Tony Mowbray Discussion

[Roverthechimp]

31 minutes ago, OnePhilT said:

Is anybody else a bit Tony-bipolar?

Good description ?

Like him for the most part but non performances against shit teams is annoying.

[frosty]

14 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

3 points of the playoffs

We may as well be 13 points off - either way, we won't be threatening any promotion spots.

If ever any confirmation was needed, just look at the results in the last three games after being on a good run, and the Luton/Forest/QPR week back in September/October after back to back wins in the two games prior. Back down to cushy mid-table both times.

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, frosty said:

We may as well be 13 points off - either way, we won't be threatening any promotion spots.

If ever any confirmation was needed, just look at the results in the last three games after being on a good run, and the Luton/Forest/QPR week back in September/October after back to back wins in the two games prior. Back down to cushy mid-table both times.

Well that's your opinion. My opinion is very differently. 

Forest went on a bad run recently now back into top 6 

[LDRover]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

Well that's your opinion. My opinion is very differently. 

Forest went on a bad run recently now back into top 6 

We've never been in the top 6 and when given a solid gold opportunity reverted to type and bottled it.

May I ask what you have seen to cause yet another 180 from you?

And why have you used Forest as an example of form turning around when you say we'll win there tomorrow as they're on a bad run?

Edited December 31, 2019 by LDRover

[Exiled in Toronto]

2 hours ago, OnePhilT said:

When Mowbray was initially appointed, I felt largely indifferent. He was a manager on a bit of a scrap heap, but at least he had some deserved experience at fairly big clubs: Celtic; Middlesbrough; West Brom. While his record was mixed, he wasn't Owen Coyle. That's the only thing that mattered to me at that point. In spite of the general feeling about his appointment, we were really unlucky to be relegated that season after his efforts. I still cannot believe the results that Lee Johnson pulled off at Bristol City when I think they were in roughly the same position as us at that point. Ultimately, it bought him a bit of respect from me, and I was fine with him taking us into our League One season on the basis that he did above what I thought he'd do.

The early part of our League One season was pretty disastrous. I'm sure we were in the relegation zone at one point. Of course, the season ended up well for us, but it was results like Wimbledon and Donny at home that seem to epitomise Rovers under Mowbray. Charlton and Luton at home are this season's examples. Mowbray seems capable of pulling off good results when we least expect them, and then we tend to bomb against teams that we should be beating at a canter, particularly at home when the expectations rise.

My opinion of Mowbray isn't as polarised as others' seem to be. I go hot and cold on Mowbray for the above reasons: exceeding expectations, followed by not meeting them, and resulting in an outright balance. In one sense, I'm relieved that we're arguably an average Championship side considering the way that we were going before Mowbray arrived. In another sense, you always want more as a supporter, in spite of forgetting where we've recently been.

Mowbray has been here for almost three years. I mentioned some time ago that we've probably got the measure of him, and I think this message board roughly reflects a correct analysis. He's sometimes good, and sometimes not so good (give or take polarised opinions). Some days I feel like he's still good for the club. Other days I feel as though he's taken us as far as he can because of his own limitations. Some supporters point out that we should be wary of who our next manager could be, should we wish to change, while others point out that we shouldn't be afraid of that or settle for mediocrity. Again, some days I agree with one side, and other days I agree with the other.

Is anybody else a bit Tony-bipolar?

I think that sums up the crux of the argument. He clearly does have limitations - his propensity  for multiple shuffles of formation and player positions mid-game being the one that vexes me the most currently - but then he was on the scrap heap for a reason. Equally, his transfer activity is looking poorer by the week.

Not settling for mediocrity is a valid PoV, but surely only when the options are mediocrity or better. History has shown that the most likely outcome of a Venky’s management change is ruinous decline followed some way behind by relative stability. 

Being a mid-table Championship club leaves us much more buyable than if another Kean/Coyle took us down and we ended up doing a Sunderland and staying there. What matters is where the club will be in 5-10 years time when hopefully Venky’s are gone, not whether or not we are in a play-off place in December.

[davulsukur]

Mowbray is an infuriating manager.

