if not impossible one and he failed it.

He wasnt lucky to get promoted though as you say, he was an idiot to dismiss the prospect of a league title but he got us promoted convincingly and comfortably. 

[chaddyrovers]

7 hours ago, frosty said:

And what was the trigger for them becoming a promotion challenging team almost overnight and then getting promoted? Binning the managers that had them finishing about 13th every year and pushing the boat out for an excellent one.

I don't want to have to wait 15 years for that like they had to.......

A change of ownership was the trigger firstly

[chaddyrovers]

6 hours ago, Mercer said:

We are in a mess.

Financially, we've lost something like £15million / season on average since V's took over and IMO, never really threatened to get back to the PL.

The owners have kept paying the bills and despite your numerous claims of your phase of 'tipping point' they keep financing the club. 

6 hours ago, Mercer said:

You say "Mowbray has put a proper football infrastructure in place, proper football recruitment and Scouting departments in place plus data analysis department" - well what feckin good has it done? 

Plenty of good and its investment for now and the future going forward. It's not just about the short term but long term. 

6 hours ago, Mercer said:

Mowbray did get us up at 1st attempt from League 1 but he took us down in the first place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  We were the best resourced club in League 1 but, IMO, we unconvincingly limped home behind the mighty Wigan

Mowbray said at Blues back in Feb 2019 that he was appointed to keep the club up in the Championship.  HE FAILED.   

O'Neill and Warnock were appointed by Stoke and Middlesbrough last season to keep them in the Championship

Firstly Michael O'Neill had a lot more time there to turn it around. Warnock took over Boro who werent in the bottom 3 when he took over. 

When Mowbray took over here we had 15 games to go and he got 22 points. The problem was Coyle and his awful record here. 

Mowbray delivered what his objective was. Promotion was delivered. 

 

6 hours ago, Mercer said:

IMO, Mowbray's stuff about being a possession based, progressive, attacking team is a myth, just bullsh1t for the owners and his band of happy clappers

There that term of 'happy clappers' instead of accepting other people views who want to back Mowbray. I can accept that you want a change without any insults. 

[roversfan99]

It totally undermines any defence of Mowbray to totally dismiss the relegation. Obviously Coyle was worse than Mowbray and carries much more blame but no one has ever tried to defend Coyle because we all know how bad he was. But there is no use extrapolating 15 results at the end of the season, quite a few against teams with nothing to play for to try and calculate where we might have finished. His first task was to keep us up, a difficult task, and he failed. It is as black and white as that. 

Equally, I feel that Mercer is undermining his points by dismissing the fact that Mowbray got us promoted.

Ultimately that first season and a half are not why so many are in favour of a managerial change anyway.

Regarding all of the supposed long term upgrades, the success of such projects only become tangible and measureable when they start leading to better results. If they do indeed exist and lay foundations to improve us, they still dont strengthen the managers position as another manager can use them, Mowbray wont get the scouting and analysis tools as part of his settlement!

[JHRover]

Mowbray's initial target was to keep us up. That's what he was appointed to do, that was the task he was given when he got the job. I am confident that he didn't get the job based on his ability to get us out of League One or because he told them we were doomed but he would sort it out in years to come.

He got it because he told them he would keep us in the Championship and it was all hands to the pump in doing that. It seems one of the reasons he got the gig was because he agreed to work with existing coaching staff in Lowe, Dunn and Benson (always a bad sign that a club would impose coaches on a manager to save a few quid rather than have enough faith in the manager to select his own staff and back him on those decisions).

Mowbray failed to achieve his target, we were relegated. Do I blame him for relegation? Not at all, we were close to staying up, we had decent form over that spell of games and the cause of relegation was what happened before he arrived. Still I expect he told them he could do it and he didn't so target missed.

Something happened in the summer of 2017 where he quickly went off to India, had words with the head honchos and got what he wanted - a long term contract, Paul Senior down the road, Mark Venus in as his assistant and in the process effectively secured complete control over the club on a day to day basis and also a good chunk of backing from the owners. Quite impressive for a handful of meetings. 

