Tony Mowbray Discussion

[tomphil]

That's why he ended up at Coventry bottom of the league then here. Really how many championship clubs would have taken a punt on him then ?  Especially one in a relegation fight.

Desperate meets desperate although after a while we were a good match up but that was in league one and bottom half championship. That's clearly where his football management methods are most suited. As he's shown in flashes it's not to late to change but he's too set in his muddled ways to stick at it.

[Husky]

9 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

"I think for 20 minutes, we controlled the game. We scored a goal, could have scored another.

 

"But I think they changed their formation, went more direct, played two strikers, made it a scrappier game. They're a big, strong, physical team , we knew that before we came here. They've got some powerful players."

 

Quotes from TM about the game. Could have been quotes about the Preston game. Its not rocket science how to beat us - just be physical. Yet despite this happening time after time TM has no answer when teams do this. A busted flush of a manager if ever there was one. 

 Give him a break. At least he didn't say that Huddersfield played like PSG at times. ?

As for the bit in bold. I'm not sure if I would have started with known lightweights like Buckley.

[RevidgeBlue]

1 minute ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

The hard, cold facts of Mowbray’s transfer dealings are looking worse and worse.

No offence intended but have you only just worked that one out EIT?

Anyone can make a couple of mistakes in the transfer window, you take a gamble on a player and it doesn't come off  but what I don't understand is why you would spend £7m on a player and not even give him a chance then spend another 5m on someone who's played here already, demonstrated that he isn't particularly good and shown that he is someone to be avoided on a permanent basis.

[Exiled in Toronto]

51 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

No offence intended but have you only just worked that one out EIT?

Anyone can make a couple of mistakes in the transfer window, you take a gamble on a player and it doesn't come off  but what I don't understand is why you would spend £7m on a player and not even give him a chance then spend another 5m on someone who's played here already, demonstrated that he isn't particularly good and shown that he is someone to be avoided on a permanent basis.

I was talking facts, not opinion, as it’s facts that’ll do for him rather than the opinions of the armchair managers on here. The new facts being we can now safely add Rothwell and Chapman to his list of failed transfers.

[joey_big_nose]

6 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I agree, if you intend to play 4-4-2 with two up front you must be getting the ball out to wide players to provide the strikers with good service. Just banging the ball up the middle won't work most of the time.

We could go 442 

-------------------------Walton

Nyambe----Lenihan----Tosin----Bell

----JRC-------Travis----Holtby---Downing

--------------Gallagher---Graham

Another raft of changes, but what's new?

[joey_big_nose]

Just now, Exiled in Toronto said:

I was talking facts, not opinion, as it’s facts that’ll do for him rather than the opinions of the armchair managers on here. The new facts being we can now safely add Rothwell and Chapman to his list of failed transfers.

To be honest we paid so little for Rothwell he's been okay I think. Chapman is yet to play, and also cheap. Brereton and Gallagher are the ridiculous ones.

[RevidgeBlue]

5 minutes ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

I was talking facts, not opinion, as it’s facts that’ll do for him rather than the opinions of the armchair managers on here. The new facts being we can now safely add Rothwell and Chapman to his list of failed transfers.

Devil's Advocate mode: Has he made ANY successful signings other than Dack?

Harrison Reed maybe, but then he wasted him by playing him out of position as with many others.

Also, which players have improved under Mowbray? I think you could make a case that the likes of Raya Nyambe  Bell Lenihan Travis Rothwell Brereton Gallagher and Chapman all regressed the longer they have played under TM

Edited December 30, 2019 by RevidgeBlue

[philipl]

So one promotion worthy win at Bristol City step forwards, three relegation worthy games against sides in average 19th steps backwards...

[CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber]

This is all so predictable. Can't believe I let myself be fooled into thinking we could make the play offs. Since Mowbray has been here we haven't occupied the play offs places for a single second and that should be telling enough. Sadly for us he now has the Dack injury to hide behind when in reality he'd have never got us there anyway. 

[Ossydave]

The Mowbray in/out debate is pretty much split down the middle of the fan base at present, I don't mean just on here but the impression I'm getting from fans at the games and speaking to them.

The majority of the IN camp will defend him tirelessly. They respect the job he's done in difficult circumstances with nobhead owners and meddling behind the scenes. They will struggle to list many realistic replacements who can come in and do a better job and the fear of the unknown plays on their mind.

The majority of the OUT camp refuse to see any good in anything that Mowbray now does. Their mind is completely made up and they blame the guy for literally everything bad. Cold pies? Mowbray out. Piss weak pints of fosters? Mowbray out. They will attempt to force this opinion on everyone, they will refuse to be questioned and if you do so you're a happy clapper or have your head in the clouds.

