Tony Mowbray Discussion

[Ewood Ace]

With the financial results that we have seen this week I think it is unsustainable that this club can carry on over the next few years going along mid table in the Championship. Within the next few years one way or another we will be out of this league either through a promotion or by repeating what happened in 16/17 buy selling our assets and brining in cheap replacements. Mowbray has already taken us out of this league one way and I don't see him as the man to take us out of it the other way.

[Pedro]

25 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

Thanks. To really answer your question I would need to know the actual facts regarding the FFP position that the club is in - because I think that would have to be explained to any potential successor so there could be no question of them feeling they had been misled as to the task in hand. I take on board everything you say but what worries me is that getting someone better than Mowbray will become all but impossible if the FFP position really is as difficult as it has become at other clubs. I would axe him if I thought he was taking us down - along with pretty much everyone else I wanted Owen Coyle fired because it was clear he was going to relegate us - but I don't think we are going down under Mowbray, or at least not this season.

Genuine unloaded questions, I'd love to hear your responses to any of them;

What is so good about Mowbray that makes him the best and seemingly only option for Blackburn Rovers?

Do you think you have very low levels of expectation for Blackburn Rovers?

Do you think the team look fit and organised?

Do you think that the considerable transfer funds have been spent sensibly and appropriately?

Do you think the young players are progressing under him or do you think that many of their careers being damaged by being played out of their depth or out of position?

Which other manager would pick Bennett as first choice right back, Gallagher as a first choice winger/RM, play a 36 year old in 4 positions in the same match?

Can you think of another time where Rovers have conceded two or more goals with such shameful regularity?

Do you think that after 3 years in the role, any other manager would only buy Paul Downing and Amari Bell to solve such obvious defensive failings?

If you answered them honestly, do you think we have a strong and valid point to be critical of TM?

[TBTF]

39 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Since he came in we seem to have revolutions our training facilities. Someone posted an Instagram link. Is it a coincidence that has happened just after he stepped up.

In any case, this is Mowbray’s team. How does Johnson influence who is picked and what the match tactics are? He can give his opinion but ultimately it is Mowbray’s decision.

I will go off what I have seen with Johnson and the U23 side. He hasn’t suddenly stopped knowing how to set teams up. He built a team who played the game in the right way. Players like Rothwell, Holtby, Dack, Butterworth, Chapman would thrive in a side built in Johnson’s image rather than Mowbray’s.

Fine Stuart , you obviously have more insight than I do . Like I said , not knocking the bloke and if what you say is true then I imagine he must be sat there scratching his head at the tombola and even more at the positional changes during games .

[Exiled in Toronto]

Just now, Pedro said:

Genuine unloaded questions, I'd love to hear your responses to any of them;

What is so good about Mowbray that makes him the best and seemingly only option for Blackburn Rovers?

Do you think you have very low levels of expectation for Blackburn Rovers?

Do you think the team look fit and organised?

Do you think that the considerable transfer funds have been spent sensibly and appropriately?

Do you think the young players are progressing under him or do you think that many of their careers being damaged by being played out of their depth or out of position?

Which other manager would pick Bennett as first choice right back, Gallagher as a first choice winger/RM, play a 36 year old in 4 positions in the same match?

Can you think of another time where Rovers have conceded two or more goals with such shameful regularity?

Do you think that after 3 years in the role, any other manager would only buy Paul Downing and Amari Bell to solve such obvious defensive failings?

If you answered them honestly, do you think we have a strong and valid point to be critical of TM?

The bigger question is: why, when the owners have had SIX opportunities to appoint a better manager than a washed-up, unemployed Mowbray, have they not done so? Of course there are better managers than him available, just as there were when Kean, Berg, Appleton, Boyer, Lambert and Mowbray were appointed. Which makes me think that who is or might be available is completely irrelevant to the debate.

[Stuart]

Just now, TBTF said:

Fine Stuart , you obviously have more insight than I do . Like I said , not knocking the bloke and if what you say is true then I imagine he must be sat there scratching his head at the tombola and even more at the positional changes during games .

