Tony Mowbray Discussion

[DE.]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

I don't think that his failures are down to a lack of ability to inspire

Considering the amount of appalling first halves we've witnessed under his tenure I can't agree with this. There have been far too many games where we've come out looking weak, unprepared and unwilling to compete. After 4+ seasons that's on the manager. 

[1864roverite]

10 minutes ago, DE. said:

Considering the amount of appalling first halves we've witnessed under his tenure I can't agree with this. There have been far too many games where we've come out looking weak, unprepared and unwilling to compete. After 4+ seasons that's on the manager. 

It clearly shows whatever message he had given wasn’t received by the players🤬 cue Huddersfield and Blackpool where the first half performance in both games was devoid of any semblance of tactics 

[Sparks Rover]

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

I don't think that his failures are down to a lack of ability to inspire, 

I think that's exactly the problem to be honest.  We always fail when on the brink of getting anywhere... and the league 1 season wasn't great either, should have won a honour for the list, but Mogadon fucked that up too.

Sorry, shit manager. 

[Mattyblue]

35 minutes ago, 1864roverite said:

I honestly believe that you don’t really think that MB😅 his overall performance throughout his contract has been just about achieving but had gone stale! 

I wouldn’t be offering him a new deal, but I’m talking about the ownership and executive structure we actually have, not want brfcs posters would like us to have.

[DE.]

25 minutes ago, 1864roverite said:

It clearly shows whatever message he had given wasn’t received by the players🤬 cue Huddersfield and Blackpool where the first half performance in both games was devoid of any semblance of tactics 

In my view it's very similar to the Bowyer years. The players know they have the quality to put up a fight if they feel like it, but without the manager adding that extra motivation they are too often found coasting when their minds need to be far more focused and driven. Mowbray himself has said the dressing room is the players' domain and he doesn't interfere, so we have to assume the second half revivals we often see are down to the players giving themselves a kick up the backside - and that's not me making up a scenario just to rip on the manager, those are his words and I wouldn't know how else to interpret them. 

[RevidgeBlue]

4 hours ago, JohnGo said:

Sorry 1864 I work for an Indian multinational and they are very loyal to their staff, more to my annoyance. I’ve wanted redundancy for the last 5 years and I’m still employed. I’m 64 on the 11th of October and they’ve said I can go part time from my 65th birthday. You can’t get better employers. Mowbray and his bunch of no hopers are here for the long term.

I agree with the point on loyalty, however I think this translates to him being allowed to see his contract out rather than being awarded a new deal. (Unless we're in imminent danger of going down).

At least I bloody well hope so as 1864 said.

[roverandout]

4 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Well unless you are next to the dugout and can hear what Mowbray is saying and shouting I think you are being unfair to be honest. 

Different managers have different style of managing. 

Could we? I don't know who the owners want appoint and what Waggott would recommend if he is allow in the recruitment process. 

 

You're right Mowbray does have a style on the touchline 

 

[RoversClitheroe]

13 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Mowbray was the same in League 1 when we won almost every week, that is just his personality. I don't think that his failures are down to a lack of ability to inspire, nor do I think that players are motivated by a manager jumping around like a maniac on the touchline.

I myself come from an elite sporting background and I'd say from my own experience in sport, he appears to be the least inspiring manager I've seen and I personally would struggle to get motivated to a man falling asleep in the dugout.

[JohnGo]

5 minutes ago, RoversClitheroe said:

I myself come from an elite sporting background and I'd say from my own experience in sport, he appears to be the least inspiring manager I've seen and I personally would struggle to get motivated to a man falling asleep in the dugout.

I’m not from an elite sporting background, but I did play football and cricket to my mid 40’s damaged ligaments curtailed my career. You want to give that extra for those managers that inspire you, not a boring uncharismatic manager. You don’t respond to shouting from the touch line, rather it’s encouraging and showing some passion that does the business. Mowbray OUT OUT OUT.

[roversfan99]

6 minutes ago, RoversClitheroe said:

I myself come from an elite sporting background and I'd say from my own experience in sport, he appears to be the least inspiring manager I've seen and I personally would struggle to get motivated to a man falling asleep in the dugout.

