Tony Mowbray Discussion

[47er]

4 minutes ago, Roverthechimp said:

Fair points.

My position is somewhat conflicted: do i have more faith in TM than in the people running/owning/advising the club?

Unfortunately the answer is still yes. 

Are there managers out there that could do better - yes.

Do i think our owners would appoint one of them and let them do what is neccesary? No

Your's is fair point too and probably all of us fear what sort of blunder Venkys could make with next appointment------ but we can't go on like this.

I suspect Johnno is in the owners sights and that's why he was promoted--to give him experience in a first team setting.

That too is a risk in that he's never been a manager before but its a risk I could live with. He's not a chancer like Coyle or Kean, he's been around Ewood a long time, on and off, so I think he would genuinely have the club's interests at heart.

I'm not ruling out an outside appointment and posters have suggested several good choices, however Venkys usually let us down in this area.

Conflicted or not we won't succeed under Mowbray, he's had his chance and blown it.

Alternatively since we will never prosper under Venkys anyway........

[Stuart]

49 minutes ago, Roverthechimp said:

Fair points.

My position is somewhat conflicted: do i have more faith in TM than in the people running/owning/advising the club?

Unfortunately the answer is still yes. 

Are there managers out there that could do better - yes.

Do i think our owners would appoint one of them and let them do what is neccesary? No

They are letting Mowbray do what he thinks in necessary so why not someone with a credible plan for promotion. If we take your post at face value, you’ve just suggested that Mowbray is a puppet. I.e. that he is only here because he does what they want instead of what is necessary and somehow he is the only option because they will only employ worse.

How is that any kind of positive argument?

If this is where we have ended up: that Rovers fans are happy, or at least accepting of this situation, then we may as well give up now.

On the above basis, we are in no different a position than when Kean was in charge and the only reason there aren’t protests is that Mowbray is a nice guy and doesn’t have links to certain agents.

[Roverthechimp]

11 minutes ago, Stuart said:

They are letting Mowbray do what he thinks in necessary so why not someone with a credible plan for promotion. If we take your post at face value, you’ve just suggested that Mowbray is a puppet. I.e. that he is only here because he does what they want instead of what is necessary and somehow he is the only option because they will only employ worse.

How is that any kind of positive argument?

If this is where we have ended up: that Rovers fans are happy, or at least accepting of this situation, then we may as well give up now.

On the above basis, we are in no different a position than when Kean was in charge and the only reason there aren’t protests is that Mowbray is a nice guy and doesn’t have links to certain agents.

Ok put it like this:

Do you have faith that our owners would choose the best candidate for the job out of those that applied?

[Stuart]

6 minutes ago, Roverthechimp said:

Ok put it like this:

Do you have faith that our owners would choose the best candidate for the job out of those that applied?

Not really a straight forward question, and it’s different from the question on the table. What do we mean by “best”.

Highest calibre would be the most expensive so would depend on wage demands.

Do we need “the best”? Probably not, just better than Mowbray.

Would Farke or Wagner have been flagged as “best” in a candidate sift, first time round? Maybe they even applied.

Faith? I don’t have faith in Venkys, no. But I do t have faith in Mowbray at this point. We should be able to have faith that Waggott would select the right candidate (or best, if you like) to make Blackburn Rovers - and by extension him - successful. If we can’t have that faith then we are back to the days of self-preservation of some of the previous incumbents.

Hope about hope? I would hope that the previous experience of employing the cheapest (Coyle) and being relegated would focus their minds. Certainly it could be argued that until ‘someone’ employed Coyle that management recruitment had been improving and more sensible choices were being made.

How about you? 

Do you have faith that Mowbray would choose the best players to improve the first team and make us play-off candidates (let alone promotion candidates)? If so, based on what?

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

1 hour ago, Hasta said:

Gallagher looks less mobile and a worse player than he did 3 years ago. I see a Danny Cadamateri player here who was highly touted at a young age but gradually drops to find his level. What worries me is we are so obviously trying to get a return on investment nowadays that we will not play graham just to allow us to include inferior players. Therefore we are not felding our strongest team in order to win games, which is ridiculous.

Now that may well have to be how the club is run nowadays, and I accept that to some level. However the problem has come because the two targets identified as strikers were so poor, and that's TM's fault entirely. Brereton was an unknown, but the majority of people on here had seen Gallagher for a season and could tell you he wasn't good enough (and did before he signed!!) Birmingham fans thought he was awful as well. 

So the club has to ask itself, if the model is to buy young and sell them on for a profit is Mowbray the  right man to do this? Most evidence since we returned to the Championship says no.

