Tony Mowbray Discussion

[Blue blood]

18 minutes ago, Harry The Bass said:

 

This overriding opinion about how he would’ve been potted elsewhere just shows the arrogance and condescending nature to think your opinion trumps the average fan. It’s become ridiculous, despite the backup from the “I know best crew” on Brfcs!

The gross oversimplification of “how to fix Blackburn rovers” is just another example of how the modern entitled football fan will speak first, and think later!

Thank god you don’t see me as one of you lot.

Well actually as TM showed us in our 6 game winning stint it is pretty simple to improve us - play a settled side with the vast majority of players in the correct position. That's not condescending- it's common sense. 

The biggest losing run in modern Rovers history and he retained his place. Zero return on £12 mill of strikers (look at facts, how many goals? More subjective but look at performances from them too.) Look at what other managers have been sacked for and it's for far less than TM. Compare what a lot of championship managers have been sacked for and TM has been very fortunate indeed. 

[JBiz]

Just now, Blue blood said:

Well actually as TM showed us in our 6 game winning stint it is pretty simple to improve us - play a settled side with the vast majority of players in the correct position. That's not condescending- it's common sense. 
Yet when we have injuries it’s “Tony’s Tombola” not a justification for changing the team. Or when we change 5/6 for Bristol and perform brilliantly, it’s ignored.

The biggest losing run in modern Rovers history and he retained his place. Zero return on £12 mill of strikers (look at facts, how many goals? More subjective but look at performances from them too.) Look at what other managers have been sacked for and it's for far less than TM. Compare what a lot of championship managers have been sacked for and TM has been very fortunate indeed. 
 

12m is the problem - our main money has gone on two strikers who as of yet aren't firing. But that doesn’t mean that I assumed every penny of a managers spend will work out - It seldom does. Look at Downing, might be 35 and on a one year but he is as good as a player as we’ve had for some time.

 

[Boroblue]

The number of managers sacked this year 59. The average time in the job of a championship manager less than a year. So by any criteria the angst about Mowbray is not reflex by a bunch of fans who are hysterical. The reality is football management is a today business particularly in the championship. Why because the premiership offers the crock of gold. If we get the next managerial appointment wrong do what everyone else does get another. Short term contracts for a short term project. Promotion or bust. If it doesn’t look like it’s right you have two options change the players or the manager and we all no which is the standard choice. 

Mid table is not an option, long term project not an option. Not for us or any other championship team. Has Mowbray statistically had a chance look at the figures. 

If anything our owners give them to long. All football managers are destined to fail in a short term business. Am I anti Mowbray no I’m pro success, I’m pro short term,I’m pro top three and I don’t care how we get there and with who. I’m anti mid table, anti statis quo and anti gravey tomorrow. 

If tomorrow Mowbray says we will be promoted I’m in. If he says long term project I’m out. Not because I’m radical but I’m like every other supporter. In the words of the film Jerry macquire “ show me the money”

[Blue blood]

You clearly miss the point on both counts Harry. 

Starting with the money. Not every bit of money works out. No, and i'm not expecting that. And Downing was inspired business. But that's a straw man argument isn't it that not every bit of money/signing works out. The vast majority of our budget went into those two players and they've failed miserably. You are ignoring the overwhelming bad use of the majority of our money for reasons I'm unsure about. Yes, there's been the odd good signing and a couple of inspired but most have been poor, especially when spending the big money. This season for example how many have been a raging success? Downing and Tosin - that's a poor return. But I'm drifting into your straw man arguments here - the bulk of our transfer budget went on Gally who has failed, just like with Bereton. 

 

As for your first point yes Bristol worked out well - and if you look back TM was praised highly for it. However how many times does it not work? How many needless changes has there been? How many times has rotation caught us out? How many times have players been in random positions? For every enforced change there seems to have been several unenforced ones. Also if you are saying the players who come in for injuries aren't good enough or we don't have enough cover - whose fault is that. 

Let's be realistic, it can be dressed up and circumstances can be bleated about but many of our issues fall on TM for poor selection and recruitment issues. 

 

[K-Hod]

@Harry The Bass not going to quote your full post as I only want to talk about one part of it.

