Tony Mowbray Discussion

[TBTF]

27 minutes ago, Stuart said:

It’s hardly new for people to come out with “We will never get better”. People even thought that about Owen Effing Coyle.

It’s so weak, it can barely be called an argument.

I would genuinely sooner have Johnson in charge. But there are certainly better managers out there. If we don’t trust Venkys to hire one then everything is an illusion and Mowbray is part of that so it’s a vicious cycle.

In no way am I knocking Damien Johnson but he’s been in the 1st team  set up for quite a while now . So Is he agreeing with the approach we are currently taking or sat there day in day out saying nothing and having no input ?

what is his contribution to this current mess?? Genuine question , I don’t know the answer . But if he’s part of all this then not certain why the clamour to make him number 1 . I see no indication that he’s changed / influenced anything yet . As for Lowe, Venus well they can just clear off immediately.

[Mashed Potatoes]

Just now, Riverside under the drip said:

Fair enough. Genuine question. At what point would you think the risk would be greater keeping him? For me, the eye-watering debts and risk of Venkys finally clearing off mean we HAVE to kick on and get promoted as soon as possible with no time for 'stability' and treading water for the next few years. To me therefore, bumbling around mid-table is as bad as the risk of relegation. That's why I want a change as Mowbray's entire career points to this being a period of stagnation.

Thanks. To really answer your question I would need to know the actual facts regarding the FFP position that the club is in - because I think that would have to be explained to any potential successor so there could be no question of them feeling they had been misled as to the task in hand. I take on board everything you say but what worries me is that getting someone better than Mowbray will become all but impossible if the FFP position really is as difficult as it has become at other clubs. I would axe him if I thought he was taking us down - along with pretty much everyone else I wanted Owen Coyle fired because it was clear he was going to relegate us - but I don't think we are going down under Mowbray, or at least not this season.

[Norbert Rassragr]

Get rid of the whole Coventry City gang including Waggott. Things are just in stasis until the next fire sale to avoid FUP when we will see Dack and any decent player sold and players of the standard of Feeney, Brown and Delfonso come in because they're cheap.

[Stuart]

Just now, TBTF said:

In no way am I knocking Damien Johnson but he’s been in the 1st team  set up for quite a while now . So Is he agreeing with the approach we are currently taking or sat there day in day out saying nothing and having no input ?

what is his contribution to this current mess?? Genuine question , I don’t know the answer . But if he’s part of all this then not certain why the clamour to make him number 1 . I see no indication that he’s changed / influenced anything yet . As for Lowe, Venus well they can just clear off immediately.

Since he came in we seem to have revolutions our training facilities. Someone posted an Instagram link. Is it a coincidence that has happened just after he stepped up.

In any case, this is Mowbray’s team. How does Johnson influence who is picked and what the match tactics are? He can give his opinion but ultimately it is Mowbray’s decision.

I will go off what I have seen with Johnson and the U23 side. He hasn’t suddenly stopped knowing how to set teams up. He built a team who played the game in the right way. Players like Rothwell, Holtby, Dack, Butterworth, Chapman would thrive in a side built in Johnson’s image rather than Mowbray’s.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Mowbray says he wont give excuses, then goes on to talk solely about our busy schedule and having 5 games in 13 days. 

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/18132204.manchester-city-defender-see-loan-spell-rovers/

Also,this is interesting. A quote on tosin. Not definitive to me 

[DE.]

All managers eventually get to the point where things begin to get stale, typically nowadays after 2 or 3 seasons max. We're even seeing it with Pep at City this season. Eventually a change is needed. Obviously the risk of Venky's appointing a total dunce is high, but equally how long can we realistically sustain these types of losses plodding around in mid-table Championship purgatory? Nobody knows for sure but the only way I see us becoming a genuinely sellable asset is by gaining promotion to the PL and I think almost everybody is in agreement that Mowbray isn't the man to achieve that. Even with FFP in mind it's a case of ambition - keeping Mowbray is at best guaranteeing us lower mid-table finishes every season, at worst relegation if the squad begins to get sold off and the manager makes even more poor signings. Dack aside our best and most consistent players, by and large, have been the ones Mowbray inherited as opposed to the ones he's brought to the club. Raya, Lenihan, Travis, Evans (on and off), Graham... once these players are gone, and if they have any ambition they will be gone sooner rather than later, I really fear for us if Mowbray is still in charge. His attempts at replacing Graham have frankly been appalling and thus far we've had Walton on loan as replacement for Raya. I dread to think how he'd replace Lenihan (who isn't even that good, but we can certainly bring in worse), Travis or Dack (as and when he moves on). 