On a couple of occasions yesterday the difference of opinion was on the verge of breaking out into scuffles. There is a real toxic feel to our fan base at present. Theres no unity amongst supporters anymore, are we in this together? Are we shite. This feeling by the way is as much to do with our pathetic home attendances as waggot tax or anything else, its not an enjoyable team to support at present AT ALL. Let's be honest it's pretty much been this way since that lot took over, the manager ultimately gets the brunt of the anger though.

For the record I'm not entirely sure which camp I sit in, perhaps falling somewhere in the middle as I get both sides of the argument. The biggest worry, by far, is trusting the powers that be to bring in a suitable replacement if it came to that. That replacement also needs to realise the difficulties they face behind the scenes, I simply could not see someone in the Warnock mould tolerating the owners for one minute! For which reason it would need to be a nice chap like Tony, struggling to think of many who could step in. It would probably need to be a younger fella in the Lee Johnson or Joey Barton bracket or someone making the step up from the lower tiers. Of course this comes with a huge element of risk, look no further than the Nathan Jones appointment.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, Ossydave said:

The Mowbray in/out debate is pretty much split down the middle of the fan base at present, I don't mean just on here but the impression I'm getting from fans at the games and speaking to them.

The majority of the IN camp will defend him tirelessly. They respect the job he's done in difficult circumstances with nobhead owners and meddling behind the scenes. They will struggle to list many realistic replacements who can come in and do a better job and the fear of the unknown plays on their mind.

The majority of the OUT camp refuse to see any good in anything that Mowbray now does. Their mind is completely made up and they blame the guy for literally everything bad. Cold pies? Mowbray out. Piss weak pints of fosters? Mowbray out. They will attempt to force this opinion on everyone, they will refuse to be questioned and if you do so you're a happy clapper or have your head in the clouds.

On a couple of occasions yesterday the difference of opinion was on the verge of breaking out into scuffles. There is a real toxic feel to our fan base at present. Theres no unity amongst supporters anymore, are we in this together? Are we shite. This feeling by the way is as much to do with our pathetic home attendances as waggot tax or anything else, its not an enjoyable team to support at present AT ALL. Let's be honest it's pretty much been this way since that lot took over, the manager ultimately gets the brunt of the anger though.

For the record I'm not entirely sure which camp I sit in, perhaps falling somewhere in the middle as I get both sides of the argument. The biggest worry, by far, is trusting the powers that be to bring in a suitable replacement if it came to that. That replacement also needs to realise the difficulties they face behind the scenes, I simply could not see someone in the Warnock mould tolerating the owners for one minute! For which reason it would need to be a nice chap like Tony, struggling to think of many who could step in. It would probably need to be a younger fella in the Lee Johnson or Joey Barton bracket or someone making the step up from the lower tiers. Of course this comes with a huge element of risk, look no further than the Nathan Jones appointment.

Or the Paul Ince appointment.

[Blue blood]

Its damning that TMs greatest protection is you can't trust the owners to get better. That speaks volumes for how poor he is. Yet at the same time is true. Compared with Kean, Coyle and a few of the others TM is much better. Problem is we're dealing in levels of crapness rather than actually any degree of quality. 

There are a number of issues which have been done to death but the one that really sticks out to me is actually our 6 game good run, with 5 seeing an unchanged team. Why at this point did TM do that? Why did be stop it? After 2 home games of failed switching, other than a like for lower quality like replacement for Dack why keep changing? 

This doesn't really make sense to me. If TM knows a best 11 is the way forward why not stick with it? If he didn't know it till then that's alarming. But given the evidence of that run, why change from it? Or if he doesn't think this works, why do it for 5 games? Its a very odd behaviour and somewhat of a false dawn at the least. At worst it shows a manager who has lost the plot who values things above success. 

[Cherry Blue]

Just as Ossydave says the in/out Mowbray is 50/50 with the fan base. But what do the Venky club advisors think, assuming they exist?

I'm on the "out side" based on his weak managerial techniques including poor player enthusiasm, out of position players, failure to pick right team with available squad, wasted transfer budget and, if he's losing relationship with fans (based on the 50/50), he's probably losing the dressing room. I'd praise him for getting us back up but that's about it.

If we can see this, Venky club advisors can see this too. The club has a big problem.

He's struggling and because of his nature he will not step aside, even though he did once say he would. The man loves football but he's not at Championship managerial level. The problem may be he will not go and the club cannot afford to sack him.

[Ossydave]

Just now, Blue blood said:

Its damning that TMs greatest protection is you can't trust the owners to get better. That speaks volumes for how poor he is. Yet at the same time is true. Compared with Kean, Coyle and a few of the others TM is much better. Problem is we're dealing in levels of crapness rather than actually any degree of quality. 

There are a number of issues which have been done to death but the one that really sticks out to me is actually our 6 game good run, with 5 seeing an unchanged team. Why at this point did TM do that? Why did be stop it? After 2 home games of failed switching, other than a like for lower quality like replacement for Dack why keep changing? 