That comment about people being arrogant for suggesting he’d have been sacked elsewhere for a number of things here, that’s not arrogance, that’s more like common sense.

It’s fortunate for him that he employed his own boss and our owners don’t give a shit.

[Stuart]

1 minute ago, K-Hod said:

@Harry The Bass not going to quote your full post as I only want to talk about one part of it.

That comment about people being arrogant for suggesting he’d have been sacked elsewhere for a number of things here, that’s not arrogance, that’s more like common sense.

It’s fortunate for him that he employed his own boss and our owners don’t give a shit.

That’s a very succinct way of putting it.

Football is a cut-throat business... except at Rovers when Desai thinks a manager is a nice man.

[JBiz]

1 minute ago, Blue blood said:

You clearly miss the point on both counts Harry. 

Starting with the money. Not every bit of money works out. In the perfect scenario that doesn’t exist No, and i'm not expecting that. And Downing was inspired business. But that's a straw man argument (Weve signed good players is strawman? I think best look up that term) isn't it that not every bit of money/signing works out. The vast majority of our budget went into those two players and they've failed miserably. You are ignoring the overwhelming bad use of the majority of our money for reasons I'm unsure about. Yes, there's been the odd good signing and a couple of inspired but most have been poor, especially when spending the big money. This season for example how many have been a raging success? Downing and Tosin - that's a poor return. But I'm drifting into your straw man arguments here - the bulk of our transfer budget went on Gally who has failed, just like with Bereton. 

Both are u23 ffs if you can’t see why there should be patience within the club, you’ve no chance- plus you know as well as I know, 4 starts upfront in two years is a BS example for a young striker but it fits into a complaint so carry on,

As for your first point yes Bristol worked out well - and if you look back TM was praised highly for it. Yea right - just look at the pre match thread. However how many times does it not work? How many needless changes has there been? How many times has rotation caught us out? How many times have players been in random positions? For every enforced change there seems to have been several unenforced ones. Also if you are saying the players who come in for injuries aren't good enough or we don't have enough cover - whose fault is that. Ah I get it, injuries are Tony’s fault!..

Let's be realistic, it can be dressed up and circumstances can be bleated about but many of our issues fall on TM for poor selection and recruitment issues Let’s be realistic, most our fans expectations are ridiculous and ignore competition!. 

 

 

[DE.]

Eh? Gallagher is 24.

[JBiz]

22 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

@Harry The Bass not going to quote your full post as I only want to talk about one part of it.

That comment about people being arrogant for suggesting he’d have been sacked elsewhere for a number of things here, that’s not arrogance, that’s more like common sense.

It’s fortunate for him that he employed his own boss and our owners don’t give a shit.

Only the bit you disagree with as normal yea? But I’m the contrary / devils advocate ...

It’s arrogance. Because it assumes that your knowledge of watching Blackburn rovers extends to assuming how other teams should react.. for instance Preston and Burnley in poor runs.. have their managers been sacked?

No, despite a plethora of their fans claiming it’s time to move on. You’re in the same club! 

 

[K-Hod]

1 minute ago, Harry The Bass said:

Only the bit you disagree with as normal yea? But I’m the contrary / devils advocate ...

It’s arrogance. Because it assumes that your knowledge of watching Blackburn rovers extends to assuming how other teams should react.. for instance Preston and Burnley in poor runs.. have their managers been sacked?

No, despite a plethora of their fans claiming it’s time to move on. You’re in the same club! 

 

Yes lad, you admitted to me in the WMC that you played devil’s advocate yourself! 

You’re muddying the waters again pal and over complicating matters. 

I’m going to bed and I think you should too.

Edited January 4, 2020 by K-Hod

[Blue blood]

Wrong again. Let's go through your comments:

Straw man argument - we signed some good players so it's ok Gally and Bereton didn't work out. Because it's about overall transfer budget. That's like saying I brought a run down house at great expense nowhere worth the price I paid but that's ok because I got a great deal on the washing machine... 