The result was that we went into League One with one of the most expensive and talent laden squads that League has ever seen. Promotion was the requirement and it was achieved. Job done. It was a success, but not an overachievement in any measure. Comparisons to Sunderland and Ipswich are no more relevant than comparisons to Wigan, Bolton, Wolves, Norwich and many others who bounced straight back.

Mowbray gets a promotion on his CV, an improved contract and retains control over the club, earning himself bucket loads of respect and patience from the fans to crack on and do it his way. He claims he has advised the owners to not spend heavily in search of promotion and instead follow the slow build approach of assembling a quality laden squad over a few years which will allegedly stand us in better stead.

A couple of mid-table finishes without ever seriously even threatening the top 6 never mind any higher. Not great but not bad.

By now it is clear the slow build isn't delivering, we just limp along going around in circles.

The problem for me isn't so much that we aren't in the top 6 this season. It's that at no point in the last 3 years have we ever gone close to establishing ourselves in there and if anything now we are moving further away from it the longer Mowbray is in charge. Remember previously he relied so heavily on the dressing room he inherited - Graham, Mulgrew, Bennett, Conway, Evans - and the more we move on from such players the further away we seem to get.

I've seen nothing, absolutely nothing, in the last 18 months to make me thing there is any real point in handing him another season to repeat the same mistakes. This isn't a bloke who is going to suddenly change his ways or his habits or his beliefs. 

There is an incredible level of negativity and narrow mindedness knocking about online from people who seem to think Mowbray is some sort of messiah who knows it all and no other manager could ever deliver what he can or that there are scant alternatives out there.

Actually for clued up and ambitious clubs there are many, many, many options out there, more than you could possibly get through discussions with all options, yet the attitude at this club is just 'can't do' rather than 'can do'. Think small rather than think big. Find reasons why we can't do things rather than reasons we can. We can't compete, we can't afford a new pitch, we can't expect better, we can't get a better manager or coaching staff. Repeat endlessly and convince yourselves it is the truth.

[Mercer]

43 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

The owners have kept paying the bills and despite your numerous claims of your phase of 'tipping point' they keep financing the club. 

Plenty of good and its investment for now and the future going forward. It's not just about the short term but long term. 

Firstly Michael O'Neill had a lot more time there to turn it around. Warnock took over Boro who werent in the bottom 3 when he took over. 

When Mowbray took over here we had 15 games to go and he got 22 points. The problem was Coyle and his awful record here. 

Mowbray delivered what his objective was. Promotion was delivered. 

 

There that term of 'happy clappers' instead of accepting other people views who want to back Mowbray. I can accept that you want a change without any insults. 

So far they've kept financing the club.  As sure as tomorrow is Tuesday, a tipping point will come - seen it too many times in business.

So, what has the investment in infrastructure brought us?  Players good enough to get us promoted, no.  An improved league position, no.  Improved players who we sell for big money, no.  So what is the point?  A client of mine had sales outstripping his manufacturing capacity so he invested in new manufacturing plant.  He lowered his unit production costs, fulfilled the demand for his product and substantially improved his unit and overall profitability.  An investment that WORKED producing TANGIBLE results here and now.

Flip side - O'Neill and Warnock have brought about improvements in Stoke and M'boro  which see them both above Rovers in something like a qurter of the time Mowbray has had.  That is not evolution and a slow build but a feckin result.

Mowbray FAILED in his objective of keeping us up.  Analogy, you get married and promise father-in-law you will look after his daughter.  You give her a slap one night but bring her flowers home from work the next day - have you kept your promise and looked after her?

Don't be so sensitive.  If folk call me a 'boo boy' then fine.  If folk think you are a happy clapper just smile and accept it.

Edited January 19, 2021 by Mercer

[chaddyrovers]

1 hour ago, Mercer said:

So far they've kept financing the club.  As sure as tomorrow is Tuesday, a tipping point will come - seen it too many times in business.