"Falling asleep" again is obviously blatantly not true. Your illustrious sporting career aside, I don't get the fascination with how he behaves on the touchline. There are many better managers that are equally if not even less animated than him as I gave an example of in Allardyce. Alternatively, some of the most incompetent managers in the game kick every ball on the touchline like Coyle did. I dont really think that it makes any difference, you could argue that a manager constantly running around like a mad man would only pass over signals of panic and chaos if it did.

If the results were good, as they were for example in League 1, no one gave a shit about his touchline demeanour. Ultimately, when results became poor last season, his unchanged touchline demeanour then became a further stick to poke him with when inadequate results is more than enough on its own to justify an opinion of wanting a change.

[RoversClitheroe]

4 minutes ago, JohnGo said:

You don’t respond to shouting from the touch line, rather it’s encouraging and showing some passion that does the business. Mowbray OUT OUT OUT.

And you definitely don't call out players regularly and say your own team that you've built on a journey aren't men.

Players not being played in there relevant positions either.

It's easy to motivate a team when they're in the top 6 as obviously everyone wants to get to the Premier League, so the reason that it can't be sustained must be due to Mowbray being tactically awful, because when we've been in the top 6 the fixtures we've had to cement it in the past have been relatively easy.

[JohnGo]

5 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

"Falling asleep" again is obviously blatantly not true. Your illustrious sporting career aside, I don't get the fascination with how he behaves on the touchline. There are many better managers that are equally if not even less animated than him as I gave an example of in Allardyce. Alternatively, some of the most incompetent managers in the game kick every ball on the touchline like Coyle did. I dont really think that it makes any difference, you could argue that a manager constantly running around like a mad man would only pass over signals of panic and chaos if it did.

If the results were good, as they were for example in League 1, no one gave a shit about his touchline demeanour. Ultimately, when results became poor last season, his unchanged touchline demeanour then became a further stick to poke him with when inadequate results is more than enough on its own to justify an opinion of wanting a change.

Klopp, Mourinho, Ferguson, Shankley, got the best out of their players. The quiet ones Mercer, Busby had an aura that made good players great eg Tony Book. You can’t imagine Mowbray being one tenth as good as these managers.

[roversfan99]

9 minutes ago, RoversClitheroe said:

And you definitely don't call out players regularly and say your own team that you've built on a journey aren't men.

Players not being played in there relevant positions either.

It's easy to motivate a team when they're in the top 6 as obviously everyone wants to get to the Premier League, so the reason that it can't be sustained must be due to Mowbray being tactically awful, because when we've been in the top 6 the fixtures we've had to cement it in the past have been relatively easy.

The squad does not have the quality to be in the top 6. Last season prior to selling Armstrong and being so hamstrung in the market, he should have been far, far closer. There will not be just one reason or specific failing as to why that didnt happen, and indeed suggesting it is all solely down to Mowbray "being tactically awful" is a massively presumptious oversimplification.

3 minutes ago, JohnGo said:

Klopp, Mourinho, Ferguson, Shankley, got the best out of their players. The quiet ones Mercer, Busby had an aura that made good players great eg Tony Book. You can’t imagine Mowbray being one tenth as good as these managers.

I dont think anyone is comparing Mowbray to any of those. Point being that there is minimal correlation between animation on the touchline and quality of manager. Scott Parker, top of the league, very placid on the touchline. Mark Robins, doing brilliantly, not the most animated. Daniel Farke, 2 recent league titles, again not a shouter. You get the picture.

[RevidgeBlue]

51 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I dont think anyone is comparing Mowbray to any of those. Point being that there is minimal correlation between animation on the touchline and quality of manager. Scott Parker, top of the league, very placid on the touchline. Mark Robins, doing brilliantly, not the most animated. Daniel Farke, 2 recent league titles, again not a shouter. You get the picture.

Couldn't care less about Mowbray's demeanour on the touchline if we were getting results, however three years in the Championship with generous financial backing have shown that he clearly isn't up to it at this level. I don't know why you keep making excuses for him.

Furthermore, no matter how many times you claim he was hamstrung in the transfer market this summer and try to blame the owners, nothing will change the fact that to the extent he was hamstrung it was entirely the fault of him and Waggott mismanaging the Club's resources over the last few seasons just as it's primarily their fault most of our better players stand to leave for next to nothing.

They are paid, and paid well,  to make these decisions.