He knows what works best for the team but is too stubborn to play it all the time because he wants us to be a possession based team.

I genuinely think if we stuck to our best set up and style (direct football + counter attacking) and ditched this crazy notion of being the Barca of the championship, we would currently occupy a place in the top 6.

[DE.]

We need to get back to playing the team and style that got us onto our winning run ASAP. Appreciate Dack is no longer around but put Rothwell or Holtby there and persevere. Continuing to fool around with our tactics and line up is only going to make things worse imo. We had a winning formula briefly and that starting eleven have proved they can win matches, so go back to that and hope that somebody can fill Dack's shoes.

[Amo]

2 hours ago, DE. said:

We need to get back to playing the team and style that got us onto our winning run ASAP. Appreciate Dack is no longer around but put Rothwell or Holtby there and persevere. Continuing to fool around with our tactics and line up is only going to make things worse imo. We had a winning formula briefly and that starting eleven have proved they can win matches, so go back to that and hope that somebody can fill Dack's shoes.

Problem is that the win at Bristol City probably validated his old approach. Nevermind the countless times it's failed miserably.

[tomphil]

5 minutes ago, Amo said:

Problem is that the win at Bristol City probably validated his old approach. Nevermind the countless times it's failed miserably.

That's exactly what happened the good run before hand earned him a pass for that. Once it hard worked though there wasn't a cat in hells chance of him going back to the balanced settled side, or as near to it as possible.

[47er]

8 hours ago, Roverthechimp said:

Not my words that you quote. Please edit

Apologies for that---genuine mistake.

[47er]

8 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Read the thread properly

I would say the squad are quite different but similar quality wise IMO. 

Yes Mowbray has rebuilt the club, put in place a proper scouting system, etc. 

After the Coyle episode alot of fans fell out of love with the club. I was close myself. So Mowbray has bought the fans back to the club and made it feel like our club. 

Actually if you read the thread properly I said yesterday that I said I would give him the season. 

Miss that one didn't you? 

But earlier in the season you didn't want to give him till summer, you wanted him gone. You blow with the wind mate.

[47er]

On 11/08/2019 at 23:44, roversfan99 said:

I had a quick think back over Mowbrays overall time here.

Firstly, he was brought in to perform an admittedly difficult task of survival. No matter how thats dressed up, he failed, often failing to turn draws into wins etc, and coming up short.

Early the season after, he had the first of for me his 2 major rough patches that he has experienced. Even though he was lucky when we went down that much of the crap that he was lumbered with, Lowe, Akpan, Greer, Brown etc were out of contract, he has only had one window and there was still lingering shite (a couple of whom he added himself) in the squad, and he was struggling to develop any sort of identity. He quickly settled on being quite direct, Graham improved us no end, him and Dack fired us to promotion and Mowbray deserved the adulation.

Last seasons dodgy patch was much more prolonged and, in terms of the manager, much more self-inflicted. He had failed to bring in any defenders, we were heavily reliant on a rash injury prone CB (and still are, his sole injury has left us with 2 options) and a liability in Mulgrew. All the money was tied up on a striker who looked out of his depth, often stuck wide with his only goal coming as a central striker. He publically admitted his faults and insisted to fans that "defenders were coming" so off the back of a season that had highlighted an incredibly troublesome achilles heel but ultimately was far from disastrous, he had the platform to right his previous wrongs and fix what he acknowledged was our major reason.

I think one thing that is clear is that we have never had an exciting brand of football in terms of pretty passing under Mowbray. Not that its essential I must add. Even in our promotion season, we rarely blew teams away, we were quite attritional but it ultimately gave us a platform for our better players who were a class above the poor standard in League 1, and worked very well. Last season was as bad in terms of entertainment as I can remember in recent memory, but it was less effective at a higher level. @chaddyrovers I dont understand why you turn your nose up at "boring" football, if that was number 1 priority then Mowbray would have been potted long ago. However, its the effectiveness that counts because fans criticise "boring" football only if it doesnt yield results. If we bored ourselves into the top 6 and went up no one would complain at all.

