Tony Mowbray Discussion

[RoversClitheroe]

1 minute ago, phili said:

It appears TM over ruled the data team who were suggesting Goode and Pickering in the summer and instead went for Kipre and another left back. When these fell through they were then left desperately trying to find replacements in Douglas and Ayala who the data team were vehemently opposed to.

Venky's now believe what was the point in investing in scouting and data if you are going to over rule them and make silly decisions. They have seen the success of Brentford and want a more scientific approach with rovers recruitment, which they understand, instead of how it has been in the past few seasons..

Wow 😂 2 players that would have been much better signings!!

Is this due to agent involvement or not? 

Was Pasha the man bidding for Pickering?

[Mattyblue]

Which Venky has been watching MoneyBall then? Can’t be Balaji, surely...

[RoversClitheroe]

12 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Which Venky has been watching MoneyBall then? Can’t be Balaji, surely...

Probably the son who's very very smart

[Kie_BRFC]

This will be all well and good, until we go down that route, fail, and then it'll be on to copying another team's success. Round and round we go with no end in sight. 

[Lucimo]

19 minutes ago, phili said:

It appears TM over ruled the data team who were suggesting Goode and Pickering in the summer and instead went for Kipre and another left back. When these fell through they were then left desperately trying to find replacements in Douglas and Ayala who the data team were vehemently opposed to.

Venky's now believe what was the point in investing in scouting and data if you are going to over rule them and make silly decisions. They have seen the success of Brentford and want a more scientific approach with rovers recruitment, which they understand, instead of how it has been in the past few seasons..

Do you know this to be true. Very interesting if so. I'd be fairly sure that TMs time may finally be coming to an end 

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 hour ago, phili said:

It would explain TM denying all knowledge of Pickering and Crewe saying they have rejected a bid.

 

The communication is never ideal, it's hard to tell if anything is different really. It doesn't seem like it from the outside 

[Bigdoggsteel]

33 minutes ago, phili said:

It appears TM over ruled the data team who were suggesting Goode and Pickering in the summer and instead went for Kipre and another left back. When these fell through they were then left desperately trying to find replacements in Douglas and Ayala who the data team were vehemently opposed to.

Venky's now believe what was the point in investing in scouting and data if you are going to over rule them and make silly decisions. They have seen the success of Brentford and want a more scientific approach with rovers recruitment, which they understand, instead of how it has been in the past few seasons..

Sounds positive, but it also makes me suspicious that the Venkys would have that level of idea what goes on with transfers, which I don't believe they do. I would believe Mowbray would over rule them alright though, stubborn man. 

[chaddyrovers]

28 minutes ago, phili said:

It appears TM over ruled the data team who were suggesting Goode and Pickering in the summer and instead went for Kipre and another left back. When these fell through they were then left desperately trying to find replacements in Douglas and Ayala who the data team were vehemently opposed to.

Venky's now believe what was the point in investing in scouting and data if you are going to over rule them and make silly decisions. They have seen the success of Brentford and want a more scientific approach with rovers recruitment, which they understand, instead of how it has been in the past few seasons..

was the other left back Brad Smith who went to the USA instead of signing here? 

Pickering should have been sign in the summer. We should still sign him now. Its a no brainer for me. 

On Goode, Only seen him twice for Northampton with Wharton. 

If the owners are going to commit to keep funding this scouting and Data analysis which Mowbray wanted in place aswell if my memory serves we right. I believe we need to more clever and smart with our signings. Some good young players out there. why Did Mowbray over rule his data team? 

Do you see Rovers going down the Sporting Director and head coach structure after Mowbray leaves Rovers?

[Mercer]

So Chelsea sack Lampard.

Well done Abramovich.

He's backed Lampard to the hilt in the market and clearly decided results aren't good enough and he has not seen sufficient progress and has therefore acted decisively.

It’s a results business and Lampard can't complain - apart from an early flourish, Chelsea have looked far from convincing.

And this leads us to Mowbray.  IMO, results aren't good enough, there are no tangible signs of progress and we are unconvincing.  Our owners need to act decisively and sack Mowbray - there is no room for sentiment in either sport or business as Abramovich has shown. 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Mercer

[Exiled in Toronto]

1 hour ago, phili said:

It appears TM over ruled the data team who were suggesting Goode and Pickering in the summer and instead went for Kipre and another left back. When these fell through they were then left desperately trying to find replacements in Douglas and Ayala who the data team were vehemently opposed to.

Venky's now believe what was the point in investing in scouting and data if you are going to over rule them and make silly decisions. They have seen the success of Brentford and want a more scientific approach with rovers recruitment, which they understand, instead of how it has been in the past few seasons..