[Mercer]

2 hours ago, JohnGo said:

Klopp, Mourinho, Ferguson, Shankley, got the best out of their players. The quiet ones Mercer, Busby had an aura that made good players great eg Tony Book. You can’t imagine Mowbray being one tenth as good as these managers.

Great post.

Kenny also fell into the 'quiet ones' but my God, what an aura.

 

 

[roversfan99]

2 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Couldn't care less about Mowbray's demeanour on the touchline if we were getting results, however three years in the Championship with generous financial backing have shown that he clearly isn't up to it at this level. I don't know why you keep making excuses for him.

Furthermore, no matter how many times you claim he was hamstrung in the transfer market this summer and try to blame the owners, nothing will change the fact that to the extent he was hamstrung it was entirely the fault of him and Waggott mismanaging the Club's resources over the last few seasons just as it's primarily their fault most of our better players stand to leave for next to nothing.

They are paid, and paid well,  to make these decisions.

I am unsure how you have concluded from my post that I am constantly making excuses from him when you agree with the point I am making, that the only reason that people even notice his touchline demeanour is because of results, especially in the second half of last season.

In regards to the other stuff, Mowbray is not the one who sets the budgets, so that is nonsensical. What he is to blame for somewhat is the state of the squad going into the summer, that I would strongly agree with. The budget this summer was not a competitive one, unable to even sign experienced loanees despite selling one of his own signings for a profit, mind you, he shouldn't have been manager going into the summer.

But me constantly making excuses for him doesn't fit in with the fact that I have consistently said for months that I want him to be sacked and that he would have been if the owners had any interest in us. His touchline demeanour is an example of a stick used to beat him unnecessarily, the results and 15th place finish last season is a strong enough argument.

[booth]

32 minutes ago, Mercer said:

Great post.

Kenny also fell into the 'quiet ones' but my God, what an aura.

 

 

Kenny didn't need to shout a lot. He used to find somewhere to stand so they could see him, they knew he was watching and they could be out if they delivered a shoddy performance.




 

[islander200]

18 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I am unsure how you have concluded from my post that I am constantly making excuses from him when you agree with the point I am making, that the only reason that people even notice his touchline demeanour is because of results, especially in the second half of last season.

In regards to the other stuff, Mowbray is not the one who sets the budgets, so that is nonsensical. What he is to blame for somewhat is the state of the squad going into the summer, that I would strongly agree with. The budget this summer was not a competitive one, unable to even sign experienced loanees despite selling one of his own signings for a profit, mind you, he shouldn't have been manager going into the summer.

But me constantly making excuses for him doesn't fit in with the fact that I have consistently said for months that I want him to be sacked and that he would have been if the owners had any interest in us. His touchline demeanour is an example of a stick used to beat him unnecessarily, the results and 15th place finish last season is a strong enough argument.

The reason why the budget so low is because of the money wasted in previous seasons.Instead of him using the budget to extend players contracts during the first pandemic (players who didn't play) maybe he should have been asking for that money to be put towards a new deal for Nyambe at the time.

[JohnGo]

3 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

The squad does not have the quality to be in the top 6. Last season prior to selling Armstrong and being so hamstrung in the market, he should have been far, far closer. There will not be just one reason or specific failing as to why that didnt happen, and indeed suggesting it is all solely down to Mowbray "being tactically awful" is a massively presumptious oversimplification.

I dont think anyone is comparing Mowbray to any of those. Point being that there is minimal correlation between animation on the touchline and quality of manager. Scott Parker, top of the league, very placid on the touchline. Mark Robins, doing brilliantly, not the most animated. Daniel Farke, 2 recent league titles, again not a shouter. You get the picture.

You seem to have missed my second sentence. Busby and Mercer where quiet but got the best from their players. Tony Book was playing non league football when Mercer took him to Man City and made him captain. He played until his late 30’s. You say you can’t make a silk purse out of a sows ear. Joe certainly did. You may be too young to remember the 60’s. It was a great time to be watching football.

21 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I am unsure how you have concluded from my post that I am constantly making excuses from him when you agree with the point I am making, that the only reason that people even notice his touchline demeanour is because of results, especially in the second half of last season.

In regards to the other stuff, Mowbray is not the one who sets the budgets, so that is nonsensical. What he is to blame for somewhat is the state of the squad going into the summer, that I would strongly agree with. The budget this summer was not a competitive one, unable to even sign experienced loanees despite selling one of his own signings for a profit, mind you, he shouldn't have been manager going into the summer.

