Tony Mowbray Discussion

[Blue blood]

@chaddyrovers I'm not surprised you see nothing wrong with 3/5 of our best back 5 being loans but I struggle to see how this is the case. 

1) defending is built on continuity - how can that happen when the defence changes each year?

2) how can you build a long term style when you don't know the players you will have each year? How does it help the rest of the team gel given they have such a changeable back line each year. 

3) what if we can't get the players of the right quality in? That's a lot of defensive reinforcements to find. We need 3 successful defensive signings to stay even. That's a lot of pressure to do in the summer, not to mention other parts of the team. 

4) issue with loan signings, especially youngsters - what if they are recalled or take half a season to settle. The latter in particular (see Walton) means we're constantly dipping in quality even if we get the loans right. And if recalled where is the recompense for us? 

Of course there's always a risk and negative to loans but when the majority of the defence is made up of this then those risks and problems become huge. Can't really believe anyone doesn't think this is an unhealthy position to be in. 

@Oldgregg86 I think you are spot on about how transfers will occur. On the upside whilst I am a tad sceptical of Messer's Bereton Gally and Samuel we also will have Dack and Holtby and hopefully Gally will play up front more which can only help his goal ratio. so not all doom and gloom going forwards, especially if we sign a winger. 

[Oldgregg86]

44 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

@chaddyrovers I'm not surprised you see nothing wrong with 3/5 of our best back 5 being loans but I struggle to see how this is the case. 

1) defending is built on continuity - how can that happen when the defence changes each year?

2) how can you build a long term style when you don't know the players you will have each year? How does it help the rest of the team gel given they have such a changeable back line each year. 

3) what if we can't get the players of the right quality in? That's a lot of defensive reinforcements to find. We need 3 successful defensive signings to stay even. That's a lot of pressure to do in the summer, not to mention other parts of the team. 

4) issue with loan signings, especially youngsters - what if they are recalled or take half a season to settle. The latter in particular (see Walton) means we're constantly dipping in quality even if we get the loans right. And if recalled where is the recompense for us? 

Of course there's always a risk and negative to loans but when the majority of the defence is made up of this then those risks and problems become huge. Can't really believe anyone doesn't think this is an unhealthy position to be in. 

@Oldgregg86 I think you are spot on about how transfers will occur. On the upside whilst I am a tad sceptical of Messer's Bereton Gally and Samuel we also will have Dack and Holtby and hopefully Gally will play up front more which can only help his goal ratio. so not all doom and gloom going forwards, especially if we sign a winger. 

Dack won’t be back til Xmas and will need time get back to his usually standards which still means we will be heavily reliant on the four aforementioned. Hopefully Holtby will be able to also contribute when fit

[Blue blood]

7 minutes ago, Oldgregg86 said:

Dack won’t be back til Xmas and will need time get back to his usually standards which still means we will be heavily reliant on the four aforementioned. Hopefully Holtby will be able to also contribute when fit

Yes that is true. However thinking longer term I imagine he will be back which can help. You're right it could make for a rougher first half of the season especially. I think Holtby and Armstrong could be a really good partnership. 

Also I was reminded of Hughes first season and a half here - bar Bellamy his strikers were pretty mediocre- Dickov, Kuqi, Stead but with a good team behind them and playing to their strengths they got a few goals. Even now, we're still scoring goals with only Graham to add to that. I was very worried about goals without Dack but we somehow seem to be doing ok. Whether we should be in this position of mediocre at best strikers bar Armstrong £12 mill + in is another question mind! 

[Stuart]

6 hours ago, MarkBRFC said:

Imagine if we somehow get to the play off final.

The final falls on May 25th, so at some point after that, Mowbray will have to go to India for a week to discuss budgets, following that he usually has a 2 week family holiday, and then the Euro's will be starting which will also be used as an excuse for "slow business".

Don't expect any signings until the players are deep into pre season training, and even then they no doubt will have to learn our complicated way of playing.

 

He’s going to be pretty shocked by the wages players want too.

[arbitro]

4 hours ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

If you look at the use of loan players in this division you will see that the likes of West Brom and Leeds actually have a greater reliance on them than we do.

All defenders?

[47er]

10 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

We will be priced out of moves for Tosin or Walton unless we go up. So hopefully the Euro scouting network have identified a hard as nails Serb or 2 ,along with a couple of exotic and highly skilled full-backs 

Its our best season since we are relegated so just enjoy it mate! Stop worrying, it'll be OK.

[47er]

2 hours ago, Blue blood said:

Yes that is true. However thinking longer term I imagine he will be back which can help. You're right it could make for a rougher first half of the season especially. I think Holtby and Armstrong could be a really good partnership. 