But you just look, 5 windows in at very much his squad and how imbalanced it is and that far down the line it really is inexcusable. The main 2 problems, a big money non-scoring striker and a dearth of quality and quantity in defence, have both been doubly compounded this summer. Gallagher never convinced me, we was told this is Breretons break through season, but in both games so far, he was left sat on the bench in game 1, and yesterday, again Mowbray hasnt learnt that he cannot play wide. I still think Graham should be first choice, but you cant really have 12m worth of strikers (the jury is massively out on both) sat on the bench so I think he likes to try and shoehorn them in to the detriment of the team. He has signed 2 wingers, one of whom is seemingly too old, the other has pace and spreads the play but for some unknown reason is nowhere near even the bench. Whereas Armstrong has a free pass despite regularly underperforming.

Defensively, Tosin and Cunningham have the potential to really improve the defence, but theres simply not enough in the way of options. One injury in that position and we have  a kid on the bench who couldnt get into Stanleys squad last season. Meanwhile, Bennett continues to monopolise the RB position, and again yesterday was responsible for a goal conceded. Will he start v Boro? You bet he will. Raya was a constant liability last season, have we improved on him? Seems not.

The question you ask is, are we progressing or stagnating? 

 

Read this for a post. As accurate and prophetic as could be. Says it all.

And its posted on August 11!!!

[Blow-in]

For those people saying "give home the rest of the season" are you sure you won't be saying " give him the summer window" followed by "give him to Christmas" 

Rinse.

Repeat.

[Stuart]

22 hours ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

I agree with you that there is a decent chance of staying in this division without massive expenditure; I would rather keep an experienced manager at the helm  than throw in someone who has been involved at first team level for less than 6 months.

Staying in this division is not the target.

[Stuart]

10 hours ago, 47er said:

Read this for a post. As accurate and prophetic as could be. Says it all.

And its posted on August 11!!!

The worst thing is, nothing has changed!

[Stuart]

15 hours ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

I think that sums up the crux of the argument. He clearly does have limitations - his propensity  for multiple shuffles of formation and player positions mid-game being the one that vexes me the most currently - but then he was on the scrap heap for a reason. Equally, his transfer activity is looking poorer by the week.

Not settling for mediocrity is a valid PoV, but surely only when the options are mediocrity or better. History has shown that the most likely outcome of a Venky’s management change is ruinous decline followed some way behind by relative stability. 

Being a mid-table Championship club leaves us much more buyable than if another Kean/Coyle took us down and we ended up doing a Sunderland and staying there. What matters is where the club will be in 5-10 years time when hopefully Venky’s are gone, not whether or not we are in a play-off place in December.

We will not be sold as a Championship club. Not unless Venkys decide to lose face by cutting their losses.

[AllRoverAsia]

23 minutes ago, Stuart said:

We will not be sold as a Championship club. Not unless Venkys decide to lose face by cutting their losses.

If they sold us now I doubt they would lose any face. Nobody would notice apart from Rovers fans, Rovers, thanks to the Vs are insignificant.

However, they are going nowhere.

I believe their tenure at Rovers will outlive me and other fans of my generation, and that irritates me no end.

They can fuck off to Hell in a handcart

[davulsukur]

Just now, AllRoverAsia said:

If they sold us now I doubt they would lose any face. Nobody would notice apart from Rovers fans, Rovers, thanks to the Vs are insignificant.

However, they are going nowhere.

I believe their tenure at Rovers will outlive me and other fans of my generation, and that irritates me no end.

They can fuck off to Hell in a handcart

The only reason people would notice is because they would be surprised they still own us. 

Non Rovers fans still ask me if the V's still own us.

Its generally greeted with laughter and surprise.

[Mashed Potatoes]

1 hour ago, Stuart said:

Staying in this division is not the target.

