Tony Mowbray Discussion

[rigger]

46 minutes ago, Doogs said:

Just go Tony. Not only are the results poor. But the excitement served up at Ewoodhas  been shocking.

I will be back every game, but enough is enough' please go Tony, even if it is only upstairs. 

[DE.]

Not sure why people think Mowbray would make a good Director of Football. Poor transfer record, comes out with all sorts of nonsense quotes, playing style is horrendous... not sure exactly what he would be directing on. Club Ambassador would be a better role for him, if anything. Chances are when he leaves he'll just be gone though. 

[CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber]

42 minutes ago, DE. said:

Not sure why people think Mowbray would make a good Director of Football. Poor transfer record, comes out with all sorts of nonsense quotes, playing style is horrendous... not sure exactly what he would be directing on. Club Ambassador would be a better role for him, if anything. Chances are when he leaves he'll just be gone though. 

Agreed. I think maybe it's people kidding themselves into thinking it's more likely he'll "leave" if he moves upstairs. We all know deep down he ain't going anywhere. 

[JBiz]

5 hours ago, Silas said:

 

Well, 5 months and over half the season later Harry, where do you stand in regards to these comments?

I'd say we're definately going backwards and as for progression to top 6 - well, we're miles off competing. 

So are you going to be true to your word and hop over to the dark side? C'mon,  it's warm and cosy over here. ?

26 games in and I still couldn’t decide exactly how I feel about our progress.

Theres always more layers - look at today in isolation, controlled and bossed the game, created chance after chance but ultimately chucked it through dodgy defending and missing chances. That’s not been a story of our time under TM, we’ve changed immeasurably since he took over in my opinion, and consistency has been the biggest issue.

I can’t help but think others are so convinced by their own expertise, they’ve completely forgotten what the last decade actually entailed. From wishing we would be swapping places with Bolton, to suggesting the entire club has gone backwards under TM, my reaction is never so severe.

Things could and should be better but nothing is simple in football, regardless of how many times you tell yourself you know better! I’ve never been one for making rash decisions with management, but at the same time - it’s utterly ignorant of history to be so convinced that throwing the ball back in the owners court will end up positively.

Its still the same team ultimately, and whilst I can see others getting more out of us, despite the “ten a penny” better comments, I’d suggest the most likely outcome isn’t positive. That’s just basic utilisation of experience.

[JBiz]

6 hours ago, Stuart said:

It’s the Harry and Mash show again. Defending the indefensible straight after another poor result.

Players are now playing better than they used to; despite us only being able to come up with one player who has (arguably) improved under Mowbray. Travis is playing “better” despite becoming a more negative player - and this is somehow a “positive“. Mowbray is still the best man for the job! We are building for the future!

Meanwhile, the reality is that we lurch from good runs into bad runs based on Mowbray deciding to tinker and we are about to begin a turnover of Mowbray’s own playing staff so he can have another go. This is a scenario not enjoyed by unsuccessful managers anywhere.

His time would be up at any other club with any ambition. A new manager needs to come in now to be able to decide who we keep and who goes during the Summer.

I thought you ignored my comments?

Reality is though, to suggest Travis has gone backwards despite basically turning himself from an u23 to a regular starter is just basic negative bias. If this had come under a new manager, the reaction would be different, confirmation bias of the highest order..

To explain that - consider what other managers and teams knew about Lewis, and what they know now. Then add your own recent experience of combative midfielders in our colours, it’s not hard to see why he may have looked a breath of fresh air when first appearing.

This overriding opinion about how he would’ve been potted elsewhere just shows the arrogance and condescending nature to think your opinion trumps the average fan. It’s become ridiculous, despite the backup from the “I know best crew” on Brfcs!

The gross oversimplification of “how to fix Blackburn rovers” is just another example of how the modern entitled football fan will speak first, and think later!

Thank god you don’t see me as one of you lot.

[47er]

When I wrote that we are "in the shit" I wasn't thinking of right now, our position in the league etc but rather the end of the season. We are clearly weak in several areas, we are reliant on loans which can be terminated and we risk losing some players we'd need---eg Lenihan, Nyambe possibly, Dack when he's fit, Travis, and so on. Several of our players are at the veteran stage too.

Two we can't sell but cost £12M between them! We will never see that again!

So, all in all, after 3 years of supposedly building up a squad I think we are farther way from ever from achieving it.

We face a massive rebuilding job for next season or we throw in the young ones and pray.

Is there anyone left who has the confidence that TM can manage this situation which he has himself created?

That's the whole point for me. Who is going to take us forward and when do we start planning for it?

Who at Ewood is even thinking about it?

 

[Blue blood]

18 minutes ago, Harry The Bass said:

 

This overriding opinion about how he would’ve been potted elsewhere just shows the arrogance and condescending nature to think your opinion trumps the average fan. It’s become ridiculous, despite the backup from the “I know best crew” on Brfcs!