Also I was reminded of Hughes first season and a half here - bar Bellamy his strikers were pretty mediocre- Dickov, Kuqi, Stead but with a good team behind them and playing to their strengths they got a few goals. Even now, we're still scoring goals with only Graham to add to that. I was very worried about goals without Dack but we somehow seem to be doing ok. Whether we should be in this position of mediocre at best strikers bar Armstrong £12 mill + in is another question mind! 

Hughes had the ability to get the best out of them. Ordinary players could excel. Particularly true of Kuqi.

[OldEwoodBlue]

11 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

We will be priced out of moves for Tosin or Walton unless we go up. So hopefully the Euro scouting network have identified a hard as nails Serb or 2 ,along with a couple of exotic and highly skilled full-backs 

Mowbray said Tosin would be at least £18 million and we will never afford but he will ask City for another 6 months.

Its probably Joleon Lescott's call.

[tomphil]

7 hours ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

If you look at the use of loan players in this division you will see that the likes of West Brom and Leeds actually have a greater reliance on them than we do.

Other clubs and managers seem to invest in their back line and keeper 

Dangerous game loaning a load in every season. 

[chaddyrovers]

11 hours ago, arbitro said:

We will be looking to revamp our squad with up to eight players during what will be Mowbrays seventh transfer window. Where is the succession planning?

We need a revamp the squad to get in better quality to push us onto the next step

10 hours ago, JHRover said:

Mowbray has tried to justify what happened with Raya going and nobody coming in. I'm afraid I simply don't accept that selling our 1st choice keeper to a club like Brentford without anyone else lined up to come in is reasonable or appropriate. Mowbray can repeat excuses about the market until blue in the face. It isnt acceptable.

For the manager to be talking about recruiting an entire new defence this summer is ludicrous. No matter how you want to dress it up. It is a consequence of over reliance on loans and cutting corners on those positions and is not healthy. This has been going on since 2012. The owners will not allow funds to be used on those positions. 

Imagine if we got up in late May and then had only a few weeks to assemble a defence ahead of a Premier League season. Madness.

Likewise any hopes of going again with momentum next season to go one better hinge upon us getting early good business done and those players settling in quickly. Won't work on past evidence, when it took all summer to get Tosin in and Cunningham at the 11th hour once we found a taker for Mulgrew.

Well then don't accept but its fact. we tried for 2 foreign keepers and we were close but sadly they decide to sign for a club in their home country. 

If we get the playoffs final you would hope that the budget meeting with the owners happens before the final. 

Well with us having our new head of European scouting in place you would hope that we finalise our top targets from Europe by April and we enter discussions with the Player's club and agent. I would expect majority of our signings to come from Europe. 

we need 3/4 defenders in. Hopefully we can get Tosin back for a full season next season and that allow our new centre back time to settle in. We need a first choice left back and a back up right back in to cover for Nyambe. 

8 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

I think you are assuming that we are a club run efficiently and coherently and are blissfully ignoring the delays that inevitably come within the owners and their stubborn way of working which as others have pointed out causes delays.

I doubt we will have loads of money but we need 2 wingers as a matter of urgency as we are sorely lacking there.

Why would you want a target man if we are now supposedly playing a passing style? I must have missed any improvement in Bell too, get shot of him.

For me, we only need 1 winger.

Target man signing? to give us a plan B when plan A isn't working. 

we will have to agree to disagree on Bell's improvement 

[chaddyrovers]

5 hours ago, Oldgregg86 said:

Dack won’t be back til Xmas and will need time get back to his usually standards which still means we will be heavily reliant on the four aforementioned. Hopefully Holtby will be able to also contribute when fit

I think he will be sooner than Christmas time. No Knee cast on today when a video was posted on Instagram earlier 

6 hours ago, Blue blood said:

@chaddyrovers I'm not surprised you see nothing wrong with 3/5 of our best back 5 being loans but I struggle to see how this is the case. 

1) defending is built on continuity - how can that happen when the defence changes each year?

2) how can you build a long term style when you don't know the players you will have each year? How does it help the rest of the team gel given they have such a changeable back line each year. 

3) what if we can't get the players of the right quality in? That's a lot of defensive reinforcements to find. We need 3 successful defensive signings to stay even. That's a lot of pressure to do in the summer, not to mention other parts of the team. 

4) issue with loan signings, especially youngsters - what if they are recalled or take half a season to settle. The latter in particular (see Walton) means we're constantly dipping in quality even if we get the loans right. And if recalled where is the recompense for us? 

 

we have to hope we can get the right players in as early as possible, I would imagine Mowbray is spending his time looking at potential; signings reports and videos now. 

