Tony Mowbray Discussion

[47er]

11 hours ago, TruRover said:

If TM did go, who would people want instead and why

Hughes but I realise I'm unlikely to ever see that.

[Atko's Engine]

Just now, 47er said:

17 points from 19 games.....

But this season is a different one to last season, so they cannot be fairly compared.

There are 6 different 'unknown' opponents (2 of which we've already played), 6 new first 11 players to integrate, a more possession based game being attempted (which most on here agreed was necessary to progress), & some fairly significant new rules to adapt to.

I'm not making excuses, just stating the facts. I'm also not saying forget the bad run, but neither should we forget the very good runs that came before & afterwards. We should learn from them. But I am saying that if anyone (not just TM) is to be judged fairly then it needs to be on a level playing field. Conflating last season with this season is not comparing like for like.

He is trying to change things on & off the pitch from the disorganised shambles this club was when he arrived. He's trying to advance the club on & off the field in a climate of unpredictable ownership & restless natives as a consequence. It's no easy task, hence he deserves the chance of a dozen games to see his ideas & transfer activity put into action.

IMO.

 

[Stuart]

Just now, Atko's Engine said:

But this season is a different one to last season, so they cannot be fairly compared.

There are 6 different 'unknown' opponents (2 of which we've already played), 6 new first 11 players to integrate, a more possession based game being attempted (which most on here agreed was necessary to progress), & some fairly significant new rules to adapt to.

I'm not making excuses, just stating the facts. I'm also not saying forget the bad run, but neither should we forget the very good runs that came before & afterwards. We should learn from them. But I am saying that if anyone (not just TM) is to be judged fairly then it needs to be on a level playing field. Conflating last season with this season is not comparing like for like.

He is trying to change things on & off the pitch from the disorganised shambles this club was when he arrived. He's trying to advance the club on & off the field in a climate of unpredictable ownership & restless natives as a consequence. It's no easy task, hence he deserves the chance of a dozen games to see his ideas & transfer activity put into action.

IMO.

 

It’s all very noble but if clubs followed your advice no manager would ever be sacked.

Interesting point you’ve made about not being able to compare season on season as there are different teams. By that logic, his record in League One cannot be used in his favour. They were almost all different teams (and a different standard).

Mowbray’s Championship record here is abysmal.

[Boroblue]

Just now, Atko's Engine said:

But this season is a different one to last season, so they cannot be fairly compared.

There are 6 different 'unknown' opponents (2 of which we've already played), 6 new first 11 players to integrate, a more possession based game being attempted (which most on here agreed was necessary to progress), & some fairly significant new rules to adapt to.

I'm not making excuses, just stating the facts. I'm also not saying forget the bad run, but neither should we forget the very good runs that came before & afterwards. We should learn from them. But I am saying that if anyone (not just TM) is to be judged fairly then it needs to be on a level playing field. Conflating last season with this season is not comparing like for like.

He is trying to change things on & off the pitch from the disorganised shambles this club was when he arrived. He's trying to advance the club on & off the field in a climate of unpredictable ownership & restless natives as a consequence. It's no easy task, hence he deserves the chance of a dozen games to see his ideas & transfer activity put into action.

IMO.

 

Those good runs weren’t ignored Mowbray and his team were award long term  contracts. He has already been shown the rewards for getting the job done in exactly the same environment so that cant be used has a get out clause for bad results. If he thought it was to difficult an environment to work he shouldn’t have taken the contract. 

Ojectively good results bring rewards in the form of long term contracts bad results bring the opposite ( 17 from19). I unfortunately have little sympathy he knows the rules has had the resources at his disposal and if he fails he is solely responsible.

Im not an expert but has an observer a starting point would to get that defence organised and put in place a playing style that gets the best from the players available.

Has a side note Bennett is not a defender or an on the field captain and that is a definitel

[Paul Mani]

13 hours ago, Stuart said:

He only has himself to blame.

I agree. I don’t know why he put so much pressure on himself tbh. The team finished 15th. To have stated that he was looking to further improve looking for a top 10 finish would have kept most fans and the owners happy imo.