 

The alarm bells were ringing for me regarding the Gallagher signing when I had a look at what he'd done since leaving Ewood. It doesn't amount to much at all. I said at the time there must be better players out there for £5 million. The best we could expect from him in the future is to turn him into a Kevin Davies at Bolton style striker. One who doesn't score a lot of goals himself but creates chaos that other players can take advantage of. I can't see that happening under the current management team.

[Roverthechimp]

44 minutes ago, Stuart said:

We should be able to have faith that Waggott would select the right candidate (or best, if you like) to make Blackburn Rovers - and by extension him - successful. If we can’t have that faith then we are back to the days of self-preservation of some of the previous incumbents.

Certainly it could be argued that until ‘someone’ employed Coyle that management recruitment had been improving and more sensible choices were being made.

How about you? 

(Sorry to chop bits but thought it easier to see my position:

I agree that we should be able to trust Waggot/board to appoint a good/best candidate but i don't. Precious behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour. I hope i am wrong.

Disagree that management choices were improving - Bowyer wasn't exactly recruited whilst Lambert walked away after a few months. Berg and Appleton ?

I am dissappointed in TM regarding motivation against poor teams, recurring mistakes in defence and our inability to grind out results on off days.

I believe his recruitment is could be better but is compromised by internal politics. That said i question his handling of the Bauer and Raya situations.

Sorry missed a point: i think TM is capable of recruiting players capable of reaching playoffs. He is far from alone in that.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Roverthechimp

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

48 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Not really a straight forward question, and it’s different from the question on the table. What do we mean by “best”.

Highest calibre would be the most expensive so would depend on wage demands.

Do we need “the best”? Probably not, just better than Mowbray.

Would Farke or Wagner have been flagged as “best” in a candidate sift, first time round? Maybe they even applied.

Faith? I don’t have faith in Venkys, no. But I do t have faith in Mowbray at this point. We should be able to have faith that Waggott would select the right candidate (or best, if you like) to make Blackburn Rovers - and by extension him - successful. If we can’t have that faith then we are back to the days of self-preservation of some of the previous incumbents.

Hope about hope? I would hope that the previous experience of employing the cheapest (Coyle) and being relegated would focus their minds. Certainly it could be argued that until ‘someone’ employed Coyle that management recruitment had been improving and more sensible choices were being made.

How about you? 

Do you have faith that Mowbray would choose the best players to improve the first team and make us play-off candidates (let alone promotion candidates)? If so, based on what?

To put it more simply - Do you have faith that Mowbray can even keep us in this division in the medium term ? Hand on heart I haven't. 

[HowieFive0]

4 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

The alarm bells were ringing for me regarding the Gallagher signing when I had a look at what he'd done since leaving Ewood. It doesn't amount to much at all. I said at the time there must be better players out there for £5 million. The best we could expect from him in the future is to turn him into a Kevin Davies at Bolton style striker. One who doesn't score a lot of goals himself but creates chaos that other players can take advantage of. I can't see that happening under the current management team.

To be honest TS after watching him this season and especially yesterdays game I think hes already that type of player. The lad whatever people think about him does give 100 percent i'll give him that ..the chaos unfortunately comes about because he's not brilliant on the ball. Opposition do get thrown by this but unfortunately we don't have that instinctive goal poacher on his shoulder to nip in and tuck away the loose balls that do come about. The silly episode in the first half highlighted it ..Gallagher does the hard work then we contrive to somehow between three players balls it up from three yards out! Brum found him a handful yesterday and didn't cope well  at all and on another we d have probably (more so should have !) scored 3-4.

Again cant knock his work rate and putting himself about  but we lack that  striker to take advantage.

[Stuart]

5 minutes ago, Roverthechimp said:

(Sorry to chop bits but thought it easier to see my position:

I agree that we should be able to trust Waggot/board to appoint a good/best candidate but i don't. Precious behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour. I hope i am wrong.

Disagree that management choices were improving - Bowyer wasn't exactly recruited whilst Lambert walked away after a few months. Berg and Appleton ?

I am dissappointed in TM regarding motivation against poor teams, recurring mistakes in defence and our inability to grind out results on off days.

I believe his recruitment is could be better but is compromised by internal politics. That said i question his handling of the Bauer and Raya situations.

Sorry missed a point: i think TM is capable of recruiting players capable of reaching playoffs. He is far from alone in that.

We will have to agree to disagree.

Internal politics? Imagine if he had to put up with what Berg had to!! He is not a victim of internal recruitment politics in my view - unless you have some insider information...