Even so, it would be very interesting to be a fly on the wall in the meetings, especially post-match, that I assume Johnson is party to...

[Mashed Potatoes]

Just now, Pedro said:

Genuine unloaded questions, I'd love to hear your responses to any of them;

What is so good about Mowbray that makes him the best and seemingly only option for Blackburn Rovers?

Do you think you have very low levels of expectation for Blackburn Rovers?

Do you think the team look fit and organised?

Do you think that the considerable transfer funds have been spent sensibly and appropriately?

Do you think the young players are progressing under him or do you think that many of their careers being damaged by being played out of their depth or out of position?

Which other manager would pick Bennett as first choice right back, Gallagher as a first choice winger/RM, play a 36 year old in 4 positions in the same match?

Can you think of another time where Rovers have conceded two or more goals with such shameful regularity?

Do you think that after 3 years in the role, any other manager would only buy Paul Downing and Amari Bell to solve such obvious defensive failings?

If you answered them honestly, do you think we have a strong and valid point to be critical of TM?

Here goes :

1. Mowbray is not the only option but my opinion is that the poor judgement of the owners and the FFP rules mean that no better manager would be hired.

2. As I am a football supporter not a consumer I have hopes rather than expectations. I hope that one day the club will return to the Premier League and win the FA Cup.

3. Fit - yes. Organised - varies from good to bad from game to game.

4. No

5 No real complaints regarding the way young players are progressing.

6 I thought Nyambe was now first choice right back. Agree about Gallagher. Downing is versatile just like Milner at Liverpool

7 Three years ago under Owen Coyle for starters, and no doubt the other relegation seasons as well.

8 Manager has brought in loan players for defence - there may be pressure from the owners not to spend in that area.

9. Yes you can be critical of TM; believe it or not I am as well but it is the conclusion that as of now he should be fired that I disagree with.

[Prelude]

On 30/12/2019 at 16:22, K-Hod said:

But he wins football matches at this level. 
Craig Bellamy and Robbie Savage were the same, but they were great for us!
It’s a manager we need, not a saint.

Steve Keen has about the same redeeming qualities as Warnock, he is an embarrassment. 

[Pedro]

Just now, Mashed Potatoes said:

Here goes :

1. Mowbray is not the only option but my opinion is that the poor judgement of the owners and the FFP rules mean that no better manager would be hired.

2. As I am a football supporter not a consumer I have hopes rather than expectations. I hope that one day the club will return to the Premier League and win the FA Cup.

3. Fit - yes. Organised - varies from good to bad from game to game.

4. No

5 No real complaints regarding the way young players are progressing.

6 I thought Nyambe was now first choice right back. Agree about Gallagher. Downing is versatile just like Milner at Liverpool

7 Three years ago under Owen Coyle for starters, and no doubt the other relegation seasons as well.

8 Manager has brought in loan players for defence - there may be pressure from the owners not to spend in that area.

9. Yes you can be critical of TM; believe it or not I am as well but it is the conclusion that as of now he should be fired that I disagree with.

Thanks.

 

I feel that for some reason, Mowbray flatters to deceive some. In terms of conceding 2 or more goals, nobody in my lifetime has done it with such regularity. In fact, In the relegation season, I think Coyle's Rovers did it on 6 occasions, Mowbray was 5 in his shorter stay. One less goal conceded would've kept us up (I think - without checking). In 2019, I think we conceded two or more approximately 20 times - which is ridiculously bad.

 

In terms of developing young players, Travis is going backwards fast, Chapman - invisible until days ago, Brereton- obvious, Gallagher - mainly stuffed on the wing, Nyambe - dropped for a thirty-odd year old midfielder, the centre backs have been shipped out in favour of leftbacks, midfielders, Buckley has been thrown in any old place, Armstrong has done ok at times.