Our youngsters may fill some of those holes but Travis aside we haven't seen many of our youth players truly elevated to become legitimate first teamers. Raya was sold after inconsistent form and public criticism from the manager, Nyambe has been in and out of the team - often behind Bennett, Buckley has had a few starts but doesn't look ready yet, and... well, that's about it isn't it? Lenihan was 22 or 23 when Mowbray arrived and already a first teamer so can't really be counted in the same bracket. We need a manager who can genuinely develop our younger players whilst finding bargains in the transfer market and I'm not confident at all that Mowbray is the man to do that. 

[Ewood Ace]

With the financial results that we have seen this week I think it is unsustainable that this club can carry on over the next few years going along mid table in the Championship. Within the next few years one way or another we will be out of this league either through a promotion or by repeating what happened in 16/17 buy selling our assets and brining in cheap replacements. Mowbray has already taken us out of this league one way and I don't see him as the man to take us out of it the other way.

[Pedro]

25 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

Thanks. To really answer your question I would need to know the actual facts regarding the FFP position that the club is in - because I think that would have to be explained to any potential successor so there could be no question of them feeling they had been misled as to the task in hand. I take on board everything you say but what worries me is that getting someone better than Mowbray will become all but impossible if the FFP position really is as difficult as it has become at other clubs. I would axe him if I thought he was taking us down - along with pretty much everyone else I wanted Owen Coyle fired because it was clear he was going to relegate us - but I don't think we are going down under Mowbray, or at least not this season.

Genuine unloaded questions, I'd love to hear your responses to any of them;

What is so good about Mowbray that makes him the best and seemingly only option for Blackburn Rovers?

Do you think you have very low levels of expectation for Blackburn Rovers?

Do you think the team look fit and organised?

Do you think that the considerable transfer funds have been spent sensibly and appropriately?

Do you think the young players are progressing under him or do you think that many of their careers being damaged by being played out of their depth or out of position?

Which other manager would pick Bennett as first choice right back, Gallagher as a first choice winger/RM, play a 36 year old in 4 positions in the same match?

Can you think of another time where Rovers have conceded two or more goals with such shameful regularity?

Do you think that after 3 years in the role, any other manager would only buy Paul Downing and Amari Bell to solve such obvious defensive failings?

If you answered them honestly, do you think we have a strong and valid point to be critical of TM?

[TBTF]

39 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Since he came in we seem to have revolutions our training facilities. Someone posted an Instagram link. Is it a coincidence that has happened just after he stepped up.

In any case, this is Mowbray’s team. How does Johnson influence who is picked and what the match tactics are? He can give his opinion but ultimately it is Mowbray’s decision.

I will go off what I have seen with Johnson and the U23 side. He hasn’t suddenly stopped knowing how to set teams up. He built a team who played the game in the right way. Players like Rothwell, Holtby, Dack, Butterworth, Chapman would thrive in a side built in Johnson’s image rather than Mowbray’s.

Fine Stuart , you obviously have more insight than I do . Like I said , not knocking the bloke and if what you say is true then I imagine he must be sat there scratching his head at the tombola and even more at the positional changes during games .

[Exiled in Toronto]

Just now, Pedro said:

Genuine unloaded questions, I'd love to hear your responses to any of them;

What is so good about Mowbray that makes him the best and seemingly only option for Blackburn Rovers?

Do you think you have very low levels of expectation for Blackburn Rovers?

Do you think the team look fit and organised?

Do you think that the considerable transfer funds have been spent sensibly and appropriately?

Do you think the young players are progressing under him or do you think that many of their careers being damaged by being played out of their depth or out of position?

Which other manager would pick Bennett as first choice right back, Gallagher as a first choice winger/RM, play a 36 year old in 4 positions in the same match?

Can you think of another time where Rovers have conceded two or more goals with such shameful regularity?

Do you think that after 3 years in the role, any other manager would only buy Paul Downing and Amari Bell to solve such obvious defensive failings?

If you answered them honestly, do you think we have a strong and valid point to be critical of TM?

The bigger question is: why, when the owners have had SIX opportunities to appoint a better manager than a washed-up, unemployed Mowbray, have they not done so? Of course there are better managers than him available, just as there were when Kean, Berg, Appleton, Boyer, Lambert and Mowbray were appointed. Which makes me think that who is or might be available is completely irrelevant to the debate.

[Stuart]

Just now, TBTF said:

Fine Stuart , you obviously have more insight than I do . Like I said , not knocking the bloke and if what you say is true then I imagine he must be sat there scratching his head at the tombola and even more at the positional changes during games .

Even so, it would be very interesting to be a fly on the wall in the meetings, especially post-match, that I assume Johnson is party to...

