Tony Mowbray Discussion

[roversfan99]

2 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

"There's a lot of revisionism?" That's some savage hyperbole right there. 

Not really. People are justifying it by giving potential and in some cases hypothetical reasons why we didnt sign players, but the main point is that we went in the window aiming to bring in reinforcements which didnt materialise. Ergo, black and white, it was a failure in terms of our objectives and the manager even admitted his disapointment. For some reason, people feel the need to defend it and justify it as if its a character assassination or an overall judgement of Mowbray, its not, just as an individual judgement, it is a valid assertion to say the window was a failure.

[Mashed Potatoes]

1 minute ago, roversfan99 said:

Not really. People are justifying it by giving potential and in some cases hypothetical reasons why we didnt sign players, but the main point is that we went in the window aiming to bring in reinforcements which didnt materialise. Ergo, black and white, it was a failure in terms of our objectives and the manager even admitted his disapointment. For some reason, people feel the need to defend it and justify it as if its a character assassination or an overall judgement of Mowbray, its not, just as an individual judgement, it is a valid assertion to say the window was a failure.

It's not  "failure" if the right players aren't there at the right prices. It's a question of exercising judgement - it would have been failure if we had brought the wrong players in.

[chaddyrovers]

49 minutes ago, JHRover said:

What sort of manager turns down the option of funds to strengthen his squad? Can you imagine Mark Hughes telling the Abu Dhabi group that he didn't want their cash because it might break the wage structure or upset one or two around the place.

A manager works with resources available to him. If it is correct that Venkys have offered money but he has elected not to spend it then that is a very unusual thing to happen.

Imagine if we get to the end of the season and finish 1 point off the top six. Normal owners would be asking why the manager refused or failed to strengthen in January with promotion obviously achievable.

Mowbray must have a very relaxed view about things if he thinks he or we have all the time to turn down transfer cash when in need of more depth.

If the right players/targets aren't available then we take a risk on a player we haven't scouted properly. Well maybe it doesn't matter but keeping team morale high is a good thing. Look at what happened when we high earners not pulling their weight like Murphy, Best, Etuhu. 

Just imagine that we finish in playoffs cos we keep the team morale together and not over spend on targets we didn't want or too high price

41 minutes ago, JHRover said:

 

You have your budget, identify attainable players and work on those. You have a plan b, c and d if a doesn't work. Everyone else manages it.

2 years running now we've been told there's plenty of money yet it doesn't materialise, except in odd cases like Brereton.

If a deal was unaffordable e.g. Assombalonga then why bother trying?

Personally I suspect it is just arse covering when the fans question what is happening. Don't think India would be too impressed if Mowbray and Waggott pointed responsibility at their front door. Much easier and more sensible to keep in their good books.

 

Very easy for a fans to say this. As Mowbray has said we wont sign players we haven't scouted properly. If those players we want aren't available or price too high then we are right to walk away. 

32 minutes ago, DE. said:

We're talking about two different things here though. I'm directly refuting the suggestion that funds are being withheld from TM as it doesn't tally up with anything he's said in the past. What you're talking about is his decision to spend the potential extra money available which is a different topic. 

Funds aren't being withheld tho. Mowbray has a budget to work with. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

8 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Not really. People are justifying it by giving potential and in some cases hypothetical reasons why we didnt sign players, but the main point is that we went in the window aiming to bring in reinforcements which didnt materialise. Ergo, black and white, it was a failure in terms of our objectives and the manager even admitted his disapointment. For some reason, people feel the need to defend it and justify it as if its a character assassination or an overall judgement of Mowbray, its not, just as an individual judgement, it is a valid assertion to say the window was a failure.

I really haven't noticed anyone making that argument. I think everyone would have liked us to make a signing. Saying we were priced out of moves for some players is hardly hypothetical, it's the market. I know you know it's not that easy to sign players. 

How and ever, "transfer window failure" aside. What a season, eh?  Must be wildly exceeding your expectations? 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Bigdoggsteel

[Husky]

16 hours ago, 47er said:

Absolutely. We all criticise whatever PM is in power from time to time and sometimes say they're useless and somebody else should take over.

 

We've also questioned whether there's a puppetmaster at Rovers pulling all the strings.

 

[chaddyrovers]

37 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Theres a lot of revisionism about the transfer window, it was a failure. Mowbray wanted signings and had a small but tangible transfer budget as well as the option to request more, apparently. He failed to get signings. Its not even necessarily critical to accept that, Mowbray himself admitted dissapointment. 