When he came out at the end of last season saying he wanted top 6 I was sure he must have been given the nod by Venkys to spend £15-20m net this window. That obv was not the case...

So now they’re stuck with the expectation of a top 6 club and the budget of a bottom half club. Barring a miracle, I think he’s signed his own death warrant.

[RoversClitheroe]

27 minutes ago, Atko's Engine said:

But this season is a different one to last season, so they cannot be fairly compared.

There are 6 different 'unknown' opponents (2 of which we've already played), 6 new first 11 players to integrate, a more possession based game being attempted (which most on here agreed was necessary to progress), & some fairly significant new rules to adapt to.

I'm not making excuses, just stating the facts. I'm also not saying forget the bad run, but neither should we forget the very good runs that came before & afterwards. We should learn from them. But I am saying that if anyone (not just TM) is to be judged fairly then it needs to be on a level playing field. Conflating last season with this season is not comparing like for like.

He is trying to change things on & off the pitch from the disorganised shambles this club was when he arrived. He's trying to advance the club on & off the field in a climate of unpredictable ownership & restless natives as a consequence. It's no easy task, hence he deserves the chance of a dozen games to see his ideas & transfer activity put into action.

IMO.

 

Championship form is absolutely awful. Same back 4.

Same mistakes. 

@Stuart is spot on.

[Paul Mani]

22 minutes ago, Stuart said:

It’s all very noble but if clubs followed your advice no manager would ever be sacked.

Interesting point you’ve made about not being able to compare season on season as there are different teams. By that logic, his record in League One cannot be used in his favour. They were almost all different teams (and a different standard).

Mowbray’s Championship record here is abysmal.

You were doing so well until this!! 

Mowbrays Championship record with Rovers is pretty far from abysmal. In the season we went down the team performed in line the top 6 following his arrival. Last season (barring that god awful run which exposed our squad depth) we were a top half team in our first season back and we’re two games in to this season... I’m not saying Mowbray is tearing up trees in the Championship. His results are fair at worst and good at best. 

Abysmal, they are not. 

[RV Blue]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

You were doing so well until this!! 

Mowbrays Championship record with Rovers is pretty far from abysmal. In the season we went down the team performed in line the top 6 following his arrival. Last season (barring that god awful run which exposed our squad depth) we were a top half team in our first season back and we’re two games in to this season... I’m not saying Mowbray is tearing up trees in the Championship. His results are fair at worst and good at best. 

Abysmal, they are not. 

Barring all the games we lost, we were an invincible Championship winning team in our first season back. Give Tony a knighthood.

[RoversClitheroe]

Just now, RV Blue said:

Barring all the games we lost, we were an invincible Championship winning team in our first season back. Give Tony a knighthood.

Haha

[Atko's Engine]

37 minutes ago, Stuart said:

It’s all very noble but if clubs followed your advice no manager would ever be sacked.

Sorry Stuart how do you draw that conclusion from what I said? I've not said don't judge him or that he can't be sacked, I've just said don't do it 2 games into the new season.

His L1 performance is there on record as being one of the best ever achieved in that division. But it is not something that is relevant to judging progress made this season compared to last.

And his Championship record here overall is not abysmal, especially in the context of working at this club from the state it was in when he arrived.  I'm sorry that's just hyperbole and wrong.  I don't just have the stats right now but in his 3 months or so pre-relegation i think our points per game haul improved to near play-off requirements if stretched across a full season, and last season we finished with a comfortable 60 points. Of course we could say we wanted more, or that we should have got more with better game management (hence the more game-savvy experienced players brought in this summer), but in neither case can it be described as abysmal.

Like I said, he is trying to change things, and deserves the chance to see the fruits of his efforts sink or swim. Certainly longer than 2 games this season.

Edit: beaten to it by Pail Mani!

Edited August 13, 2019 by Atko's Engine

[CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber]

3 hours ago, Paul Mani said:

I’d wanna give Johnson a go...

This is the only realistic option for me. 

Hughes not only wouldn't come back I'd worry he'd have the energy to essentially start over again. He came here in 2004 to build his career and quite rightly got the big move in 2008. I seriously doubt he'd want to come back to the club 15 years later with it in a significantly worse position than when he left, plus now with some of the worst owners in football. 