First plausible explanation that ties everything together. Maybe the data/scouting investment wasn’t anything to do with TM. This is exactly the sort of stuff the consultants would’ve recommended: best practice. Then we had two systems working in parallel: the analysts found Kaminski and the young keeper, TM does his Boro mates a favour with Pears. Analysts find young defenders, TM does his Boro mates a favour with Ayala. Results don’t go as planned, TM in the frame. Venkys work around him while talks start on who to replace him with.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

57 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

was the other left back Brad Smith who went to the USA instead of signing here? 

Pickering should have been sign in the summer. We should still sign him now. Its a no brainer for me. 

On Goode, Only seen him twice for Northampton with Wharton. 

If the owners are going to commit to keep funding this scouting and Data analysis which Mowbray wanted in place aswell if my memory serves we right. I believe we need to more clever and smart with our signings. Some good young players out there. why Did Mowbray over rule his data team? 

Do you see Rovers going down the Sporting Director and head coach structure after Mowbray leaves Rovers?

They'd never played for the 'Boro.

[roversfan99]

If the rumour is true that there is trouble based on Mowbray choosing players ahead of those recommended to him based on data then it further strengthens my belief that such a system can prove to be more trouble than its worth. If players are signed despite Mowbray not wanting them then I would like to think that he is enough of a man to resign and he would probably win any claims against the club as we have seen elsewhere before.

Not sure on Pickering (all I have seen is "data" and videos that can make anyone good) but Goode has barely played for Brentford.

[JBiz]

12 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

If the rumour is true that there is trouble based on Mowbray choosing players ahead of those recommended to him based on data then it further strengthens my belief that such a system can prove to be more trouble than its worth. If players are signed despite Mowbray not wanting them then I would like to think that he is enough of a man to resign and he would probably win any claims against the club as we have seen elsewhere before.

Not sure on Pickering (all I have seen is "data" and videos that can make anyone good) but Goode has barely played for Brentford.

TM yesterday;

“He’s a brilliant human being as well, the calmest man in the building.

“I’m just delighted that the recruitment department came up with Thomas Kaminski because he is a joy to work with every day.

“Him making saves like he does really doesn’t surprise me."

To me it just seems like a normal club finally - a recruitment department for the management to utilise if they see fit.

Signing Ayala and Pears - again, like any normal manager using old experience / contacts/ relationships to develop his team,  not “sorting his mates out”

If he is being criticised for signing players from clubs he knew - why isn’t Armstrong included since he took him to Cov twice before bringing him here?

[Mattyblue]

The club needs to decide what it is then. Are we now going down the ‘data’ route - easier said then done, I imagine Brentford are going to be oft imitated without much reward, or are we going to remain at the whim of one man, who if he leaves takes a load of the club infrastructure with him.

If it’s a halfway house with competing little empires there’s only going to be one loser.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Mattyblue

[Crimpshrine]

I am still convinced Brereton was foisted on Mowbray due to certain criteria that were being followed at the time. He didn't resign over that and I don't think he will now - even if there is some substance in these rumours. 

Mowbray is stubborn and if he feels there is interference from above he may just dig his heels in further. 

[chaddyrovers]

21 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

If the rumour is true that there is trouble based on Mowbray choosing players ahead of those recommended to him based on data then it further strengthens my belief that such a system can prove to be more trouble than its worth. If players are signed despite Mowbray not wanting them then I would like to think that he is enough of a man to resign and he would probably win any claims against the club as we have seen elsewhere before.

Not sure on Pickering (all I have seen is "data" and videos that can make anyone good) but Goode has barely played for Brentford.

What system? 

Having a proper recruitment, scouting and data analysis department? 

That department found Kaminski from using scouting him extensively.

What a bargain hes been

[Blue blood]

10 minutes ago, JBiz said:

TM yesterday;

“He’s a brilliant human being as well, the calmest man in the building.

“I’m just delighted that the recruitment department came up with Thomas Kaminski because he is a joy to work with every day.

“Him making saves like he does really doesn’t surprise me."

To me it just seems like a normal club finally - a recruitment department for the management to utilise if they see fit.

Signing Ayala and Pears - again, like any normal manager using old experience / contacts/ relationships to develop his team,  not “sorting his mates out”

If he is being criticised for signing players from clubs he knew - why isn’t Armstrong included since he took him to Cov twice before bringing him here?

Probably because 

1) Pears isn't very good. 

2) Ayala is a crock adding to a list of other defensive crocks - not what was needed. 