I am sure that other players were available even if our initial targets were unobtainable and indeed there is no need to create specific reasons and excuses as if it was all part of the plan to end up with no one.

We wouldnt sign players that we haven't done the proper scouting with. I'm sure Agents were offering us players all window but we don't sign players that way like the past. 

3 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

It's not  "failure" if the right players aren't there at the right prices. It's a question of exercising judgement - it would have been failure if we had brought the wrong players in.

exactly. No point over paying for players. 

[DE.]

5 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Funds aren't being withheld tho. Mowbray has a budget to work with. 

Which means you agreed with my original point!

[roversfan99]

37 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I really haven't noticed anyone making that argument. I think everyone would have liked us to make a signing. Saying we were priced out of moves for some players is hardly hypothetical, it's the market. I know you know it's not that easy to sign players. 

How and ever, "transfer window failure" aside. What a season, eh?  Must be wildly exceeding your expectations? 

I dont understand that last paragraph, its relevance or its meaning if I am honest. It seems sarcastic but I am unsure of what exactly you are saying so apologies if not. I was judging an individual thing ie the transfer window against the objectives at the start (to improve the squad) and the failure to do so. The manager himself admitted his dissapointment. Amidst undoubtedly various hurdles to overcome, he was unable to locate signings within his budget as aimed to improve the team. It was a difficult task to improve us with limited funds having spent most of our budget in the summer, but there was still scope and the targets he scouted seemingly were not realistic. There is absolutely no need to extrapolate that opinion, which in my opinion is pretty black and white in terms of meeting objectives, to make an overall conclusion about the manager or our overall progress. 

I gave my opinion on the season to date recently but because I have scrutined the transfer window, it seems to be assumed that I am casting the managers future into doubt, hence the need for a constant staunch defence or deflection by numerous posters over issues I feel are worth scrutiny.

The aim was top 6,  I felt this was a fairly unlikely objective but one he has set for the team. I still dont think we will get into the top 6 and we have yet to even make it temporarily which would boost my confidence in regards to possibly sneaking in at the end of the season.

I have seen progress made in the implentation of a new style, of the development of certain players especially Nyambe, Lenihan Travis and Armstrong and most importantly in terms of points accumulation compared to last season. Phasing out players Mowbray trusts but are no longer good enough has been a somewhat slow process but again we are in a much better position now with Bennett seemingly the final player under that bracket now only a squad player. The money spent on fees in the summer has yielded an even poorer return than I expected and been more of a hindrance than a help. Another key signing has also in my opinion disapointed more often than not in Johnson. 2 further signings I was particularly excited about have been amongst the unfortunate injuries, whilst 2 shorter term signings have massively exceeded my expectations and have been critical in our style change. Walton has pretty much been as expected, a fair few errors but overall I would say average. There are also mitigating circumstances in terms of injury and I am happy with the manager being in charge. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

15 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I dont understand that last paragraph, its relevance or its meaning if I am honest. It seems sarcastic but I am unsure of what exactly you are saying so apologies if not. I was judging an individual thing ie the transfer window against the objectives at the start (to improve the squad) and the failure to do so. The manager himself admitted his dissapointment. Amidst undoubtedly various hurdles to overcome, he was unable to locate signings within his budget as aimed to improve the team. It was a difficult task to improve us with limited funds having spent most of our budget in the summer, but there was still scope and the targets he scouted seemingly were not realistic. There is absolutely no need to extrapolate that opinion, which in my opinion is pretty black and white in terms of meeting objectives, to make an overall conclusion about the manager or our overall progress. 

I gave my opinion on the season to date recently but because I have scrutined the transfer window, it seems to be assumed that I am casting the managers future into doubt, hence the need for a constant staunch defence or deflection by numerous posters over issues I feel are worth scrutiny.

The aim was top 6,  I felt this was a fairly unlikely objective but one he has set for the team. I still dont think we will get into the top 6 and we have yet to even make it temporarily which would boost my confidence in regards to possibly sneaking in at the end of the season.

I have seen progress made in the implentation of a new style, of the development of certain players especially Nyambe, Lenihan Travis and Armstrong and most importantly in terms of points accumulation compared to last season. Phasing out players Mowbray trusts but are no longer good enough has been a somewhat slow process but again we are in a much better position now with Bennett seemingly the final player under that bracket now only a squad player. The money spent on fees in the summer has yielded an even poorer return than I expected and been more of a hindrance than a help. Another key signing has also in my opinion disapointed more often than not in Johnson. 2 further signings I was particularly excited about have been amongst the unfortunate injuries, whilst 2 shorter term signings have massively exceeded my expectations and have been critical in our style change. Walton has pretty much been as expected, a fair few errors but overall I would say average. There are also mitigating circumstances in terms of injury and I am happy with the manager being in charge. 