My opinion, Mowbray's terrible massive investments have put us at risk of FFP, we are a disjointed, leaking ship when we aren't under restriction - imagine what state we'll be when we can't sign players.

[Silas]

Mowbray's dry spells during the last 13 months:

Dec 18- 5 games winless (2 pts gained)

Feb 19- 7 games winless (1 pts gained)

Oct 19- 6 games winless (2 pts gained)

Dec 19- 4 games winless (2 pts gained)

Just 10% of points picked up in those periods.

 

This isn't just the odd blip. It's a fairly prominent pattern. Those spells cover about 3.5 of the last 13 months. So he is in these periods for a quarter of the time recently. 

Figures like that are not screaming to me about a manager taking the club forward.

In fact, they scare the hell out of me. I expect this winless run to reach 6 league games too.

 To put it in startling perspective,  if we got 10% of points over a season we would end up with 14 pts at the end. And be relegated breaking all records no doubt. 

[OldEwoodBlue]

1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Mowbray says he wont give excuses, then goes on to talk solely about our busy schedule and having 5 games in 13 days. 

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/18132204.manchester-city-defender-see-loan-spell-rovers/

Also,this is interesting. A quote on tosin. Not definitive to me 

Article confirms there was (is) a clause for him to go back in January.

That last week they didn't know what the situation was and were asking City.

And I agree it isn't a definitive answer just TMs appraisal of what he knows up to press.

He has been shite the last two games since his mysterious absence is the only certainty.

Edited January 1, 2020 by OldEwoodBlue

[OldEwoodBlue]

Just now, Silas said:

Mowbray's dry spells during the last 13 months:

Dec 18- 5 games winless (2 pts gained)

Feb 19- 7 games winless (1 pts gained)

Oct 19- 6 games winless (2 pts gained)

Dec 19- 4 games winless (2 pts gained)

Just 10% of points picked up in those periods.

 

With the exception of this recent run.... That was with Dack.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, OldEwoodBlue said:

With the exception of this recent run.... That was with Dack.

Scary 

[davulsukur]

The argument that Venkys probably won't appoint a good manager is a valid one, as in their entire ownership of the club they are yet to appoint a good one.

Worryingly, you could put a case forward for Mowbray being the best so far (Probably Bowyer for me) and this is a manager who can't select players in their correct positions.

Mowbray isn't a good manager at all, so I'd rather spin the wheel and see who comes in, as opposed to sticking with someone who's not working.

Edited January 1, 2020 by davulsukur

[K-Hod]

4 minutes ago, Prelude said:

Steve Keen has about the same redeeming qualities as Warnock, he is an embarrassment. 

You’ve ignored my point. We are talking about a manager for the football club, not someone to go for a pint with.

He might well be a prick, but he’s got a track record of winning football matches and gaining promotion from this division.

Edited January 1, 2020 by K-Hod

[Ossydave]

Warnock said this is definitely his last season as a manager as he wants to enjoy life with his missus whilst they still can. So yeah in theory he could step in for a few months and see what he could do, what's the point though? He ain't gonna work with the Venkys not a chance. If anything he might accept an SOS job to save a team from relegation then bow out head held high.

Edited January 1, 2020 by Ossydave

[DE.]

9 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Scary 

It really is. Dack has dug Mowbray out of the shit so many times in the past, now he's relying on the likes of Holtby or Rothwell to do the same and I just don't think it's going to happen. Not with anywhere near the same level of consistency anyway. We could be in for a really bad spell over the next few months. 

[Silas]

Just now, Ossydave said:

Warnock said this is definitely his last season as a manager as he wants to enjoy life with his missus whilst they still can. So yeah in theory he could step in for a few months and see what he could do, what's the point though? He ain't gonna work with the Venkys not a chance. If anything he might accept an SOS job to save a team from relegation then bow out head held high.

That's the issue for me, we need a long term plan, not a short term fix.

Like with Moyes at WH now. Cracking start for him today, and he'll do all right and steer them to safe waters. But I don't think he's the future for the club. They need another option.