3) We paid a fee for a second choice keeper when we already had a second choice and haven't spent a fee on a permanent defender since 1066. 

4) Despite ability and fitness doubts respectively they got overly long contracts, 4 and 3 years respectively. Overly generous is an overly generous way of describing such details. 

 

No issues with managers using contacts they have Hughes with Savage and Bellamy, Souness with Tugay and Friedel. The issue is when they aren't up to standard or the details of the deal seem questionable then it's unsurprising that people start to grumble and ask questions. As it is for the reasons above the deals seem at best unwise and at worse negligent. 

[roversfan99]

12 minutes ago, JBiz said:

TM yesterday;

“He’s a brilliant human being as well, the calmest man in the building.

“I’m just delighted that the recruitment department came up with Thomas Kaminski because he is a joy to work with every day.

“Him making saves like he does really doesn’t surprise me."

To me it just seems like a normal club finally - a recruitment department for the management to utilise if they see fit.

Signing Ayala and Pears - again, like any normal manager using old experience / contacts/ relationships to develop his team,  not “sorting his mates out”

If he is being criticised for signing players from clubs he knew - why isn’t Armstrong included since he took him to Cov twice before bringing him here?

 

4 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

What system? 

Having a proper recruitment, scouting and data analysis department? 

That department found Kaminski from using scouting him extensively.

What a bargain hes been

The rumour was that Mowbray had lost communication with the owners after choosing his own signings over the ones recommended.

I never assumed that the rumour was true, I was just saying that if it is, I do not feel comfortable with people potentially putting players on Mowbray against his will, and have always been insistent that the manager should get the final pick of players. I am very skeptical of this rumour at this point.

I have always worked on the assumption that Mowbray has had final say on signings, nothing he has said has suggested otherwise and indeed the supposedly revamped scouting network only allows him further scope to sign different players.

I also havent necessarily criticised the players specifically from being signed from old clubs, it is not uncommon as you say. I try and judge the signings on their individual merits. Kaminski for example is a very shrewd addition thus far, Pears has not impressed and seems miles away, and Ayala was a signing that excited me but various factors, ie his injury proneness which seemingly went undetected in medical checks, the duration of his contract, the way we play which I feel exposes him physically and him being a sole addition at CB has made the signing a rather poor one so far. 

[chaddyrovers]

17 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

 

The rumour was that Mowbray had lost communication with the owners after choosing his own signings over the ones recommended.

I never assumed that the rumour was true, I was just saying that if it is, I do not feel comfortable with people potentially putting players on Mowbray against his will, and have always been insistent that the manager should get the final pick of players. I am very skeptical of this rumour at this point.

I have always worked on the assumption that Mowbray has had final say on signings, nothing he has said has suggested otherwise and indeed the supposedly revamped scouting network only allows him further scope to sign different players.

I also havent necessarily criticised the players specifically from being signed from old clubs, it is not uncommon as you say. I try and judge the signings on their individual merits. Kaminski for example is a very shrewd addition thus far, Pears has not impressed and seems miles away, and Ayala was a signing that excited me but various factors, ie his injury proneness which seemingly went undetected in medical checks, the duration of his contract, the way we play which I feel exposes him physically and him being a sole addition at CB has made the signing a rather poor one so far. 

I cant see Pasha being in the UK currently given the travel restrictions in both countries. 

I think Mowbray has always had the final say on signings like yourself. 

Ayala is injury prone but seems to pick injuries but would this been pick up in a routine football medical? 

Pears has come in as number 2 but he is young. He needs games and experience of games. Not going to get that with Kaminski around. 

Ayala was the sole centre back addition in the summer cos we already had 3 centre backs at club. Swansea never bid for Williams..

[islander200]

3 hours ago, phili said:

It appears TM over ruled the data team who were suggesting Goode and Pickering in the summer and instead went for Kipre and another left back. When these fell through they were then left desperately trying to find replacements in Douglas and Ayala who the data team were vehemently opposed to.

Venky's now believe what was the point in investing in scouting and data if you are going to over rule them and make silly decisions. They have seen the success of Brentford and want a more scientific approach with rovers recruitment, which they understand, instead of how it has been in the past few seasons..

Not calling you a liar or anything like that I'm sure you are only passing on what you have been told but to be fair most summer you were saying no money would be spent and we had to sell players?

Apologies if i have you mixed up with another poster

[JBiz]

28 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

Probably because 

1) Pears isn't very good. 

2) Ayala is a crock adding to a list of other defensive crocks - not what was needed. 

3) We paid a fee for a second choice keeper when we already had a second choice and haven't spent a fee on a permanent defender since 1066. 