This doesn't really make sense to me. If TM knows a best 11 is the way forward why not stick with it? If he didn't know it till then that's alarming. But given the evidence of that run, why change from it? Or if he doesn't think this works, why do it for 5 games? Its a very odd behaviour and somewhat of a false dawn at the least. At worst it shows a manager who has lost the plot who values things above success. 

Ok realistically who do you think the owners could bring in to make us better? Not saying such a manager doesn't exist but I honestly struggle to think of many we could attract. At a push Chris Hughton, but not sure he'd come as i think he's holding out for a return to managing in the prem.

[OldEwoodBlue]

I tell you what I find very odd.

Tosin goes missing for 2 games. Zero explanation. A niggle being the only passing comment a week later. All other players get a brief diagnosis... tight hamstring, a knock or whatever but after being probably the most influential player in our good run, not a single word about where he is and why.

Then suddenly yesterday he is back (played shite) with some terrible loose passing. Williams meanwhile is out.

Today he says Williams trained for 2 minutes on Saturday then walked off.

 

Something isn't right imo. He's either lost the players because of his decisions or he isn't in control of the decisions ?

 

[tomphil]

Hadn't Tosin gone back home for Christmas to rest his niggle ?

When they aren't our players i doubt we have much say what they do and TM doesn't strike me as the type to kick up a fuss.

[Blue blood]

4 minutes ago, Ossydave said:

Ok realistically who do you think the owners could bring in to make us better? Not saying such a manager doesn't exist but I honestly struggle to think of many we could attract. At a push Chris Hughton, but not sure he'd come as i think he's holding out for a return to managing in the prem.

Its a good question. As I said in an earlier post I think we've missed the boat on a number of decent managers. However off the top of my head Grayson would be amongst me too candidates. 

I also wonder about Ross the former Sunderland manager. Yes he didn't get them promoted - albeit it's a graveyard for managers - but they had a good long unbeaten run and doing decently in such a shambles is more of an achievement then it looks. He also did well in Scotland. Houghton as you say is a good call if we can get him. We spend silly money on non scoring strikers so if the will was there I think we could attract him. 

You are right that having incompetent owners hinders us hugely. A decent person in charge of recruitment would be able to assess whether someone was worth a gamble, whether failed roles had been learned from/had mitigating circumstances or whether they weren't that good. Take for example the ex Stoke boss Jones - he did really well prior to Stoke but poor at Stoke. Which is the better indicator of his talent? I'm not sure but a decent recruiter would be able to get a better handle on this and make a more accurate judgement. So yeah, having incompetents lead us does limit the managerial pool. 

That said it doesn't shut the door. Some like Houghton and Grayson I think are proven quality. And maybe Warnock could be tempted if we grovelled with large amounts of cash? Others are a gamble, and whilst we don't know which they are because of poor investigation from the recruiters - they could well be good and better than what we have. Ross would fall into that category for me. 

Now that sounds like a big risk and I appreciate it isn't risk free. The question becomes when is it worth taking the risk. However TM to me is losing the plot - even when he stumbles on a winning formula he rejects it - and the shape we will be in 6 months from now is terrifying (no keeper, defence or decent striker). So to me the risk isn't all that big especially given most managers would do obvious things that would have big gains, such as playing players in position. 

[Roverthechimp]

13 minutes ago, Cherry Blue said:

Just as Ossydave says the in/out Mowbray is 50/50 with the fan base. But what do the Venky club advisors think, assuming they exist?

I'm on the "out side" based on his weak managerial techniques including poor player enthusiasm, out of position players, failure to pick right team with available squad, wasted transfer budget and, if he's losing relationship with fans (based on the 50/50), he's probably losing the dressing room. I'd praise him for getting us back up but that's about it.

If we can see this, Venky club advisors can see this too. The club has a big problem.

He's struggling and because of his nature he will not step aside, even though he did once say he would. The man loves football but he's not at Championship managerial level. The problem may be he will not go and the club cannot afford to sack him.

I would say that TM is very much at championship level but us fans are starting to want/expect promotion material.

The last 3 games have raised the dressing room question but the 6 before that took it away. He is lauded/castised for keeping a happy squad but is now questioned on it. Frankly - the players were shit yesterday. No manager can account for that many abysmal passes/touches/decisions. First 15 we showed how to play - then panic set in. Sure i can buy the argument that the manager is ultimately responsible but it has to be a reasonable judgement. 

Looking at the team, player for player, we are not good enough. If TM is solely responsible for the decision to buy BB and SG then i agree that tough questions need to be asked.

[tomphil]

We should expect comfortable upper mid upper half of the table i think that's fair enough. However the demands and aims should be as high as possible and you finish where you finish.  