The gross oversimplification of “how to fix Blackburn rovers” is just another example of how the modern entitled football fan will speak first, and think later!

Thank god you don’t see me as one of you lot.

Well actually as TM showed us in our 6 game winning stint it is pretty simple to improve us - play a settled side with the vast majority of players in the correct position. That's not condescending- it's common sense. 

The biggest losing run in modern Rovers history and he retained his place. Zero return on £12 mill of strikers (look at facts, how many goals? More subjective but look at performances from them too.) Look at what other managers have been sacked for and it's for far less than TM. Compare what a lot of championship managers have been sacked for and TM has been very fortunate indeed. 

[JBiz]

Just now, Blue blood said:

Well actually as TM showed us in our 6 game winning stint it is pretty simple to improve us - play a settled side with the vast majority of players in the correct position. That's not condescending- it's common sense. 
Yet when we have injuries it’s “Tony’s Tombola” not a justification for changing the team. Or when we change 5/6 for Bristol and perform brilliantly, it’s ignored.

The biggest losing run in modern Rovers history and he retained his place. Zero return on £12 mill of strikers (look at facts, how many goals? More subjective but look at performances from them too.) Look at what other managers have been sacked for and it's for far less than TM. Compare what a lot of championship managers have been sacked for and TM has been very fortunate indeed. 
 

12m is the problem - our main money has gone on two strikers who as of yet aren't firing. But that doesn’t mean that I assumed every penny of a managers spend will work out - It seldom does. Look at Downing, might be 35 and on a one year but he is as good as a player as we’ve had for some time.

 

[Boroblue]

The number of managers sacked this year 59. The average time in the job of a championship manager less than a year. So by any criteria the angst about Mowbray is not reflex by a bunch of fans who are hysterical. The reality is football management is a today business particularly in the championship. Why because the premiership offers the crock of gold. If we get the next managerial appointment wrong do what everyone else does get another. Short term contracts for a short term project. Promotion or bust. If it doesn’t look like it’s right you have two options change the players or the manager and we all no which is the standard choice. 

Mid table is not an option, long term project not an option. Not for us or any other championship team. Has Mowbray statistically had a chance look at the figures. 

If anything our owners give them to long. All football managers are destined to fail in a short term business. Am I anti Mowbray no I’m pro success, I’m pro short term,I’m pro top three and I don’t care how we get there and with who. I’m anti mid table, anti statis quo and anti gravey tomorrow. 

If tomorrow Mowbray says we will be promoted I’m in. If he says long term project I’m out. Not because I’m radical but I’m like every other supporter. In the words of the film Jerry macquire “ show me the money”

[Blue blood]

You clearly miss the point on both counts Harry. 

Starting with the money. Not every bit of money works out. No, and i'm not expecting that. And Downing was inspired business. But that's a straw man argument isn't it that not every bit of money/signing works out. The vast majority of our budget went into those two players and they've failed miserably. You are ignoring the overwhelming bad use of the majority of our money for reasons I'm unsure about. Yes, there's been the odd good signing and a couple of inspired but most have been poor, especially when spending the big money. This season for example how many have been a raging success? Downing and Tosin - that's a poor return. But I'm drifting into your straw man arguments here - the bulk of our transfer budget went on Gally who has failed, just like with Bereton. 

 

As for your first point yes Bristol worked out well - and if you look back TM was praised highly for it. However how many times does it not work? How many needless changes has there been? How many times has rotation caught us out? How many times have players been in random positions? For every enforced change there seems to have been several unenforced ones. Also if you are saying the players who come in for injuries aren't good enough or we don't have enough cover - whose fault is that. 

Let's be realistic, it can be dressed up and circumstances can be bleated about but many of our issues fall on TM for poor selection and recruitment issues. 

 

[K-Hod]

@Harry The Bass not going to quote your full post as I only want to talk about one part of it.

That comment about people being arrogant for suggesting he’d have been sacked elsewhere for a number of things here, that’s not arrogance, that’s more like common sense.

It’s fortunate for him that he employed his own boss and our owners don’t give a shit.

[Stuart]

1 minute ago, K-Hod said:

@Harry The Bass not going to quote your full post as I only want to talk about one part of it.

That comment about people being arrogant for suggesting he’d have been sacked elsewhere for a number of things here, that’s not arrogance, that’s more like common sense.

It’s fortunate for him that he employed his own boss and our owners don’t give a shit.

That’s a very succinct way of putting it.

Football is a cut-throat business... except at Rovers when Desai thinks a manager is a nice man.

[JBiz]

1 minute ago, Blue blood said:

You clearly miss the point on both counts Harry. 