[Mashed Potatoes]

Just now, Pedro said:

Genuine unloaded questions, I'd love to hear your responses to any of them;

What is so good about Mowbray that makes him the best and seemingly only option for Blackburn Rovers?

Do you think you have very low levels of expectation for Blackburn Rovers?

Do you think the team look fit and organised?

Do you think that the considerable transfer funds have been spent sensibly and appropriately?

Do you think the young players are progressing under him or do you think that many of their careers being damaged by being played out of their depth or out of position?

Which other manager would pick Bennett as first choice right back, Gallagher as a first choice winger/RM, play a 36 year old in 4 positions in the same match?

Can you think of another time where Rovers have conceded two or more goals with such shameful regularity?

Do you think that after 3 years in the role, any other manager would only buy Paul Downing and Amari Bell to solve such obvious defensive failings?

If you answered them honestly, do you think we have a strong and valid point to be critical of TM?

Here goes :

1. Mowbray is not the only option but my opinion is that the poor judgement of the owners and the FFP rules mean that no better manager would be hired.

2. As I am a football supporter not a consumer I have hopes rather than expectations. I hope that one day the club will return to the Premier League and win the FA Cup.

3. Fit - yes. Organised - varies from good to bad from game to game.

4. No

5 No real complaints regarding the way young players are progressing.

6 I thought Nyambe was now first choice right back. Agree about Gallagher. Downing is versatile just like Milner at Liverpool

7 Three years ago under Owen Coyle for starters, and no doubt the other relegation seasons as well.

8 Manager has brought in loan players for defence - there may be pressure from the owners not to spend in that area.

9. Yes you can be critical of TM; believe it or not I am as well but it is the conclusion that as of now he should be fired that I disagree with.

[Prelude]

On 30/12/2019 at 16:22, K-Hod said:

But he wins football matches at this level. 
Craig Bellamy and Robbie Savage were the same, but they were great for us!
It’s a manager we need, not a saint.

Steve Keen has about the same redeeming qualities as Warnock, he is an embarrassment. 

[Pedro]

Just now, Mashed Potatoes said:

Here goes :

1. Mowbray is not the only option but my opinion is that the poor judgement of the owners and the FFP rules mean that no better manager would be hired.

2. As I am a football supporter not a consumer I have hopes rather than expectations. I hope that one day the club will return to the Premier League and win the FA Cup.

3. Fit - yes. Organised - varies from good to bad from game to game.

4. No

5 No real complaints regarding the way young players are progressing.

6 I thought Nyambe was now first choice right back. Agree about Gallagher. Downing is versatile just like Milner at Liverpool

7 Three years ago under Owen Coyle for starters, and no doubt the other relegation seasons as well.

8 Manager has brought in loan players for defence - there may be pressure from the owners not to spend in that area.

9. Yes you can be critical of TM; believe it or not I am as well but it is the conclusion that as of now he should be fired that I disagree with.

Thanks.

 

I feel that for some reason, Mowbray flatters to deceive some. In terms of conceding 2 or more goals, nobody in my lifetime has done it with such regularity. In fact, In the relegation season, I think Coyle's Rovers did it on 6 occasions, Mowbray was 5 in his shorter stay. One less goal conceded would've kept us up (I think - without checking). In 2019, I think we conceded two or more approximately 20 times - which is ridiculously bad.

 

In terms of developing young players, Travis is going backwards fast, Chapman - invisible until days ago, Brereton- obvious, Gallagher - mainly stuffed on the wing, Nyambe - dropped for a thirty-odd year old midfielder, the centre backs have been shipped out in favour of leftbacks, midfielders, Buckley has been thrown in any old place, Armstrong has done ok at times.

My opinion, Mowbray's terrible massive investments have put us at risk of FFP, we are a disjointed, leaking ship when we aren't under restriction - imagine what state we'll be when we can't sign players.

[Silas]

Mowbray's dry spells during the last 13 months:

Dec 18- 5 games winless (2 pts gained)

Feb 19- 7 games winless (1 pts gained)

Oct 19- 6 games winless (2 pts gained)

Dec 19- 4 games winless (2 pts gained)

Just 10% of points picked up in those periods.

 

This isn't just the odd blip. It's a fairly prominent pattern. Those spells cover about 3.5 of the last 13 months. So he is in these periods for a quarter of the time recently. 

Figures like that are not screaming to me about a manager taking the club forward.

In fact, they scare the hell out of me. I expect this winless run to reach 6 league games too.

 To put it in startling perspective,  if we got 10% of points over a season we would end up with 14 pts at the end. And be relegated breaking all records no doubt. 

[OldEwoodBlue]

1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Mowbray says he wont give excuses, then goes on to talk solely about our busy schedule and having 5 games in 13 days. 