[Gamst]

Mowbray seems to be making a lot of bewildering decisions that are generally at odds with the fan consensus. Generally not a good indicator of longevity. 

[Atko's Engine]

Just now, RoversClitheroe said:

Championship form is absolutely awful. Same back 4.

Same mistakes. 

@Stuart is spot on.

I'm afraid I disagree for reasons stated above. And although his back 4 against Charlton wasn't strong, the Boro game will likely see 3 different players to those, 2 of them through choice (Tosin & Cunningham).

I would like to see Nyambe too rather than Bennett, which I do agree is a mistake on TM's part & something that may come back to haunt him.

[47er]

50 minutes ago, Atko's Engine said:

But this season is a different one to last season, so they cannot be fairly compared.

There are 6 different 'unknown' opponents (2 of which we've already played), 6 new first 11 players to integrate, a more possession based game being attempted (which most on here agreed was necessary to progress), & some fairly significant new rules to adapt to.

I'm not making excuses, just stating the facts. I'm also not saying forget the bad run, but neither should we forget the very good runs that came before & afterwards. We should learn from them. But I am saying that if anyone (not just TM) is to be judged fairly then it needs to be on a level playing field. Conflating last season with this season is not comparing like for like.

He is trying to change things on & off the pitch from the disorganised shambles this club was when he arrived. He's trying to advance the club on & off the field in a climate of unpredictable ownership & restless natives as a consequence. It's no easy task, hence he deserves the chance of a dozen games to see his ideas & transfer activity put into action.

IMO.

 

You are making excuses. Of course every season is different, you can't simply start every season with a clean slate. Every manager has history but I see this manager repeating his history and making the same mistakes. You say "give him a dozen games". Venkys surely will but will you come up with new excuses at the end of it?

 

[arbitro]

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/rovers/news/17832521.mowbray-missing-rovers-transfer-target-fulham/

Although it's open to interpretation I read this as backtracking by Mowbray and an attempt to lower supporters expectations (for the ones who believed his top 6 diatribe). The cost of loan players from Premier League clubs has always been fraught with risk and can be expensive. And competing with clubs receiving parachute payments can also be difficult but surely he was aware of this when he talked about top 6. Maybe he was cryptically telling us that the answer lies in bringing players in cheap from Europe but that didn't materialise either.

It reads to me that another season of 'stability' is in the offing and next summer when the loans and out of contract players go we will again begin a rebuild. We are going round in circles.

[47er]

Just now, CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber said:

This is the only realistic option for me. 

Hughes not only wouldn't come back I'd worry he'd have the energy to essentially start over again. He came here in 2004 to build his career and quite rightly got the big move in 2008. I seriously doubt he'd want to come back to the club 15 years later with it in a significantly worse position than when he left, plus now with some of the worst owners in football. 

Was asked who I wanted and Hughes was it. 

I know he's not coming back and I'm on the record as expecting Johnno to be TM's successor.

[Atko's Engine]

Just now, 47er said:

You are making excuses. Of course every season is different, you can't simply start every season with a clean slate. Every manager has history but I see this manager repeating his history and making the same mistakes. You say "give him a dozen games". Venkys surely will but will you come up with new excuses at the end of it?

 

Nope, I won't. I'd say by then that we need to have around 5 wins and a couple of draws and to see good performances in order to be able to say he's on track & think positively about his performances & choices. 17 points from 12 games is near play-off challenging, so only slight improvements would be needed going forward from there to make us realistic top six material, be that through coaching or good use of the Jan window (learning from last season). 

If he's not in that ballpark, then he'll have little defence.

[gumboots]

He already has little defence. That's one of the problems 

[JHRover]

Just now, arbitro said:

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/rovers/news/17832521.mowbray-missing-rovers-transfer-target-fulham/

Although it's open to interpretation I read this as backtracking by Mowbray and an attempt to lower supporters expectations (for the ones who believed his top 6 diatribe). The cost of loan players from Premier League clubs has always been fraught with risk and can be expensive. And competing with clubs receiving parachute payments can also be difficult but surely he was aware of this when he talked about top 6. Maybe he was cryptically telling us that the answer lies in bringing players in cheap from Europe but that didn't materialise either.