Starting with the money. Not every bit of money works out. In the perfect scenario that doesn’t exist No, and i'm not expecting that. And Downing was inspired business. But that's a straw man argument (Weve signed good players is strawman? I think best look up that term) isn't it that not every bit of money/signing works out. The vast majority of our budget went into those two players and they've failed miserably. You are ignoring the overwhelming bad use of the majority of our money for reasons I'm unsure about. Yes, there's been the odd good signing and a couple of inspired but most have been poor, especially when spending the big money. This season for example how many have been a raging success? Downing and Tosin - that's a poor return. But I'm drifting into your straw man arguments here - the bulk of our transfer budget went on Gally who has failed, just like with Bereton. 

Both are u23 ffs if you can’t see why there should be patience within the club, you’ve no chance- plus you know as well as I know, 4 starts upfront in two years is a BS example for a young striker but it fits into a complaint so carry on,

As for your first point yes Bristol worked out well - and if you look back TM was praised highly for it. Yea right - just look at the pre match thread. However how many times does it not work? How many needless changes has there been? How many times has rotation caught us out? How many times have players been in random positions? For every enforced change there seems to have been several unenforced ones. Also if you are saying the players who come in for injuries aren't good enough or we don't have enough cover - whose fault is that. Ah I get it, injuries are Tony’s fault!..

Let's be realistic, it can be dressed up and circumstances can be bleated about but many of our issues fall on TM for poor selection and recruitment issues Let’s be realistic, most our fans expectations are ridiculous and ignore competition!. 

 

 

[DE.]

Eh? Gallagher is 24.

[JBiz]

22 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

@Harry The Bass not going to quote your full post as I only want to talk about one part of it.

That comment about people being arrogant for suggesting he’d have been sacked elsewhere for a number of things here, that’s not arrogance, that’s more like common sense.

It’s fortunate for him that he employed his own boss and our owners don’t give a shit.

Only the bit you disagree with as normal yea? But I’m the contrary / devils advocate ...

It’s arrogance. Because it assumes that your knowledge of watching Blackburn rovers extends to assuming how other teams should react.. for instance Preston and Burnley in poor runs.. have their managers been sacked?

No, despite a plethora of their fans claiming it’s time to move on. You’re in the same club! 

 

[K-Hod]

1 minute ago, Harry The Bass said:

Only the bit you disagree with as normal yea? But I’m the contrary / devils advocate ...

It’s arrogance. Because it assumes that your knowledge of watching Blackburn rovers extends to assuming how other teams should react.. for instance Preston and Burnley in poor runs.. have their managers been sacked?

No, despite a plethora of their fans claiming it’s time to move on. You’re in the same club! 

 

Yes lad, you admitted to me in the WMC that you played devil’s advocate yourself! 

You’re muddying the waters again pal and over complicating matters. 

I’m going to bed and I think you should too.

Edited January 4, 2020 by K-Hod

[Blue blood]

Wrong again. Let's go through your comments:

Straw man argument - we signed some good players so it's ok Gally and Bereton didn't work out. Because it's about overall transfer budget. That's like saying I brought a run down house at great expense nowhere worth the price I paid but that's ok because I got a great deal on the washing machine... 

Being under 23 isn't an excuse for them being terrible. Also we brought to try replacing Graham and neither are near that standard. We pay that much money for players who will improve the team. Neither of them are currently and it looks like neither of them will in the immediate future. In Beretons case i"d say ever and their performances back this up. Regardless we don't have masses of funds and we needed to strengthen the squad now - neither has really done that. If you're argument is that they may come good so it's ok to spend that money - my question would be what about the here and now? What about strengthening the team now orthe places  we are weak in? Words fail me if you think Bereton in particular is a good use of £7 million.

Re Bristol game - look at the post march thread. 

Finally the injuries aren't TMs fault (although Lenihens were to be expected after the last few years) but not having adequate cover or quality in is. All teams get injuries yet we seem short on numbers and quality to replace injuries. Dack I grant you is a one off special talent but for the rest - injuries are part and parcel of the game and not being ready for them is TMs fault. But if we're honest if you really think I was saying the injuries were his fault you're not reading posts properly and trying to deflect from the real criticisms because they show TM to be limited. 

[Boroblue]

4 minutes ago, Harry The Bass said:

Only the bit you disagree with as normal yea? But I’m the contrary / devils advocate ...

It’s arrogance. Because it assumes that your knowledge of watching Blackburn rovers extends to assuming how other teams should react.. for instance Preston and Burnley in poor runs.. have their managers been sacked?

No, despite a plethora of their fans claiming it’s time to move on. You’re in the same club! 

 

No has a general principle your wrong teams sack there manager for failure. I’m not discussing Mowbray but the general principle. 59 managers-this year. Average life span in the championship less than a year. Even if you just apply these criteria he’s had ample opportunity. This is not hysteria but normal. However has you say it’s where you set the bar.  For a club with a history of success like ours forgetting  the small town club, cut your cloth we have never been built on mediocrity and the statistics on that don’t lie. Promotion is our goal today not tomorrow. If he can’t deliver it get someone else on a short term contract and if he can’t do it get someone else. 