Being under 23 isn't an excuse for them being terrible. Also we brought to try replacing Graham and neither are near that standard. We pay that much money for players who will improve the team. Neither of them are currently and it looks like neither of them will in the immediate future. In Beretons case i"d say ever and their performances back this up. Regardless we don't have masses of funds and we needed to strengthen the squad now - neither has really done that. If you're argument is that they may come good so it's ok to spend that money - my question would be what about the here and now? What about strengthening the team now orthe places  we are weak in? Words fail me if you think Bereton in particular is a good use of £7 million.

Re Bristol game - look at the post march thread. 

Finally the injuries aren't TMs fault (although Lenihens were to be expected after the last few years) but not having adequate cover or quality in is. All teams get injuries yet we seem short on numbers and quality to replace injuries. Dack I grant you is a one off special talent but for the rest - injuries are part and parcel of the game and not being ready for them is TMs fault. But if we're honest if you really think I was saying the injuries were his fault you're not reading posts properly and trying to deflect from the real criticisms because they show TM to be limited. 

[Boroblue]

4 minutes ago, Harry The Bass said:

Only the bit you disagree with as normal yea? But I’m the contrary / devils advocate ...

It’s arrogance. Because it assumes that your knowledge of watching Blackburn rovers extends to assuming how other teams should react.. for instance Preston and Burnley in poor runs.. have their managers been sacked?

No, despite a plethora of their fans claiming it’s time to move on. You’re in the same club! 

 

No has a general principle your wrong teams sack there manager for failure. I’m not discussing Mowbray but the general principle. 59 managers-this year. Average life span in the championship less than a year. Even if you just apply these criteria he’s had ample opportunity. This is not hysteria but normal. However has you say it’s where you set the bar.  For a club with a history of success like ours forgetting  the small town club, cut your cloth we have never been built on mediocrity and the statistics on that don’t lie. Promotion is our goal today not tomorrow. If he can’t deliver it get someone else on a short term contract and if he can’t do it get someone else. 

This is just an opinion to conclude Mowbray was given too long a contract and has forgotten that his job is result orientated.

[47er]

26 minutes ago, Harry The Bass said:

most our fans expectations are ridiculous and ignore competition!. 

But you are uniquely placed to see beyond what we ordinary mortals can see!

Tell me that isn't arrogance.

Tell me you respect other's views!

[Amo]

It's actually mildly amusing watching the mental gymnastics people pull off to justify keeping Mowbray. 

[Wing Wizard Windy Miller]

2 hours ago, 47er said:

When I wrote that we are "in the shit" I wasn't thinking of right now, our position in the league etc but rather the end of the season. We are clearly weak in several areas, we are reliant on loans which can be terminated and we risk losing some players we'd need---eg Lenihan, Nyambe possibly, Dack when he's fit, Travis, and so on. Several of our players are at the veteran stage too.

Two we can't sell but cost £12M between them! We will never see that again!

So, all in all, after 3 years of supposedly building up a squad I think we are farther way from ever from achieving it.

We face a massive rebuilding job for next season or we throw in the young ones and pray.

Is there anyone left who has the confidence that TM can manage this situation which he has himself created?

That's the whole point for me. Who is going to take us forward and when do we start planning for it?

Who at Ewood is even thinking about it?

 

I was going to post something exactly like this.  Thanks for saving me the job. Spot on.

For the first time since venkys arrived,  there was a window of opportunity upon gaining promotion  from league one.  Fans engaged, positivity, venkys apparently on board financially.  IMO the current management (waggott) completely ballsed up the season  ticket pricing.  Then Mowbray ballsed up the transfers.

All momentum/positivity gone. Likely back to free transfers and the family silver being sold next season. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Wing Wizard Windy Miller

[glen9mullan]

Age cant come into it, some of the best players world wide are still boys, half the national team are still young lads.

If you are good enough, you are old enough.

I dont know where this myth comes from RE they are not ready at 19,20,21, 22.

Thats part of TMs problem, he is living in the past 

You only have to look at Man Utd, and yes they are not challenging for honours,

However their side is full of young kids again like the fergie mid 90s era.

We have a premier league, where the likes of Rashford, Greenwood, Alexander Arnold, Gomez, Ali, Saka, Guendozi, Mount etc etc, are playing regular in the top division, in europe, at international level, at big clubs with big expectations  and bigger crowds.