4) Despite ability and fitness doubts respectively they got overly long contracts, 4 and 3 years respectively. Overly generous is an overly generous way of describing such details. 

 

No issues with managers using contacts they have Hughes with Savage and Bellamy, Souness with Tugay and Friedel. The issue is when they aren't up to standard or the details of the deal seem questionable then it's unsurprising that people start to grumble and ask questions. As it is for the reasons above the deals seem at best unwise and at worse negligent. 

Hindsight?

1) only in message board world does a player make it through an youth system, academy, and then play at a professional level - to be described as shit after 3 starts.

2) Ayala has been out too much - but you failed to mention the fact two other centrebacks have also been injured, compounding the issue, regardless of if we’d signed DA.

3) Bell was 250k - and we had two homegrown first team ready defensive players and another on the fringe(scotty). We had no permanent senior keeper last season either - an area that needed investment. Goalposts being moved to complain about this - remember last years goalkeeping department?

4) Ayala I agree but that’s football - if you remember he wanted / was potentially off abroad so maybe that was the key to us signing him? Moaning about pears contract is just a waste of time though. 

 

[roversfan99]

2 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

I cant see Pasha being in the UK currently given the travel restrictions in both countries. 

I think Mowbray has always had the final say on signings like yourself. 

Ayala is injury prone but seems to pick injuries but would this been pick up in a routine football medical? 

Pears has come in as number 2 but he is young. He needs games and experience of games. Not going to get that with Kaminski around. 

Ayala was the sole centre back addition in the summer cos we already had 3 centre backs at club. Swansea never bid for Williams..

Why sign a young goalkeeper as a number 2 when he will spend his time on the bench?

[Wegerleswiggle]

5 hours ago, phili said:

I have heard that there has been a breakdown in communication between Venky's and TM. It seems to be playing out in a similar way to the end of the Bowyer era, they have just stop communicating with him since the end of November.

Also Braithwaite was bought in by the data team, Pasha and Silvester, completely bypassing Waggott, TM and Venus. Hence why TM is busy thanking Venky's for this transfer and his podcast last week. 

I am not sure how accurate the info is but does explain the sudden charm offensive from TM towards Venky's.

I have heard similar. 👍

[RoversClitheroe]

1 minute ago, Wegerleswiggle said:

I have heard similar. 👍

You said you reckon Mowbray would be gone in a week, is that based on opinion, or what you've also heard? 

[Blue blood]

14 minutes ago, JBiz said:

Hindsight?

1) only in message board world does a player make it through an youth system, academy, and then play at a professional level - to be described as shit after 3 starts.

2) Ayala has been out too much - but you failed to mention the fact two other centrebacks have also been injured, compounding the issue, regardless of if we’d signed DA.

3) Bell was 250k - and we had two homegrown first team ready defensive players and another on the fringe(scotty). We had no permanent senior keeper last season either - an area that needed investment. Goalposts being moved to complain about this - remember last years goalkeeping department?

4) Ayala I agree but that’s football - if you remember he wanted / was potentially off abroad so maybe that was the key to us signing him? Moaning about pears contract is just a waste of time though. 

 

1) it's also based on reports from Boro fans I work with.as well as 3 poor games, which seems to be in keeping with their reports. Also I said not very good which is less dramatic than your summation. Have to say both on reports from previous and what seems it appears a fair assessment of him. Also given he is a number 2 he isn't going to get huge amounts of games is he. Leuts only made a handful prior to him and Raya leaving but it was enough to see he was poor. 

2) if anything this makes signing him worse. Him being a crock would have been much less a gamble had our other defenders been more robust. In fact it would have probably been a more worthwhile gamble to take in those circumstances. As it is with two other centre backs badly injury prone it was playing with fire. 

3) Not sure the goalposts are being moved. Both the defence AND the keeper situation really needed badly sorting. Yes we needed a couple of keepers, no arguments from me there - I agree with you. We also however really needed to strengthen a depleted and injury prone defence. That the money went on a second keeper when we already had the Greek lad as back up, and we badly needed defensive reinforcements too, seems a poor use of the money. Don't think that's hindsight whatsoever. 

4) Maybe it was key to us signing him, in which case we were had. It's bad business regardless of how much it happens in football as we don't come out well from it. I'm not sure why eyebrows can't be raised at Pears contract. Is a second choice keeper who hasn't really performed really worth a 4 year deal? I would have expected he would have had more to prove to justify being locked down for that long. It's not like a Dack or Armstrong situation of tying down your star players. What I will say though is if it was longer for a lower wage than perhaps that makes sense and I would withdraw that criticism as I could see why you would want that situation.