Mercer, you have mention a tipping point scenario so many times I've lost count, you been better off going on the ITV show instead.

1 hour ago, Mercer said:

So, what has the investment in infrastructure brought us?  Players good enough to get us promoted, no.  An improved league position, no.  Improved players who we sell for big money, no.  So what is the point?  

You keep looking at things as short term instead looking in the long term and benefit of the club. 

A proper scouting and recruitment departments which we havent had since Allardyce time at the club. 

Players have improved and we have players who would bring in money to club like Armstrong, Dack, Kaminski, Travis. 

1 hour ago, Mercer said:

Mowbray FAILED in his objective of keeping us up. 

He got 22 points from 15 games. He did a good job that season. And it was Coyle fault we went down. His defensive signings were awful. Brown, Greer, Hendrie were 3 useless signings. I wonder why you wont attach any blame to Coyle?funny that really. 

 

1 hour ago, Mercer said:

Don't be so sensitive

You dont cant stand that people dont want rid Mowbray and used terms like that wind people. But it just weaken your point and arguments. 

[roversfan99]

How can a manager who came in with the admittedly difficult task of trying to keep a club up be considered to have done a good job that season if we went down?!

[booth]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

Mercer, you have mention a tipping point scenario so many times I've lost count, you been better off going on the ITV show instead.

 

 

You dont cant stand that people dont want rid Mowbray and used terms like that wind people. But it just weaken your point and arguments. 

Yeah you’d never try to wind anyone up would you 🤣

[TheRoversReturn]

On 04/08/2019 at 00:28, Neal said:

No lessons learned. No possession football. No plan B. No Joe Rothwell. No defence. No defenders signed. No method. No Ryan Nyambe. No positivity. No progress. No idea. 

 

You're a nice bloke, you've done a good job but this is as far you will take us. Don't ruin your legacy, do the right thing and step aside. Charlton are relegation fodder so what does that make us? 

Go. 

This is the first post from over eighteen months ago on this thread. Ok, so Nyambe and Rothwell play more now. But they've stagnated and might bugger off for free sooner rather than later. Other than that, has anything changed? 370 - yep, count 'em! -pages on a "Mowbray Out" thread means that he's not the man to take us into the Premier League. He wasn't 18 months ago, he isn't now and he won't be in the future.

How about a request to change this thread title to "The Never-ending Story"?

Certainly, our attempt to break into the playoff positions is starting to feel that way!!!

Edited January 19, 2021 by TheRoversReturn

[RoversClitheroe]

6 minutes ago, TheRoversReturn said:

This is the first post from over eighteen months ago on this thread. Ok, so Nyambe and Rothwell play more now. But they've stagnated and might bugger off for free sooner rather than later. Other than that, has anything changed? 370 - yep, count 'em! -pages on a "Mowbray Out" thread means that he's not the man to take us into the Premier League. He wasn't 18 months ago, he isn't now and he won't be in the future.

How about a request to change this thread title to "The Never-ending Story"?

Certainly, our attempt to break into the playoff positions is starting to feel that way!!!

Great spot and one I fully agree with

[Paul Mani]

I think Mowbray is feeling the pressure of his early season eulogising!

Everyday there’s something else now...the pitch, the schedule, COVID, injuries, budget, size of the analyst room etc...when a manager starts to do that it’s because basically they’ve blown their load.

He’s been talking about this journey and our ‘transition’ into this possession based team for 18 months but the end of the road is in his sights now. This is his team, playing his way and sadly it’s not working. That leaves managers in a really tight spot...

I really hope it doesn’t become to painful for him. I genuinely think he’s a good guy who’s done a good job but he’s in danger of ruining all of his own hard work.

Those suggesting he’s immoral and topping up his pension are wrong. By all accounts he’s and absolute gentleman and no one works harder. Spends a lot of time away from his family.

Really hope he can turn it around but it’s starting to feel like the beginning of the end for him. Be nice if he got the Celtic job tbh...then he could leave with his head held high and we can freshen it up. Let’s see.