I disagree on Walton being less quality then Raya. Depends on the terms of the loan deal and what is included in the deal. 

That's why you buy players that can play the style you want and adapt quickly. 

2 hours ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

Mowbray said Tosin would be at least £18 million and we will never afford but he will ask City for another 6 months.

Its probably Joleon Lescott's call.

I really hope we can get him back. 

Edited March 4, 2020 by chaddyrovers

[arbitro]

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/18278184.mowbray-opted-nyambe-centre-half-rovers/

It's a good thing Mowbray wasn't the manager when Phil Jones made his debut against the likes of Drogba. In my view it's another load of twaddle from Mowbray (and he actually had Carter on the bench at Charlton and Brentford).

Edit: Just checked and he made his Middlesbrough debut at 19 and was captain at 22.

Edited March 4, 2020 by arbitro

[Mattyblue]

If only there was another centre half captain hanging around the place...

[Amo]

22 minutes ago, arbitro said:

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/18278184.mowbray-opted-nyambe-centre-half-rovers/

It's a good thing Mowbray wasn't the manager when Phil Jones made his debut against the likes of Drogba. In my view it's another load of twaddle from Mowbray (and he actually had Carter on the bench at Charlton and Brentford).

To be fair, Jones had the likes of Salgado and Samba to mentor him. Carter would be playing with Nyambe and Tosin, who are both still pretty raw.

Edited March 4, 2020 by Amo

[arbitro]

4 minutes ago, Amo said:

To be fair, Jones had the likes of Salgado and Samba to support him. Carter would be playing with Nyambe and Tosin, who are both still pretty raw.

And Mowbray had Gary Pallister alongside him who is a similar age. 

[chaddyrovers]

I wonder if Carter would have played if Lenihan was available and Adarabioyo was unavailable. 

[Mashed Potatoes]

9 hours ago, tomphil said:

Other clubs and managers seem to invest in their back line and keeper 

Dangerous game loaning a load in every season. 

The owners' track record shows they are unwilling to sanction significant transfer fees on defensive players - in those circumstances what alternative does a manager have ?

[Mattyblue]

Thinking off the top of my head here. But a couple of hundred grand for Bell aside, have we bought a keeper or defender for decent money in Venky’s time?

[Amo]

3 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Thinking off the top of my head here. But a couple of hundred grand for Bell aside, have we bought a keeper or defender for decent money in Venky’s time?

Scott Dann but apparently that was less than reported.

[Mattyblue]

Yeah I suppose even defenders got splurged on in the early years. But since relegation?

[tomphil]

11 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

The owners' track record shows they are unwilling to sanction significant transfer fees on defensive players - in those circumstances what alternative does a manager have ?

Tell them straight what is needed.

Or 

Spent what's available elsewhere via his mates and toe the line.

By the way Bauer was a free and there were others out there. You don't have to invest 6 million in every player.

[Mashed Potatoes]

28 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Tell them straight what is needed.

Or 

Spent what's available elsewhere via his mates and toe the line.

By the way Bauer was a free and there were others out there. You don't have to invest 6 million in every player.

I am afraid that anyone who tells the owner "straight what is needed" is clutching their P45 shortly afterwards.

Bauer no doubt wanted a significant signing on fee and in any case is he better than Tosin ?

[chaddyrovers]

3 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

I am afraid that anyone who tells the owner "straight what is needed" is clutching their P45 shortly afterwards.

Bauer no doubt wanted a significant signing on fee and in any case is he better than Tosin ?

Bauer isn't better than Tosin. If Bauer wasnt willing to fight for his spot did we really want him? 

[tomphil]

1 minute ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

I am afraid that anyone who tells the owner "straight what is needed" is clutching their P45 shortly afterwards.

Bauer no doubt wanted a significant signing on fee and in any case is he better than Tosin ?

Tony is god in their eyes apparently, if he wanted a few million for a defender or keeper he'd have got it. The end.

As for Tosin well you've just fallen into the trap we are discussing the merits of loans, stop gaps and constantly upsetting the back line versus investing in it in our own players building a platform and looking longer term.

One is stability and building, the other is putting plasters over holes that won't heal themselves.

[Mashed Potatoes]

33 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Tony is god in their eyes apparently, if he wanted a few million for a defender or keeper he'd have got it. The end.

As for Tosin well you've just fallen into the trap we are discussing the merits of loans, stop gaps and constantly upsetting the back line versus investing in it in our own players building a platform and looking longer term.

One is stability and building, the other is putting plasters over holes that won't heal themselves.

No evidence that Tony is "god" - Venkys don't look at employees like that.

Skillful use of the loan system is part and parcel of successful management in this division.