It was a pretty simple question. I would need to check, but am pretty sure your post in the prediction thread predicted a low finish? I am guessing lower than 12th. So we must be exceeding your expectations? Pretty simple really, not sure why you can't wrap your head around it. 

[Dreams of 1995]

If you don't think Ronan Curtis is a realistic target for us then you must think very little of the club. The £3m asking price was unrealistic but the player definitely not.

[Sparks Rover]

2 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

 he wont sign players who are too expensive or break our wage structure. 

What are you talking about, Chaddy? Gallagher and Brereton were both too expensive , and I believe SG to be on 30k per week. You just talk twaddle constantly.   It's like you just blot out anything that went before if it doesn't fit your argument. 

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

If you don't think Ronan Curtis is a realistic target for us then you must think very little of the club. The £3m asking price was unrealistic but the player definitely not.

Well we couldnt afford the player within our budget so it is therefore unrealistic.

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

It was a pretty simple question. I would need to check, but am pretty sure your post in the prediction thread predicted a low finish? I am guessing lower than 12th. So we must be exceeding your expectations? Pretty simple really, not sure why you can't wrap your head around it. 

The benchmark has always been the top 6 target set in the summer. I didnt think we would get into the top 6 but expected a considerable improvement on 15th. My expectations reduced as the season went on, especially when we was festering near the bottom and again my expectations took a temporary hit following Dacks injury. If you are measuring where we are now v start of the season, we are slightly behind where we aimed to be and not far off what I expected. Compared to my expectations during the season at our 2 lowest ebbs then obviously we are well in front.

All of this though is irrelevant to my valid point that we failed our objectives of the transfer window, something I am sure Mowbray would agree with.

[Bigdoggsteel]

4 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

The benchmark has always been the top 6 target set in the summer. I didnt think we would get into the top 6 but expected a considerable improvement on 15th. My expectations reduced as the season went on, especially when we was festering near the bottom and again my expectations took a temporary hit following Dacks injury. If you are measuring where we are now v start of the season, we are slightly behind where we aimed to be and not far off what I expected. Compared to my expectations during the season at our 2 lowest ebbs then obviously we are well in front.

All of this though is irrelevant to my valid point that we failed our objectives of the transfer window, something I am sure Mowbray would agree with.

It's not irrelevant, it's just a separate issue. I agreed that window was a failure a minute after the deadline. 

On the highlighted piece, "not far off what I expected", so you predicted play-offs, ya? That's surprising because 99% of your posts come across as being critical of one thing or another. Very rarely, if ever, see you give any praise, even where deserved. I suppose you love trotting out the line that play offs were the expectation even though nobody on the board predicted we would get anywhere near it. Ya, ya Mowbray said it a while ago yada yada 

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Bigdoggsteel

[Dreams of 1995]

26 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Well we couldnt afford the player within our budget so it is therefore unrealistic.

Nah. It's overpriced. You can show interest in a player and then wait for the price back. Nothing wrong with that.

Incidentally wasn't it you who criticised us for not going in for Maddison? He was £2,5m, clearly out of our budget if £3m is, so why would you have wanted us to 'chase an unrealistic target'? The goalposts move constantly at the moment.

21 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

The benchmark has always been the top 6 target set in the summer. I didnt think we would get into the top 6 but expected a considerable improvement on 15th. My expectations reduced as the season went on, especially when we was festering near the bottom and again my expectations took a temporary hit following Dacks injury. If you are measuring where we are now v start of the season, we are slightly behind where we aimed to be and not far off what I expected. Compared to my expectations during the season at our 2 lowest ebbs then obviously we are well in front.

All of this though is irrelevant to my valid point that we failed our objectives of the transfer window, something I am sure Mowbray would agree with.

You are very good at using words to accentuate a point. "Festering" near the bottom would mean that we've spent a lot of time this season there. I decided, as usual, to do a bit of research:

Matchdays 1 - 3 = Bottom Half.

Matchday 4 - 11th

Rather than list each matchday I'll zip ahead, for the sake of ease

Matchday 5 = 13th

Matchday 10 = 12th

Matchday 15 = 16th

Matchday 20 = 10th

Matchday 25 = 13th

Matchday 30 = 13th

Matchday 33 = 8th

In what part of the season did we "fester" near the bottom? The first 3 games? I'd never ever ever consider the first 3 games as festering. The table changes dramatically up until about gameday 12.