But me constantly making excuses for him doesn't fit in with the fact that I have consistently said for months that I want him to be sacked and that he would have been if the owners had any interest in us. His touchline demeanour is an example of a stick used to beat him unnecessarily, the results and 15th place finish last season is a strong enough argument.

He may not set the budget, but he bloody well spends it, and given the wasted money on extending players contracts Gladwin etc. He would have been more than able to refresh his squad. Mowbray OUT, OUT, OUT.

[roversfan99]

7 minutes ago, islander200 said:

The reason why the budget so low is because of the money wasted in previous seasons.Instead of him using the budget to extend players contracts during the first pandemic (players who didn't play) maybe he should have been asking for that money to be put towards a new deal for Nyambe at the time.

Mowbray has repeatedly said that he would like the current players to be given extended deals and regularly mentions the idea of selling players at a profit and then reinvesting part of that windfall, which should be the policy. He has also (as well as Waggott) mentioned the strict wage ceiling which has been enforced above his head that is preventing those players from signing on. He has just made 8 figures worth of profit on one of his signings, if the owners allowed just a little flexibility in slightly moving that ceiling up, they could then sell on some of those assets down the line and financially benefit. Sadly, they don't have a plan.

When those players contracts were renewed, it was a very strange decision and compounded by the decision by Waggott and presumably those above to refuse refunds on season ticket holders, it felt like a slap in the face. But for an extra month, it would have been small fry overall if you compare it to the potential budget to sign players, and that strict ceiling would still remain.

I don't get how is to blame for the uncompetitive budget of this season. I take on board and share the criticism aimed his way at the state of the squad going into the summer, 100%. But why is he to blame for the uncompetitive budget this time? FFP regulations? Something that regularly crops up but Mowbray/Waggott never once really mentioned it in regards to the low budget. A lack of trust? In which case, why is Mowbray still manager?

[DE.]

As far as the club's finances are concerned that responsibility lies solely with the owners and Waggott. Mowbray can recommend players to sign and contracts he would like extended, but it is up to the owners and the CEO to decide if his recommendations fit in with the club's overall vision from a financial perspective. 

People above Mowbray should be assessing the viability of spending £7m on BBD or £5m on Sam Gallagher and asking if that money is being spent responsibly and whether it could cause problems further down the line. Ditto with contact extensions, pay rises, etc. 

However, the club seems to have no obvious vision or structure. Instead, as always, the responsibility for all of these areas is heaped on the manager's shoulders. This not only creates an issue whereby the manager is being asked to perform duties that should be beyond his remit, but also means that if the manager is removed from his position the club's entire vision is removed along with it and we have to start from scratch. It's a massively flawed model that we've more or less been operating with for the entirety of Venky's tenure, save for the periods where the likes of Shebby, Agnew, Shaw and Senior briefly appeared to give the impression some sort of structure was being implemented. Ultimately these appointments simply ended up causing even more chaos, however, as there appears to be no real direction from the very top. 

Mowbray needs to go, but even when he eventually does nothing much will change until the root cause of our decline is addressed - that being the owners' inability to implement a structure at the club which allows every part of the operation to function correctly. As long as we continue to rely on the first team manager to set the direction of the entire club we will go nowhere.  

[Wheelton Blue]

24 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I don't get how is to blame for the uncompetitive budget of this season. 

Perhaps it's something to do with him needlessly spunking millions and hence the FFP well has run dry?

It's on him and Waggott. No one else.

[islander200]

51 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Mowbray has repeatedly said that he would like the current players to be given extended deals and regularly mentions the idea of selling players at a profit and then reinvesting part of that windfall, which should be the policy. He has also (as well as Waggott) mentioned the strict wage ceiling which has been enforced above his head that is preventing those players from signing on. He has just made 8 figures worth of profit on one of his signings, if the owners allowed just a little flexibility in slightly moving that ceiling up, they could then sell on some of those assets down the line and financially benefit. Sadly, they don't have a plan.

When those players contracts were renewed, it was a very strange decision and compounded by the decision by Waggott and presumably those above to refuse refunds on season ticket holders, it felt like a slap in the face. But for an extra month, it would have been small fry overall if you compare it to the potential budget to sign players, and that strict ceiling would still remain.