It reads to me that another season of 'stability' is in the offing and next summer when the loans and out of contract players go we will again begin a rebuild. We are going round in circles.

The latest in a growing list of excuses from Mowbray and Waggott who seem to be able to talk a good game but repeatedly fail to deliver on it.

It seems to have gone under the radar that on deadline day Mowbray was seeking 'a few' and we ended up with one in and one out on loans. Another missed target.

Nobody is judging Mowbray entirely on 2 games this season. There's more to it than that. Weak/poor transfer business, failing to deliver on his own promises and the lack of any identity or style of play resulting in mind numbing football at times all contribute to an exhausting well of patience.

Any competent club would also be looking at his performance over the last few months rather than 2 games and have concerns, particularly given his past career performance. Sadly at good old Rovers there is unlikely to be any such concern as Mowbray is effectively running the club and everything looks very cosy. Nobody is going to upset the apple cart so on it will go regardless of results and performances.

 

[tomphil]

40 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

I agree. I don’t know why he put so much pressure on himself tbh. The team finished 15th. To have stated that he was looking to further improve looking for a top 10 finish would have kept most fans and the owners happy imo.

When he came out at the end of last season saying he wanted top 6 I was sure he must have been given the nod by Venkys to spend £15-20m net this window. That obv was not the case...

So now they’re stuck with the expectation of a top 6 club and the budget of a bottom half club. Barring a miracle, I think he’s signed his own death warrant.

You cover your arse more than he does, talk about back tracking.... ?

Edited August 13, 2019 by tomphil

[JBiz]

2 hours ago, JHRover said:

The latest in a growing list of excuses from Mowbray and Waggott who seem to be able to talk a good game but repeatedly fail to deliver on it.

It seems to have gone under the radar that on deadline day Mowbray was seeking 'a few' and we ended up with one in and one out on loans. Another missed target.

Nobody is judging Mowbray entirely on 2 games this season. There's more to it than that. Weak/poor transfer business, failing to deliver on his own promises and the lack of any identity or style of play resulting in mind numbing football at times all contribute to an exhausting well of patience.

Any competent club would also be looking at his performance over the last few months rather than 2 games and have concerns, particularly given his past career performance. Sadly at good old Rovers there is unlikely to be any such concern as Mowbray is effectively running the club and everything looks very cosy. Nobody is going to upset the apple cart so on it will go regardless of results and performances.

 

To be fair though JHR, you listed three things people should be looking at to judge him;

1. Poor transfer business

2. Set high targets 

3. Poor football.

I wouldn’t call that balanced or open minded personally. It’s very easy to expect more from something, it’s a bit more difficult to try and see both good and bad.

For instance for 1; I’d say our squad is light years in front of the one he inherited. I’m not just talking new players, but individuals are better. Equally, he’s blooded a few kids in that scenario too.

Cue; he was lucky, he had a top academy, Smallwood for suspended etc etc etc.

For two; I wouldn’t say you’re “that guy” but I know that many here would’ve been outraged should this years “intention” been to consolidate. He/we all wanted new/better players. I’m sure TMs aspirations outweighed his chances this summer - Whilst I’m convinced a better manager/setup would’ve done better, I don’t think we’ve done too bad. Equally - it’s far too early to judge any of them. (New signings

Cue; either “defenders are coming” or “defensively were fine” since that’s an easy way to sweep any argument or justification away.

As for 3 - I’m sure you know as well as I do the importance of “functional” football, results etc. Whilst TM is in no way comparable to the Allardyces or Pulis’s for setting teams up, he found a “style” or system that basically achieved the minimum target. The difficulty now is changing to to be more effective against teams that can defend set pieces/long plays.

Cue; we’ve stumbled and managed to come up through league one “in spite of the manager” purely down to wage bill!

Finally on the point of judging this into last season. I agree that our form in 2019 could be better, but the improvement in performances and results in April/May shouldn’t be ignored as “dead Rubbers” because it suits a POV.