Yes our young players are not up to their level, but they are not shrinking violets either. 

 

[Roverthechimp]

9 hours ago, 47er said:

When I wrote that we are "in the shit" I wasn't thinking of right now, our position in the league etc but rather the end of the season. We are clearly weak in several areas, we are reliant on loans which can be terminated and we risk losing some players we'd need---eg Lenihan, Nyambe possibly, Dack when he's fit, Travis, and so on. Several of our players are at the veteran stage too.

Two we can't sell but cost £12M between them! We will never see that again!

So, all in all, after 3 years of supposedly building up a squad I think we are farther way from ever from achieving it.

We face a massive rebuilding job for next season or we throw in the young ones and pray.

Is there anyone left who has the confidence that TM can manage this situation which he has himself created?

That's the whole point for me. Who is going to take us forward and when do we start planning for it?

Who at Ewood is even thinking about it?

 

Fair points.

My position is somewhat conflicted: do i have more faith in TM than in the people running/owning/advising the club?

Unfortunately the answer is still yes. 

Are there managers out there that could do better - yes.

Do i think our owners would appoint one of them and let them do what is neccesary? No

[Roverthechimp]

8 hours ago, Amo said:

It's actually mildly amusing watching the mental gymnastics people pull off to justify keeping Mowbray. 

Just call me "The Acrobat" ???

[Hasta]

Gallagher looks less mobile and a worse player than he did 3 years ago. I see a Danny Cadamateri player here who was highly touted at a young age but gradually drops to find his level. What worries me is we are so obviously trying to get a return on investment nowadays that we will not play graham just to allow us to include inferior players. Therefore we are not felding our strongest team in order to win games, which is ridiculous.

Now that may well have to be how the club is run nowadays, and I accept that to some level. However the problem has come because the two targets identified as strikers were so poor, and that's TM's fault entirely. Brereton was an unknown, but the majority of people on here had seen Gallagher for a season and could tell you he wasn't good enough (and did before he signed!!) Birmingham fans thought he was awful as well. 

So the club has to ask itself, if the model is to buy young and sell them on for a profit is Mowbray the  right man to do this? Most evidence since we returned to the Championship says no.

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Hasta

[47er]

4 minutes ago, Roverthechimp said:

Fair points.

My position is somewhat conflicted: do i have more faith in TM than in the people running/owning/advising the club?

Unfortunately the answer is still yes. 

Are there managers out there that could do better - yes.

Do i think our owners would appoint one of them and let them do what is neccesary? No

Your's is fair point too and probably all of us fear what sort of blunder Venkys could make with next appointment------ but we can't go on like this.

I suspect Johnno is in the owners sights and that's why he was promoted--to give him experience in a first team setting.

That too is a risk in that he's never been a manager before but its a risk I could live with. He's not a chancer like Coyle or Kean, he's been around Ewood a long time, on and off, so I think he would genuinely have the club's interests at heart.

I'm not ruling out an outside appointment and posters have suggested several good choices, however Venkys usually let us down in this area.

Conflicted or not we won't succeed under Mowbray, he's had his chance and blown it.

Alternatively since we will never prosper under Venkys anyway........

[Stuart]

49 minutes ago, Roverthechimp said:

Fair points.

My position is somewhat conflicted: do i have more faith in TM than in the people running/owning/advising the club?

Unfortunately the answer is still yes. 

Are there managers out there that could do better - yes.

Do i think our owners would appoint one of them and let them do what is neccesary? No

They are letting Mowbray do what he thinks in necessary so why not someone with a credible plan for promotion. If we take your post at face value, you’ve just suggested that Mowbray is a puppet. I.e. that he is only here because he does what they want instead of what is necessary and somehow he is the only option because they will only employ worse.

How is that any kind of positive argument?

If this is where we have ended up: that Rovers fans are happy, or at least accepting of this situation, then we may as well give up now.

On the above basis, we are in no different a position than when Kean was in charge and the only reason there aren’t protests is that Mowbray is a nice guy and doesn’t have links to certain agents.