I don't get how is to blame for the uncompetitive budget of this season. I take on board and share the criticism aimed his way at the state of the squad going into the summer, 100%. But why is he to blame for the uncompetitive budget this time? FFP regulations? Something that regularly crops up but Mowbray/Waggott never once really mentioned it in regards to the low budget. A lack of trust? In which case, why is Mowbray still manager?

I do believe we are on the brink of breaking the ffp rules, granted we brought on 15 million for Armstrong but it was with 2 weeks left of the window and with ouu wages to turnover running the way it was I don't see how we couldn't be close to breaking the rules.Plus didn't chaddy put up how much the owners have put in over the last couple of seasons and ffp preventing anymore owner funding?

 

Money has been mismanaged.The owners had no problem paying for Bennets and Mulgrews new deals.No.problem making Sam Gallagher one of our biggest earners and paying a five million fee.

 I'm not suggesting that the owners would spend freely but up to this summer he has had adequate funding.

If the budget had been a bit healthier we would have seen Evans and Bennett with new deals.

Mowbray has made some good signings Dack and Armstrong etc but he has wasted an awful lot stupidly.

Even though our budget Iimited still feel it's been wasted, the loans might be on the cheaper side but they all add together,they are all similar types.Did we need both Poveda and Khedra?Did we need Clarkson?We couldn't have loaned a more physical type?

Aberdeen manager confirmed we had 500k Turned down for Hedges.So there was some money available.But again the people on the ground can't get the deals done.

Even last season all the loan deals,we brought in 11 players last summer, they add up.Maybe if he could play with a smaller squad we would have got a couple of permanent signings rather than half a dozen loan signings.

The owners give a budget and he works around that budget.He wants as big a squad as he can so fills it with loans.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by islander200

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, islander200 said:

I do believe we are on the brink of breaking the ffp rules, granted we brought on 15 million for Armstrong but it was with 2 weeks left of the window and with ouu wages to turnover running the way it was I don't see how we couldn't be close to breaking the rules.Plus didn't chaddy put up how much the owners have put in over the last couple of seasons and ffp preventing anymore owner funding?

 

Money has been mismanaged.The owners had no problem paying for Bennets and Mulgrews new deals.No.problem making Sam Gallagher one of our biggest earners and paying a five million fee.

 I'm not suggesting that the owners would spend freely but up to this summer he has had adequate funding.

If the budget had been a bit healthier we would have seen Evans and Bennett with new deals.

Mowbray has made some good signings Dack and Armstrong etc but he has wasted an awful lot stupidly.

Even though our budget Iimited still feel it's been wasted, the loans might be on the cheaper side but they all add together,they are all similar types.Did we need both Poveda and Khedra?Did we need Clarkson?We couldn't have loaned a more physical type?

Aberdeen manager confirmed we had 500k Turned down for Hedges.So there was some money available.But again the people on the ground can't get the deals done.

Even last season all the loan deals,we brought in 11 players last summer, they add up.Maybe if he could play with a smaller squad we would have got a couple of permanent signings rather than half a dozen loan signings.

The owners give a budget and he works around that budget.He wants as big a squad as he can so fills it with loans.

 

 

 

 

 

Ultimately we are all somewhat speculating and estimating no matter how much some profess otherwise but that would mean that we would have been over 10/15m over FFP regulations prior to the Armstrong sale. 

I don't doubt that Mowbray's spending has been far from 100% efficient. Gallagher is the stand out mistake, not very good, big fee and big wages. Often criticised a lack of ruthlessness upon promotion when he dished out new deals too. I don't doubt that he played a big part in coming into the summer with a poor squad, and based on last season he shouldn't be here, but he has been very restricted by an uncompetitive budget this season, and it is not Mowbray's fault that he got such a restrictive budget, he isn't in charge of the purse strings, and being so restrictive will actually impede us financially when assets leave for free, so it is short sighted by Venkys. The lines have been about how tough it has been in India and putting the breaks on the journey, the FFP reason in the main has come solely from supporters, surely if we was so far over regulations, Waggott in particular and even Mowbray would have regularly brought it out as an excuse throughout the summer, but they didn't.

He does want as a big a squad as he can but even by loaning 4 in, the squad is still very thin and massively depleted in numbers compared to last season and we are struggling to name a squad with just a few injuries.

[ewoody]

pressure is now starting to show on Mowbray.