It's nothing personal against the manager, he has pedigree, and a fairly impressive CV. Just don't reckon he has what it takes to push them to top 8.

I see TM as similar. A safe pair of hands and will keep things steady, but can he mount a promotion push? I don't believe so. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, DE. said:

It really is. Dack has dug Mowbray out of the shit so many times in the past, now he's relying on the likes of Holtby or Rothwell to do the same and I just don't think it's going to happen. Not with anywhere near the same level of consistency anyway. We could be in for a really bad spell over the next few months. 

I dont think Holtby had even been prolific. Rothwell is gone to shit and being honest I dont see Brereton scoring 5 more goals whilst he is here. Its worrying times alright and I dont think it's going to be an enjoyable few months til the end of the season. 

Obviously losing Dack is a blow,but I think its literally after causing Mowbrays brain to explode. We could be tail spinning for weeks while he trys to figure this out. The annoying part is it shouldn't have to be so complicated 

[davulsukur]

Just now, Silas said:

That's the issue for me, we need a long term plan, not a short term fix.

Like with Moyes at WH now. Cracking start for him today, and he'll do all right and steer them to safe waters. But I don't think he's the future for the club. They need another option.

It's nothing personal against the manager, he has pedigree, and a fairly impressive CV. Just don't reckon he has what it takes to push them to top 8.

I see TM as similar. A safe pair of hands and will keep things steady, but can he mount a promotion push? I don't believe so. 

I don't see Mowbray as a safe pair of hands at all.

We are now on one of his classic winless runs that could stretch on for a long time.

Every game is on a knife edge as we could turn up and look the part or look like we just met in the car park 20mins before kick off.

It won't last, give him enough time and he won't be able to pull his usual rabbit out of the hat anymore.

[DE.]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

I dont think Holtby had even been prolific. Rothwell is gone to shit and being honest I dont see Brereton scoring 5 more goals whilst he is here. Its worrying times alright and I dont think it's going to be an enjoyable few months til the end of the season. 

Obviously losing Dack is a blow,but I think its literally after causing Mowbrays brain to explode. We could be tail spinning for weeks while he trys to figure this out. The annoying part is it shouldn't have to be so complicated 

Holtby has looked decent at times but I think like many others in the team he's confused about what the manager really wants him to do. Plus his natural fitness appears to be pretty poor so relying on Holtby is asking for trouble. I had high hopes for Rothwell but frankly he's disappointed for the most part since being given his chance. Brereton is useless at present. 

I completely agree that it doesn't need to be so complicated. Go back to what we were doing during the winning run - we obviously can't replicate that team man for man due to injuries etc, but get as close to it as possible. Walton - Nyambe/Lenihan/Tosin/Downing - Rothwell/Evans/Travis/Armstrong - Holtby (or Buckley, or Rothwell with somebody else out right) - Graham. Same formation, same tactics, same overall preparation. Give these lads some consistency in approach and pray that results come. The mad scientist approach Mowbray is taking right now is the exact opposite of what we need. It worked once against Bristol City but I think it's becoming clear that it was much more because they had an off day than because we were just too good for them. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, DE. said:

Holtby has looked decent at times but I think like many others in the team he's confused about what the manager really wants him to do. Plus his natural fitness appears to be pretty poor so relying on Holtby is asking for trouble. I had high hopes for Rothwell but frankly he's disappointed for the most part since being given his chance. Brereton is useless at present. 

I completely agree that it doesn't need to be so complicated. Go back to what we were doing during the winning run - we obviously can't replicate that team man for man due to injuries etc, but get as close to it as possible. Walton - Nyambe/Lenihan/Tosin/Downing - Rothwell/Evans/Travis/Armstrong - Holtby (or Buckley, or Rothwell with somebody else out right) - Graham. Same formation, same tactics, same overall preparation. Give these lads some consistency in approach and pray that results come. The mad scientist approach Mowbray is taking right now is the exact opposite of what we need. It worked once against Bristol City but I think it's becoming clear that it was much more because they had an off day than because we were just too good for them. 