That really doesn't appear the case at times yet the manager and players frequently say it is but we seem to prefer to be stuck in experimental mode. Then they just shrug their shoulders and so 'oh well never mind'.

[Ossydave]

14 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

Its a good question. As I said in an earlier post I think we've missed the boat on a number of decent managers. However off the top of my head Grayson would be amongst me too candidates. 

I also wonder about Ross the former Sunderland manager. Yes he didn't get them promoted - albeit it's a graveyard for managers - but they had a good long unbeaten run and doing decently in such a shambles is more of an achievement then it looks. He also did well in Scotland. Houghton as you say is a good call if we can get him. We spend silly money on non scoring strikers so if the will was there I think we could attract him. 

You are right that having incompetent owners hinders us hugely. A decent person in charge of recruitment would be able to assess whether someone was worth a gamble, whether failed roles had been learned from/had mitigating circumstances or whether they weren't that good. Take for example the ex Stoke boss Jones - he did really well prior to Stoke but poor at Stoke. Which is the better indicator of his talent? I'm not sure but a decent recruiter would be able to get a better handle on this and make a more accurate judgement. So yeah, having incompetents lead us does limit the managerial pool. 

That said it doesn't shut the door. Some like Houghton and Grayson I think are proven quality. And maybe Warnock could be tempted if we grovelled with large amounts of cash? Others are a gamble, and whilst we don't know which they are because of poor investigation from the recruiters - they could well be good and better than what we have. Ross would fall into that category for me. 

Now that sounds like a big risk and I appreciate it isn't risk free. The question becomes when is it worth taking the risk. However TM to me is losing the plot - even when he stumbles on a winning formula he rejects it - and the shape we will be in 6 months from now is terrifying (no keeper, defence or decent striker). So to me the risk isn't all that big especially given most managers would do obvious things that would have big gains, such as playing players in position. 

Not convinced Grayson is the man, he won like 3 games in 18 at Sunderland then similar at Bradford. He's doing 'ok' at Blackpool now but they current sit in a similar position to us really, in a weaker league. 

Ross failed to get Sunderland promoted, a feat Mowbray managed at first time of asking. I cant really comment on his time in Scotland and I don't really follow the leagues there.

IF we could attract Warnock, and I think it's a massive if, he's 71 years old. At that age he's only going to be a short term fix isn't he? Is that what we want?

So the only one I'd feel comfortable with his Hughton, as I say though I think he'd prefer a shot at the prem again, although not sure where he'd go realistically so we might be able to blag him to come.

[stinny1]

The truth his TM has been manager for three years and he's  took the club as far has he can . Unless theres a change  in the summer i can't  see anything  changing and  there needs too be real investment  on the pitch we will need a keeper three defenders  two wingers and a goal scorer  , Smallwood , Bennett , Williams, Samuel , Bell ,  need too be moved on

 

[Mashed Potatoes]

53 minutes ago, stinny1 said:

The truth his TM has been manager for three years and he's  took the club as far has he can . Unless theres a change  in the summer i can't  see anything  changing and  there needs too be real investment  on the pitch we will need a keeper three defenders  two wingers and a goal scorer  , Smallwood , Bennett , Williams, Samuel , Bell ,  need too be moved on

 

Whoever is responsible for recruitment if any is going to have to operate within the FFP rules which could be very challenging.

[RevidgeBlue]

11 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

Whoever is responsible for recruitment if any is going to have to operate within the FFP rules which could be very challenging.

Because Mowbray has left us in the brown and sticky stuff due to his appalling recruitment and his refusal to offload players that needed offloading. Much like Lambert did when he left us without a single senior striker under contract.

The fact that Mowbray has made it harder for any possible successor is not a factor in favour of keeping him though, it's an even stronger reason for getting rid before the situation deteriorates even further.

[Mashed Potatoes]

Just now, RevidgeBlue said:

Because Mowbray has left us in the brown and sticky stuff due to his appalling recruitment and his refusal to offload players that needed offloading. Much like Lambert did when he left us without a single senior striker under contract.

The fact that Mowbray has made it harder for any possible successor is not a factor in favour of keeping him though, it's an even stronger reason for getting rid before the situation deteriorates even further.

But what sort of manager will be attracted to the club in Mowbray's place if he realises that FFP constraints will restrict recruitment ? Probably the Owen Coyles of this world.

[RevidgeBlue]

2 hours ago, Ossydave said:

Ok realistically who do you think the owners could bring in to make us better? Not saying such a manager doesn't exist but I honestly struggle to think of many we could attract. At a push Chris Hughton, but not sure he'd come as i think he's holding out for a return to managing in the prem.

Allardyce, Hughes, Pullis, Hughton and Warnock are currently out of work. That's without even considering any up and coming young managers in the lower leagues.

Not saying all of the above would come but I would be surprised if one or two of them wouldn't be interested if enough money was on offer.