This is just an opinion to conclude Mowbray was given too long a contract and has forgotten that his job is result orientated.

[47er]

26 minutes ago, Harry The Bass said:

most our fans expectations are ridiculous and ignore competition!. 

But you are uniquely placed to see beyond what we ordinary mortals can see!

Tell me that isn't arrogance.

Tell me you respect other's views!

[Amo]

It's actually mildly amusing watching the mental gymnastics people pull off to justify keeping Mowbray. 

[Wing Wizard Windy Miller]

2 hours ago, 47er said:

When I wrote that we are "in the shit" I wasn't thinking of right now, our position in the league etc but rather the end of the season. We are clearly weak in several areas, we are reliant on loans which can be terminated and we risk losing some players we'd need---eg Lenihan, Nyambe possibly, Dack when he's fit, Travis, and so on. Several of our players are at the veteran stage too.

Two we can't sell but cost £12M between them! We will never see that again!

So, all in all, after 3 years of supposedly building up a squad I think we are farther way from ever from achieving it.

We face a massive rebuilding job for next season or we throw in the young ones and pray.

Is there anyone left who has the confidence that TM can manage this situation which he has himself created?

That's the whole point for me. Who is going to take us forward and when do we start planning for it?

Who at Ewood is even thinking about it?

 

I was going to post something exactly like this.  Thanks for saving me the job. Spot on.

For the first time since venkys arrived,  there was a window of opportunity upon gaining promotion  from league one.  Fans engaged, positivity, venkys apparently on board financially.  IMO the current management (waggott) completely ballsed up the season  ticket pricing.  Then Mowbray ballsed up the transfers.

All momentum/positivity gone. Likely back to free transfers and the family silver being sold next season. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Wing Wizard Windy Miller

[glen9mullan]

Age cant come into it, some of the best players world wide are still boys, half the national team are still young lads.

If you are good enough, you are old enough.

I dont know where this myth comes from RE they are not ready at 19,20,21, 22.

Thats part of TMs problem, he is living in the past 

You only have to look at Man Utd, and yes they are not challenging for honours,

However their side is full of young kids again like the fergie mid 90s era.

We have a premier league, where the likes of Rashford, Greenwood, Alexander Arnold, Gomez, Ali, Saka, Guendozi, Mount etc etc, are playing regular in the top division, in europe, at international level, at big clubs with big expectations  and bigger crowds.

Yes our young players are not up to their level, but they are not shrinking violets either. 

 

[Roverthechimp]

9 hours ago, 47er said:

When I wrote that we are "in the shit" I wasn't thinking of right now, our position in the league etc but rather the end of the season. We are clearly weak in several areas, we are reliant on loans which can be terminated and we risk losing some players we'd need---eg Lenihan, Nyambe possibly, Dack when he's fit, Travis, and so on. Several of our players are at the veteran stage too.

Two we can't sell but cost £12M between them! We will never see that again!

So, all in all, after 3 years of supposedly building up a squad I think we are farther way from ever from achieving it.

We face a massive rebuilding job for next season or we throw in the young ones and pray.

Is there anyone left who has the confidence that TM can manage this situation which he has himself created?

That's the whole point for me. Who is going to take us forward and when do we start planning for it?

Who at Ewood is even thinking about it?

 

Fair points.

My position is somewhat conflicted: do i have more faith in TM than in the people running/owning/advising the club?

Unfortunately the answer is still yes. 

Are there managers out there that could do better - yes.

Do i think our owners would appoint one of them and let them do what is neccesary? No

[Roverthechimp]

8 hours ago, Amo said:

It's actually mildly amusing watching the mental gymnastics people pull off to justify keeping Mowbray. 

Just call me "The Acrobat" ???

[Hasta]

Gallagher looks less mobile and a worse player than he did 3 years ago. I see a Danny Cadamateri player here who was highly touted at a young age but gradually drops to find his level. What worries me is we are so obviously trying to get a return on investment nowadays that we will not play graham just to allow us to include inferior players. Therefore we are not felding our strongest team in order to win games, which is ridiculous.

Now that may well have to be how the club is run nowadays, and I accept that to some level. However the problem has come because the two targets identified as strikers were so poor, and that's TM's fault entirely. Brereton was an unknown, but the majority of people on here had seen Gallagher for a season and could tell you he wasn't good enough (and did before he signed!!) Birmingham fans thought he was awful as well. 

So the club has to ask itself, if the model is to buy young and sell them on for a profit is Mowbray the  right man to do this? Most evidence since we returned to the Championship says no.

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Hasta