[Paul Mani]

12 hours ago, perthblue02 said:

Apart from 2007./08 and 2012/13

Ok, one of the highest. Makes no difference and to sack him after 15 games would’ve exacerbated the ‘basket club’ reputation and more importantly weakened our chances of coming straight back up.

 

[RoversClitheroe]

19 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

I think Mowbray is feeling the pressure of his early season eulogising!

Everyday there’s something else now...the pitch, the schedule, COVID, injuries, budget, size of the analyst room etc...when a manager starts to do that it’s because basically they’ve blown their load.

He’s been talking about this journey and our ‘transition’ into this possession based team for 18 months but the end of the road is in his sights now. This is his team, playing his way and sadly it’s not working. That leaves managers in a really tight spot...

I really hope it doesn’t become to painful for him. I genuinely think he’s a good guy who’s done a good job but he’s in danger of ruining all of his own hard work.

Those suggesting he’s immoral and topping up his pension are wrong. By all accounts he’s and absolute gentleman and no one works harder. Spends a lot of time away from his family.

Really hope he can turn it around but it’s starting to feel like the beginning of the end for him. Be nice if he got the Celtic job tbh...then he could leave with his head held high and we can freshen it up. Let’s see.

Not sure I agree.

One week he was banging on abut stats and how many chances they have, possession etc etc. 

The next week he says he'll judge with his eyes and not stats....

[Ulrich]

13 hours ago, Tom said:

Mowbray took over with 15 games to go and us only 3 points from safety, hardly a lost cause, we had some bad luck in that run in but threw away a few games late on (ffs Gallagher) and had some awful performances to boot, remember Barnsley at home feeling like a surrender. 

When O’Neill took over at Stoke they were 6 points adrift, he had the January window but ultimately he succeeded.

The only facts around our relegation season is we didn’t quite do enough.

As you say, the facts don’t lie.

He should have kept us up, we had the opportunites too, Norwich springs to mind. He screwed up our relegation fight as I believe we should have survived, but he cannot shut a team out. 

The one aspect that pisses me off is the fact he is obsessed with us trying to play like Liverpool. Our formation, playing a deep lying forward with wide forwards, possession with no purpose, lack of cohesion, he just cannot coach. So trying to copy seems foolhardy and we clearly need better. We have good players, we should have our own style, developed to suit our strengths, but alas TM seems to lack originality and creative thought. We need better, the table does not lie, we have stagnated, 3 years is a serious time frame in football. Someone call a cab. 

[oldjamfan1]

34 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Be nice if he got the Celtic job tbh...then he could leave with his head held high and we can freshen it up. Let’s see.

Ha ha I take it you're joking right? I have more chance of getting the Celtic job than Tony Mowbray.

[MarkBRFC]

51 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

I think Mowbray is feeling the pressure of his early season eulogising!

Everyday there’s something else now...the pitch, the schedule, COVID, injuries, budget, size of the analyst room etc...when a manager starts to do that it’s because basically they’ve blown their load.

He’s been talking about this journey and our ‘transition’ into this possession based team for 18 months but the end of the road is in his sights now. This is his team, playing his way and sadly it’s not working. That leaves managers in a really tight spot...

I really hope it doesn’t become to painful for him. I genuinely think he’s a good guy who’s done a good job but he’s in danger of ruining all of his own hard work.

Those suggesting he’s immoral and topping up his pension are wrong. By all accounts he’s and absolute gentleman and no one works harder. Spends a lot of time away from his family.

Really hope he can turn it around but it’s starting to feel like the beginning of the end for him. Be nice if he got the Celtic job tbh...then he could leave with his head held high and we can freshen it up. Let’s see.

Two questions...

1, Why would Celtic want Mowbray back?

2, Do you feel daft for suggesting that we'll finish in the top two after we lost to Watford?

[Ewood Ace]

12 minutes ago, MarkBRFC said:

1, Why would Celtic want Mowbray back?

They wouldn't, the bloke is one of the worst if not the worst manager in their entire history.