The club's financial position shows that large transfer expenditure cannot be undertaken because we would breach the FFP rules ; that makes promotion very hard indeed for any manager - albeit not impossible - and having a safe pair of hands in charge becomes an attractive proposition

[J*B]

1 minute ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

The club's financial position shows that large transfer expenditure cannot be undertaken because we would breach the FFP rules ; that makes promotion very hard indeed for any manager - albeit not impossible - and having a safe pair of hands in charge becomes an attractive proposition

Whilst it’s clearly not the easiest thing to do, the only way to work FFP is by getting the timing right.
You need to have the opportunity to spend when you’re close to the playoffs and the way to do that is by either not spending in the seasons beforehand (allowing you more flexibility later down the line), making a massive sale then spending that money well or cheat the system by selling off assets to your owners. 

If we had the 12m now which Brereton and Gallagher have cost us, we would probably go up. 
Mowbray gambled on these signings, they haven’t worked. To be fair Waggot has played FFP well to ensure that we have a decent squad - but the injuries to Cunningham and Dack have essentially ruined the season. It will be another 3 years before we’ve recovered from a FFP standpoint and can go again. 

[Mashed Potatoes]

Just now, J*B said:

Whilst it’s clearly not the easiest thing to do, the only way to work FFP is by getting the timing right.
You need to have the opportunity to spend when you’re close to the playoffs and the way to do that is by either not spending in the seasons beforehand (allowing you more flexibility later down the line), making a massive sale then spending that money well or cheat the system by selling off assets to your owners. 

If we had the 12m now which Brereton and Gallagher have cost us, we would probably go up. 
Mowbray gambled on these signings, they haven’t worked. To be fair Waggot has played FFP well to ensure that we have a decent squad - but the injuries to Cunningham and Dack have essentially ruined the season. It will be another 3 years before we’ve recovered from a FFP standpoint and can go again. 

You're probably right. The one thing I would say is that cheating the system is likely to be very much harder now because some clubs - notably Steve Gibson at Middlesbrough - are watching what is going on at other clubs like hawks and are prepared to take legal action to ensure the EFL enforce the rules.

[Stuart]

15 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

The club's financial position shows that large transfer expenditure cannot be undertaken because we would breach the FFP rules ; that makes promotion very hard indeed for any manager - albeit not impossible - and having a safe pair of hands in charge becomes an attractive proposition

So with FFP constraints, Mowbray has proven he is not the right man for the job.

Otherwise, it’s impossible to accept the FFP argument when the club continues to back a manager who has wasted £12m-£14m.

Edited January 1, 2020 by Stuart

[tomphil]

15 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

The club's financial position shows that large transfer expenditure cannot be undertaken because we would breach the FFP rules ; that makes promotion very hard indeed for any manager - albeit not impossible - and having a safe pair of hands in charge becomes an attractive proposition

That's true but it's also completely leaving out the wasted money that should have been put to better use under this manager. There are no lengths you won't go to to twist it in his favour by the looks of it.

He's done some good stuff but on this one he/they have stuffed up badly - fact

The way it's now being used by some to justify keeping him IN the job is almost political in its spin.  Alistar Campbell would be proud.

[Mashed Potatoes]

Just now, tomphil said:

That's true but it's also completely leaving out the wasted money that should have been put to better use under this manager. There are no lengths you won't go to to twist it in his favour by the looks of it.

He's done some good stuff but on this one he/they have stuffed up badly - fact

The way it's now being used by some to justify keeping him IN the job is almost political in its spin.  Alistar Campbell would be proud.

I'm trying to state the factual position as it now is with regard to the club's finances and the FFP implications - indeed there doesn't appear to be any disagreement.

Leading on from there any new manager will be working with considerable financial constraints and I've given my opinion that as a consequence (1) attracting proven big name managers like some of the names regularly mentioned on here is likely to be impossible and (2) preferring a novice in Damien Johnson to an experienced man like Tony Mowbray is probably a mistake. Of course you are free to give contrary opinions. 

[Mashed Potatoes]

Just now, Stuart said:

So with FFP constraints, Mowbray has proven he is not the right man for the job.

Otherwise, it’s impossible to accept the FFP argument when the club continues to back a manager who has wasted £12m-£14m.

I don't really understand your post but if "the job" is to get promotion to the Premier League with possibly no net spend in the transfer market from now on - and possibly a requirement to turn a profit - then you must realise that "the right man" is going to be very hard to identify because it's going to be so tough to do.