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/18132204.manchester-city-defender-see-loan-spell-rovers/

Also,this is interesting. A quote on tosin. Not definitive to me 

Article confirms there was (is) a clause for him to go back in January.

That last week they didn't know what the situation was and were asking City.

And I agree it isn't a definitive answer just TMs appraisal of what he knows up to press.

He has been shite the last two games since his mysterious absence is the only certainty.

Edited January 1, 2020 by OldEwoodBlue

[OldEwoodBlue]

Just now, Silas said:

Mowbray's dry spells during the last 13 months:

Dec 18- 5 games winless (2 pts gained)

Feb 19- 7 games winless (1 pts gained)

Oct 19- 6 games winless (2 pts gained)

Dec 19- 4 games winless (2 pts gained)

Just 10% of points picked up in those periods.

 

With the exception of this recent run.... That was with Dack.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, OldEwoodBlue said:

With the exception of this recent run.... That was with Dack.

Scary 

[davulsukur]

The argument that Venkys probably won't appoint a good manager is a valid one, as in their entire ownership of the club they are yet to appoint a good one.

Worryingly, you could put a case forward for Mowbray being the best so far (Probably Bowyer for me) and this is a manager who can't select players in their correct positions.

Mowbray isn't a good manager at all, so I'd rather spin the wheel and see who comes in, as opposed to sticking with someone who's not working.

Edited January 1, 2020 by davulsukur

[K-Hod]

4 minutes ago, Prelude said:

Steve Keen has about the same redeeming qualities as Warnock, he is an embarrassment. 

You’ve ignored my point. We are talking about a manager for the football club, not someone to go for a pint with.

He might well be a prick, but he’s got a track record of winning football matches and gaining promotion from this division.

Edited January 1, 2020 by K-Hod

[Ossydave]

Warnock said this is definitely his last season as a manager as he wants to enjoy life with his missus whilst they still can. So yeah in theory he could step in for a few months and see what he could do, what's the point though? He ain't gonna work with the Venkys not a chance. If anything he might accept an SOS job to save a team from relegation then bow out head held high.

Edited January 1, 2020 by Ossydave

[DE.]

9 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Scary 

It really is. Dack has dug Mowbray out of the shit so many times in the past, now he's relying on the likes of Holtby or Rothwell to do the same and I just don't think it's going to happen. Not with anywhere near the same level of consistency anyway. We could be in for a really bad spell over the next few months. 

[Silas]

Just now, Ossydave said:

Warnock said this is definitely his last season as a manager as he wants to enjoy life with his missus whilst they still can. So yeah in theory he could step in for a few months and see what he could do, what's the point though? He ain't gonna work with the Venkys not a chance. If anything he might accept an SOS job to save a team from relegation then bow out head held high.

That's the issue for me, we need a long term plan, not a short term fix.

Like with Moyes at WH now. Cracking start for him today, and he'll do all right and steer them to safe waters. But I don't think he's the future for the club. They need another option.

It's nothing personal against the manager, he has pedigree, and a fairly impressive CV. Just don't reckon he has what it takes to push them to top 8.

I see TM as similar. A safe pair of hands and will keep things steady, but can he mount a promotion push? I don't believe so. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, DE. said:

It really is. Dack has dug Mowbray out of the shit so many times in the past, now he's relying on the likes of Holtby or Rothwell to do the same and I just don't think it's going to happen. Not with anywhere near the same level of consistency anyway. We could be in for a really bad spell over the next few months. 

I dont think Holtby had even been prolific. Rothwell is gone to shit and being honest I dont see Brereton scoring 5 more goals whilst he is here. Its worrying times alright and I dont think it's going to be an enjoyable few months til the end of the season. 

Obviously losing Dack is a blow,but I think its literally after causing Mowbrays brain to explode. We could be tail spinning for weeks while he trys to figure this out. The annoying part is it shouldn't have to be so complicated 

[davulsukur]

Just now, Silas said:

That's the issue for me, we need a long term plan, not a short term fix.

Like with Moyes at WH now. Cracking start for him today, and he'll do all right and steer them to safe waters. But I don't think he's the future for the club. They need another option.

It's nothing personal against the manager, he has pedigree, and a fairly impressive CV. Just don't reckon he has what it takes to push them to top 8.

I see TM as similar. A safe pair of hands and will keep things steady, but can he mount a promotion push? I don't believe so. 

I don't see Mowbray as a safe pair of hands at all.

We are now on one of his classic winless runs that could stretch on for a long time.

Every game is on a knife edge as we could turn up and look the part or look like we just met in the car park 20mins before kick off.

It won't last, give him enough time and he won't be able to pull his usual rabbit out of the hat anymore.