Source: https://fussball.wettpoint.com/en/tables/england-championship.html

We may have different definitions of festering and realistic.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Dreams of 1995

[roversfan99]

1 minute ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

It's not irrelevant, it's just a separate issue. I agreed that window was a failure a minute after the deadline. 

On the highlighted piece, "not far off what I expected", so you predicted play-offs, ya? That's surprising because 99% of your posts come across as being critical of one thing or another. Very rarely, if ever, see you give any praise, even where deserved. I suppose you love trotting out the line that play offs were the expectation even though nobody on the board predicted we would get anywhere near it. Ya, ya Mowbray said it a while ago yada yada 

 

You perceive my stance to be negative and have been very focused on trying to trip up people who you think fall under that category to the point whereby you are just totally ignoring anything positive. Of course positives are usually much less dicussion worthy because there is more agreement and thus less debate. I have just repeated a huge evaluation in which I stated that I am happy with the manager, have seen progress this season and highlighted at least as many positives as negatives.

The expectations that matter are the ones before the season, the one the manager set out, the aim we all wanted and the one the incoming players echoed. Thats the benchmark, where we are aiming, not if and where I felt we would fall short. Ultimately we have never at any point been in the top 6 and yet for someone being so negative it is surely strange for me to be happy with the manager, surely I would use that as proof that he should be sacked or that am I unhappy? My expectations are going to be lower like anyone else when we were 12 places off the play offs or when our best player gets a bad injury, but I have been impressed by recovery from both.

[Bigdoggsteel]

2 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

You perceive my stance to be negative and have been very focused on trying to trip up people who you think fall under that category to the point whereby you are just totally ignoring anything positive. Of course positives are usually much less dicussion worthy because there is more agreement and thus less debate. I have just repeated a huge evaluation in which I stated that I am happy with the manager, have seen progress this season and highlighted at least as many positives as negatives.

The expectations that matter are the ones before the season, the one the manager set out, the aim we all wanted and the one the incoming players echoed. Thats the benchmark, where we are aiming, not if and where I felt we would fall short. Ultimately we have never at any point been in the top 6 and yet for someone being so negative it is surely strange for me to be happy with the manager, surely I would use that as proof that he should be sacked or that am I unhappy? My expectations are going to be lower like anyone else when we were 12 places off the play offs or when our best player gets a bad injury, but I have been impressed by recovery from both.

That's better  

[roversfan99]

14 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Nah. It's overpriced. You can show interest in a player and then wait for the price back. Nothing wrong with that.

Incidentally wasn't it you who criticised us for not going in for Maddison? He was £2,5m, clearly out of our budget if £3m is, so why would you have wanted us to 'chase an unrealistic target'? The goalposts move constantly at the moment.

You are very good at using words to accentuate a point. "Festering" near the bottom would mean that we've spent a lot of time this season there. I decided, as usual, to do a bit of research:

Matchdays 1 - 3 = Bottom Half.

Matchday 4 - 11th

Rather than list each matchday I'll zip ahead, for the sake of ease

Matchday 5 = 13th

Matchday 10 = 12th

Matchday 15 = 16th

Matchday 20 = 10th

Matchday 25 = 13th

Matchday 30 = 13th

Matchday 33rd = 8th

In what part of the season did we "fester" near the bottom? The first 3 games? I'd never ever ever consider the first 3 games as festering. The table changes dramatically up until about gameday 12.

Source: https://fussball.wettpoint.com/en/tables/england-championship.html

We may have different definitions of festering and realistic.

We didnt know the exact budget until after the window so there was no noving of the goal posts. But Maddison didnt go for 2.5m, he went for a 6 figure loan I think with another fee to make it permanent in the summer. 

Most of the conversation about Maddison since has been people going out of their way to try and prove that we were right about not signing him, mainly fabricated nonsense about his atttude.

I meant around the time of the Preston away game and Huddersfield at home, im sure we were 17th or 18th. Again my point has been taken out of context regarding my expectations were at the lowest at that point during the season, naturally. Wasnt even a criticism.

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 minute ago, roversfan99 said:

We didnt know the exact budget until after the window so there was no noving of the goal posts. But Maddison didnt go for 2.5m, he went for a 6 figure loan I think with another fee to make it permanent in the summer. 

Most of the conversation about Maddison since has been people going out of their way to try and prove that we were right about not signing him, mainly fabricated nonsense about his atttude.

I meant around the time of the Preston away game and Huddersfield at home, im sure we were 17th or 18th. Again my point has been taken out of context regarding my expectations were at the lowest at that point during the season, naturally. Wasnt even a criticism.