 

Edited August 13, 2019 by Harry The Bass

[roversfan99]

43 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

You were doing so well until this!! 

Mowbrays Championship record with Rovers is pretty far from abysmal. In the season we went down the team performed in line the top 6 following his arrival. Last season (barring that god awful run which exposed our squad depth) we were a top half team in our first season back and we’re two games in to this season... I’m not saying Mowbray is tearing up trees in the Championship. His results are fair at worst and good at best. 

Abysmal, they are not. 

Its definitely not abysmal but somewhat uninspiring would be a fairer description. His good work was done in League 1.

His first season, he came in with the (very difficult) remit of keeping us up. Survival was success and relegation was failure, even though when it comes to apportioning blame obviously Coyle takes far, far, far more. It was of no consolation that we displayed x form so ultimately it was a failed season albeit as mentioned a tremendously difficult task to begin with. He took over with us 23rd in the table, three points from safety with 15 games remaining this season so it wasnt mission impossible. The form certainly wasnt top 6 form either, that it "would have had us 10th over the course of a season" rings a bell but ultimately its impossible to make such statements as we were facing many teams with nothing to play for.

You cant take 2 months of the season out and then say we were a top half team without those squad depth issues. They were as self inflicted as say the Dack signing, and you couldnt say we would have come close to or even have gone down had Mowbray not signed him either, as that wouldnt be fair, Mowbray chose to spend 7m on a sub and not improve our defence, likewise he was responsible for signing Dack. Last seasons finish was ok, not great but not disastrous, comfortable survival.

[Parsonblue]

19 minutes ago, arbitro said:

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/rovers/news/17832521.mowbray-missing-rovers-transfer-target-fulham/

Although it's open to interpretation I read this as backtracking by Mowbray and an attempt to lower supporters expectations (for the ones who believed his top 6 diatribe). The cost of loan players from Premier League clubs has always been fraught with risk and can be expensive. And competing with clubs receiving parachute payments can also be difficult but surely he was aware of this when he talked about top 6. Maybe he was cryptically telling us that the answer lies in bringing players in cheap from Europe but that didn't materialise either.

It reads to me that another season of 'stability' is in the offing and next summer when the loans and out of contract players go we will again begin a rebuild. We are going round in circles.

I think this accurately sums up where we are as a football club at this moment in time.  Idealism has finally met reality.  When Mowbray attends functions with supporters his enthusiasm for the game in general shines through and he starts to talk like a supporter - which is why he connects with some many fans.  But, surely, most supporters would have looked at what we had at the end of last season and realised that without major funding - funding we were never likely to get - we would be tottering around mid to lower mid-table.

I suspect that Mowbray expected to be working with a larger budget than the one he has received and you can argue, fairly, that £5 million on Gallagher is a gamble, as was Brereton.  No manager could turn last season's squad into a top-six squad with just £5 million to play with. 

Long term, buying players from abroad and combining them with our own youngsters is likely to be the way forward but that is fraught with danger as we know from the past.  The likelihood is that you continually sell your better young players to keep the club's head above the financial waterline.

Financially, football is moving in a direction where any numbers of clubs are going to be left behind fighting for their very existence, let alone promotion.  There is every possibility that we may become one of them irrespective of who the manager is.  At the moment the owners are keeping us afloat - which is the least they can do all things considered - but the moment they decide they've had enough the choice of manager will be the least of our problems. 

[CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber]

49 minutes ago, 47er said:

Was asked who I wanted and Hughes was it. 

I know he's not coming back and I'm on the record as expecting Johnno to be TM's successor.

Wasn't actually addressing you but good to know

[JBiz]

I think Mark Hughes would be high up my list if it’s a possibility too.

Only if he’s bringing Eddie N (if you can spell his name, crack on) and Mark Bowen though.

I think it would be a good fit - less money than he’s been allowed to spend (waste) in his previous few places. Lots to fix for him and us.

The common expectation is someone with a broken reputation or a novice. Hughes or Johnson sounds something similar to that.

Edited August 13, 2019 by Harry The Bass