Lambert walked away because he felt lied to having sold our talismanic striker for big money and got none back. In the short time he was here he brought in Bennett and Graham. Players Mowbray still needs/uses now - one as captain!

[Roverthechimp]

Just now, Stuart said:

We will have to agree to disagree.

Internal politics? Imagine if he had to put up with what Berg had to!! He is not a victim of internal recruitment politics in my view - unless you have some insider information...

Lambert walked away because he felt lied to having sold our talismanic striker for big money and got none back. In the short time he was here he brought in Bennett and Graham. Players Mowbray still needs/uses now - one as captain!

Quite - opinions can differ ?

[Roverthechimp]

7 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

To put it more simply - Do you have faith that Mowbray can even keep us in this division in the medium term ? Hand on heart I haven't. 

Suspect the question is in part to me. Yes i think TM will do exactly that - keep us in this division. Somewhere between places 12-20 to be more specific

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

2 minutes ago, HowieFive0 said:

To be honest TS after watching him this season and especially yesterdays game I think hes already that type of player. The lad whatever people think about him does give 100 percent i'll give him that ..the chaos unfortunately comes about because he's not brilliant on the ball. Opposition do get thrown by this but unfortunately we don't have that instinctive goal poacher on his shoulder to nip in and tuck away the loose balls that do come about. The silly episode in the first half highlighted it ..Gallagher does the hard work then we contrive to somehow between three players balls it up from three yards out! Brum found him a handful yesterday and didn't cope well  at all and on another we d have probably (more so should have !) scored 3-4.

Again cant knock his work rate and putting himself about  but we lack that  striker to take advantage.

I watched Bolton a bit then. When Big Sam had Okocha and Djorkaeff playing up with Davies and Nolan running beyond Davies in a sort poor mans Frank Lampard role. It was a very effective system that lots of teams found it hard to play against. The usual suspects on here slated Bolton's style of play then but they weren't as one dimensional as people made out. We've just lost our " Okocha " in Dack, we haven't got a Djorkaeff and our central midfield players rarely get beyond the strikers.If we had maybe Gallagher could do a job for us.

[Mashed Potatoes]

3 hours ago, Stuart said:

Not really a straight forward question, and it’s different from the question on the table. What do we mean by “best”.

Highest calibre would be the most expensive so would depend on wage demands.

Do we need “the best”? Probably not, just better than Mowbray.

Would Farke or Wagner have been flagged as “best” in a candidate sift, first time round? Maybe they even applied.

Faith? I don’t have faith in Venkys, no. But I do t have faith in Mowbray at this point. We should be able to have faith that Waggott would select the right candidate (or best, if you like) to make Blackburn Rovers - and by extension him - successful. If we can’t have that faith then we are back to the days of self-preservation of some of the previous incumbents.

Hope about hope? I would hope that the previous experience of employing the cheapest (Coyle) and being relegated would focus their minds. Certainly it could be argued that until ‘someone’ employed Coyle that management recruitment had been improving and more sensible choices were being made.

How about you? 

Do you have faith that Mowbray would choose the best players to improve the first team and make us play-off candidates (let alone promotion candidates)? If so, based on what?

Like you very few would have faith in Venky's to get this sort of decision right. But for me that worry is compounded by 2 things. Firstly their reputation in the game is so toxic that anyone good enough to have a choice about which club they go to is going to be very wary of signing up with us; the manager that they recruited with the highest standing in the game was Lambert and he would only come here if he had a release clause in his contract so he could get out if his nightmares came true. Secondly the financial numbers reported last week point to significant potential FFP restrictions ahead which must deter the better sort of manager.

[Scotland1]

Some of you posters are famous https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/all-familiar-blackburn-rovers-fans-17514436?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

[Mattyblue]

What I often read on social media is that Mowbray has ‘united the fans with the club’, ‘transformed the club’ and so on.

Perhaps in a season when we charged to promotion in a piss poor league it felt like that. Winning game after game does wonders for morale of any football fan and club. 

We’ve since comfortably slotted back into being the mediocre Championship outfit we’ve largely been since 2012 and whilst that certainly hasn’t led to the toxic Ewood atmosphere we saw under Coyle, it isn’t exactly bouncing.

For me, pre the run of decent results between Mid November and Mid December (and we will soon see again as we slip into mid table obscurity), the club just feels stagnant like in the late Bowyer era... some transformation.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Mattyblue

[Ossydave]

29 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

 

We’ve since comfortably slotted back into being the mediocre Championship outfit we’ve largely been since 2012 and whilst that certainly hasn’t led to the toxic Ewood atmosphere we saw under Coyle, it isn’t exactly bouncing.