You do realise that you regularly use "rumours" or "speculation" to make your own points, but then look down on, scoff at and attempt to belittle others who do the exact same to counteract your point? Or if it is just something you disagree with

So your rumours good, other peoples bad.  

[briansol]

3 hours ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

It's not  "failure" if the right players aren't there at the right prices. It's a question of exercising judgement - it would have been failure if we had brought the wrong players in.

I'm in the Pro-Mowbray camp, but I think it's fair to say the transfer window was a failure. The goal was to bring at least one or two reinforcements in. There is plenty of valid reasons why it didn't happen, many outside the control of the club, but objectively the goal wasn't met. 

A manager ultimately get judged by results, and currently you have to say they are good. We are still in the running for play-offs which was the goal set out. 

[Leonard Venkhater]

5 hours ago, 47er said:

We need probably 7 players this summer which is an eloquent comment on last summer's Transfer Window.

Some of our key players are not our's, some players are getting on and there is poor balance in the squad.

 

However, we are winning so what do I know?!!

 

Enjoying it, while it lasts.

To be honest, I don't know what to think anymore. I don't believe all the previous criticisms about transfer windows and selections were invalid.

And I can't quite shake the idea of a spoof headline:Mowbray in injury crisis saves season shock..

To be in this position with all the absentees, TM deserves huge credit.

Can Samuel really be like a new signing? Can we keep our back four injury/suspension free?  Is the recent Walton going to turn out to be the real one? 

Now I am getting flashbacks of Furphy et al circa 1972. Do I dare to believe? Even if we lose on Saturday, it will not be over.

Anyway, 3 of mine will be behind the away end goal again on Saturday. We have certainly come a long way, since that desperate relegation day, when my eldest was escorted out of the Brentford home end with his protest banner-applauded by the Brentford fans! 

[m1st]

On 15/02/2020 at 09:58, MarkBRFC said:

I certainly understand the point given our owners track record, but it doesn't mean we should cling on to him until he doesn't fancy it anymore.

I think he's done ok, and achieved what I would probably expect results wise so far during his time here despite some horrendous runs and baffling team selections, It sounds harsh considering what went on before him, but I do think he should have kept us up in his first few months though.

But I honestly think, If Tony Mowbray is the glass ceiling for this club then it's probably time to pack it in.

I've come late to this debate and am 'bingeing' on the last 10 pages or so of this thread at the moment. And, although I've gone a couple of pages beyond Mark's post above, I keep coming back to it.

And that's because I'm perplexed by the last phrase in it. I'm not sure what it means.

Are you saying, Mark, that if we can't get a better manager than TM: then the club should fold; that; if he's eventually replaced but by another name from the client-group of our least favourite agents, we should stop supporting the club; or what?

Have to say that sounds like a real counsel of despair to me.

[roversfan99]

22 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

You do realise that you regularly use "rumours" or "speculation" to make your own points, but then look down on, scoff at and attempt to belittle others who do the exact same to counteract your point? Or if it is just something you disagree with

So your rumours good, other peoples bad.  

What rumours have I used to make my points? Or even to scoff at others? If you mean Maddison, the thing I maintained was that the only actual evidence of anything was his chairman saying that his transfer was partially money motivated, which I dont see as an issue. If people can find anything showing or highlighting a bad attitude, be my guest.

My whole point was that the transfer window was unsuccesful, which youve agreed. And that so many people are desperate to make other fans seem like they are just only interested in negatives that it affects their judgement, that is the case for the odd one but its the same with people who defend every single thing the manager does or if they cant, they deflect. There has been so much crowing after Saturdays win but more about desperation to humiliate and pick apart people perceived to be too negative rather than the actual result.

I dont think you could file my overall opinion and current outlook as negative, yet you are continuing as if I am.

[Stuart]

4 hours ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

It's not  "failure" if the right players aren't there at the right prices. It's a question of exercising judgement - it would have been failure if we had brought the wrong players in.

It’s a failure because we needed new faces and didn’t get any. We didn’t get them because nobody did their homework on targets. We know this because Mowbray was shocked at the numbers being talked.

This good and defensive-injury-free run we are currently on has covered a multitude of sins.

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

If you mean Maddison, the thing I maintained was that the only actual evidence of anything was his chairman saying that his transfer was partially money motivated, which I dont see as an issue. If people can find anything showing or highlighting a bad attitude, be my guest.

We heard from the Peterborough Chairman about his attitude but you dispute it every time tho. But you have nothing to dispute apart from your dislike of Chairman being open and honest with his fans and public.