Ya and I watched the highlights of that game again the other day,like many games in this league,it was very fine margins. They missed 2 very good chances in the 1st half. They score then,we ain't winning. 

Ya I'm actually scared about how far down this rabbit hole mowbray is going to go. Like the way he's talking about needed a break to digest that Dack is gone and to figure out how to play without him. The players must hear this and be wondering why is he saying it. As the leader and manager he should be trying to minimize Dacks loss. Psychologically at first.  At the moment he is actually making a bad situation worse. 

Edited January 1, 2020 by Bigdoggsteel

[DE.]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Ya and I watched the highlights of that game again the other day,like many games in this league,it was very fine margins. They missed 2 very good chances in the 1st half. They score then,we ain't winning. 

Ya I'm actually scared about how far down this rabbit hole mowbray is going to go. Like the way he's talking about needed a break to digest that Dack is gone and to figure out how to play without him. The players must hear this and be wondering why is he saying it. As the leader and manager he should be trying to minimize Dacks loss. Psychologically at first.  At the moment he is actually making a bad situation worse. 

Mowbray is often too candid for his own good. Frankly he should already have prepared for the possibility of Dack being unavailable for a while - especially if it's true that we were planning to sell him in January anyway. When a player is that important you have to consider backup plans if they suddenly get injured or are sold. I mean theoretically I suppose Mowbray could have had a target in mind to bring in when Dack was moved on, but I'm sceptical considering our haphazard approach to Raya and Mulgrew's departures in the summer. Plus any new arrival would probably spend weeks "getting used to the way we play" before being introduced anyway, so what would we have been doing in the meantime? 

[47er]

2 hours ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

Thanks. To really answer your question I would need to know the actual facts regarding the FFP position that the club is in - because I think that would have to be explained to any potential successor so there could be no question of them feeling they had been misled as to the task in hand. I take on board everything you say but what worries me is that getting someone better than Mowbray will become all but impossible if the FFP position really is as difficult as it has become at other clubs. I would axe him if I thought he was taking us down - along with pretty much everyone else I wanted Owen Coyle fired because it was clear he was going to relegate us - but I don't think we are going down under Mowbray, or at least not this season.

Surely we don't think its good enough to have a manager who won't take us down do we? He's had the financial backing Bowyer never had after all.

3 years and nothing better than stagnation? And given the financial position, worse than stagnation.

We are in an utter mess and I would take the gamble with Johnson, at least on a trial basis.But a good hungry manager from the lower league might do alright as well. I can't see how it could be worse.

A load of ageing players with no resale value, several hardly playing a game for us, can't defend, winning streak in combat with losing streak and losing streaks winning, this is absolute torture and I don't see how it can continue like this without very serious consequences for us.

But the manager stays----right?

[47er]

3 hours ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

No doubt we are an attractive proposition to many managers - Ian Dowie is dusting off his CV as we speak- but probably not the good ones.

The £12m is gone and getting rid of the manager does not bring it back - with a contract until June 2022 payoffs mean that FFP gets even tighter.

Well there's a welcome change. Nobody arguing anymore that the £12M hasn't "gone" then? No-one expecting Brereton to do a Lazarus?

[47er]

3 hours ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

No - I hadn't heard of Wagner or Farke. I have no idea if there is anybody at the club with the sort of knowledge to do what you suggest - the owners seem to favour the use of agents and external consultants for this sort of thing. Nobody on here is blasting other fans for being negative for wanting a charge - it's just a minority of us are trying to point out there are potential pitfalls which in our view point to keeping the manager.

You insult our intelligence. Do you really think your "minority" have the gift of seeing the potential pitfalls of appointing a new manager and the majority don't? 

Utter arrogance. Most of us on here have been around the block a few times more than you.

Do you really think we can carry on like this?