The atmosphere could well turn pretty toxic on Saturday if we get dicked again. The Mowbray in vs Mowbray out divide has been causing rows amongst the fans the last few games I've been to, petty handbags really but it's not great when our fans are like that. Theres certainly none of the 'togetherness' like there was at grounds up and down the country in league one, I guess it's easier when you're winning most weeks though!

[Stuart]

7 hours ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

Like you very few would have faith in Venky's to get this sort of decision right. But for me that worry is compounded by 2 things. Firstly their reputation in the game is so toxic that anyone good enough to have a choice about which club they go to is going to be very wary of signing up with us; the manager that they recruited with the highest standing in the game was Lambert and he would only come here if he had a release clause in his contract so he could get out if his nightmares came true. Secondly the financial numbers reported last week point to significant potential FFP restrictions ahead which must deter the better sort of manager.

And yet Mowbray is enjoying privileges afforded to nobody else in the game and we turned down a keen Neil Warnock last time out.

You seem to be very keen to make sure nothing happens to Mowbray. Do you directly benefit?

[JPTSwindon]

It is a shame we missed out on Danny Cowley, he has turned Huddersfield around.

[bazza]

There must be managers out there in the world that are as capable as Klopp, Espirito Santo, and even another Bielsa. Rovers problem is the ownership and structure of the club would be useless in finding such people.

Of course we could take a gamble on Robinson, Ainsworth or (Damien) Johnson. That would be a real gamble and we could very well lose the bet.

Over the past 18 months I cannot see the progression I expected to see under Mowbray. The whole training personnel needs a complete overhaul IMO.

By the way, I think Barnsley have appointed the right guy, Struber, and I think they will avoid relegation.

[Mashed Potatoes]

32 minutes ago, JPTSwindon said:

It is a shame we missed out on Danny Cowley, he has turned Huddersfield around.

Didn't they lose to Stoke at home 5-2 last time ?

[chaddyrovers]

34 minutes ago, JPTSwindon said:

It is a shame we missed out on Danny Cowley, he has turned Huddersfield around.

Crowley's record is 21 games. Won 7, draw 6, lost 8

[chaddyrovers]

5 minutes ago, bazza said:

There must be managers out there in the world that are as capable as Klopp, Espirito Santo, and even another Bielsa. Rovers problem is the ownership and structure of the club would be useless in finding such people.

Of course we could take a gamble on Robinson, Ainsworth or (Damien) Johnson. That would be a real gamble and we could very well lose the bet.

Over the past 18 months I cannot see the progression I expected to see under Mowbray. The whole training personnel needs a complete overhaul IMO.

By the way, I think Barnsley have appointed the right guy, Struber, and I think they will avoid relegation.

Did you the video of how training is done and the advanced training methods we are using? Like Damien Johnson role within the setup. 

Rovers don't pay big wages for manager. 

We are a town club not a big city club like a Wolves or Leeds. 

[Norbert Rassragr]

And Cowley's form isn't bad compared to the form of the previous year or so. Huddesfield and Stoke looked absolutely dead and buried before they changed their managers, now they're at least making a fight of it. 

I know you can't rely on the owners to find their bums with both hands, but under Mowbray things have stalled, and if a couple of our better players are sold I wouldn't trust him to replace them adequately. Then relegation would be much closer if that happened as we get the next Chris and Wes Brown in for 'experience'.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Norbert Rassragr

[chaddyrovers]

2 minutes ago, Norbert Rassragr said:

And Cowley's form isn't bad compared to the form of the previous year or so. Huddesfield and Stoke looked absolutely dead and buried before they changed their managers, now they're at least making a fight of it. 

I know you can't rely on the owners to find their bums with both hands, but under Mowbray things have stalled, and if a couple of our better players are sold I wouldn't trust him to replace them adequately. Then relegation would be much closer if that happened as we get the next Chris and Wes Brown in for 'experience'.

That is very true. He has improved the club but he got a big rebuilding job in summer there 

[bazza]

1 minute ago, chaddyrovers said:

Did you the video of how training is done and the advanced training methods we are using? Like Damien Johnson role within the setup. 

We are a town club not a big city club like a Wolves or Leeds. 

Judging by week after week displays over 18 months, these advanced training methods don't seem to be helping us. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Wolves are a town club like Preston and us. They struggled until they made sensible changes and look at them now.We need to do the same but I won't hold my breath.