[Roverthechimp]

11 minutes ago, Stuart said:

They are letting Mowbray do what he thinks in necessary so why not someone with a credible plan for promotion. If we take your post at face value, you’ve just suggested that Mowbray is a puppet. I.e. that he is only here because he does what they want instead of what is necessary and somehow he is the only option because they will only employ worse.

How is that any kind of positive argument?

If this is where we have ended up: that Rovers fans are happy, or at least accepting of this situation, then we may as well give up now.

On the above basis, we are in no different a position than when Kean was in charge and the only reason there aren’t protests is that Mowbray is a nice guy and doesn’t have links to certain agents.

Ok put it like this:

Do you have faith that our owners would choose the best candidate for the job out of those that applied?

[Stuart]

6 minutes ago, Roverthechimp said:

Ok put it like this:

Do you have faith that our owners would choose the best candidate for the job out of those that applied?

Not really a straight forward question, and it’s different from the question on the table. What do we mean by “best”.

Highest calibre would be the most expensive so would depend on wage demands.

Do we need “the best”? Probably not, just better than Mowbray.

Would Farke or Wagner have been flagged as “best” in a candidate sift, first time round? Maybe they even applied.

Faith? I don’t have faith in Venkys, no. But I do t have faith in Mowbray at this point. We should be able to have faith that Waggott would select the right candidate (or best, if you like) to make Blackburn Rovers - and by extension him - successful. If we can’t have that faith then we are back to the days of self-preservation of some of the previous incumbents.

Hope about hope? I would hope that the previous experience of employing the cheapest (Coyle) and being relegated would focus their minds. Certainly it could be argued that until ‘someone’ employed Coyle that management recruitment had been improving and more sensible choices were being made.

How about you? 

Do you have faith that Mowbray would choose the best players to improve the first team and make us play-off candidates (let alone promotion candidates)? If so, based on what?

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

1 hour ago, Hasta said:

Gallagher looks less mobile and a worse player than he did 3 years ago. I see a Danny Cadamateri player here who was highly touted at a young age but gradually drops to find his level. What worries me is we are so obviously trying to get a return on investment nowadays that we will not play graham just to allow us to include inferior players. Therefore we are not felding our strongest team in order to win games, which is ridiculous.

Now that may well have to be how the club is run nowadays, and I accept that to some level. However the problem has come because the two targets identified as strikers were so poor, and that's TM's fault entirely. Brereton was an unknown, but the majority of people on here had seen Gallagher for a season and could tell you he wasn't good enough (and did before he signed!!) Birmingham fans thought he was awful as well. 

So the club has to ask itself, if the model is to buy young and sell them on for a profit is Mowbray the  right man to do this? Most evidence since we returned to the Championship says no.

 

The alarm bells were ringing for me regarding the Gallagher signing when I had a look at what he'd done since leaving Ewood. It doesn't amount to much at all. I said at the time there must be better players out there for £5 million. The best we could expect from him in the future is to turn him into a Kevin Davies at Bolton style striker. One who doesn't score a lot of goals himself but creates chaos that other players can take advantage of. I can't see that happening under the current management team.

[Roverthechimp]

44 minutes ago, Stuart said:

We should be able to have faith that Waggott would select the right candidate (or best, if you like) to make Blackburn Rovers - and by extension him - successful. If we can’t have that faith then we are back to the days of self-preservation of some of the previous incumbents.

Certainly it could be argued that until ‘someone’ employed Coyle that management recruitment had been improving and more sensible choices were being made.

How about you? 

(Sorry to chop bits but thought it easier to see my position:

I agree that we should be able to trust Waggot/board to appoint a good/best candidate but i don't. Precious behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour. I hope i am wrong.

Disagree that management choices were improving - Bowyer wasn't exactly recruited whilst Lambert walked away after a few months. Berg and Appleton ?

I am dissappointed in TM regarding motivation against poor teams, recurring mistakes in defence and our inability to grind out results on off days.

I believe his recruitment is could be better but is compromised by internal politics. That said i question his handling of the Bauer and Raya situations.

Sorry missed a point: i think TM is capable of recruiting players capable of reaching playoffs. He is far from alone in that.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Roverthechimp