Tony Mowbray Discussion

[Mattyblue]

Injures are part of football, and losing your talisman will undoubtedly have a negative impact on the team.

However, that’s why you have a squad, and a budget. £12 million on forwards should have given us the depth to cope with his absence, but with that enormous amount of money (for a club like us) wasted, then the buck stops with the manager for the poor form post January.

[Dreams of 1995]

36 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Injures are part of football, and losing your talisman will undoubtedly have a negative impact on the team.

However, that’s why you have a squad, and a budget. £12 million on forwards should have given us the depth to cope with his absence, but with that enormous amount of money (for a club like us) wasted, then the buck stops with the manager for the poor form post January.

But our injuries weren't par of the course. I think that is what Atko was getting at.

To lose Dack and Holtby long to medium term was bad enough, to lose all 3 left backs in the squad was even worse. There was a time when this messageboard was very sympathetic towards Mowbray's injury problems. Over time that has changed to "well, he should have forward thought".

I think it was about Feb / March time when our injuries were at their peak. I genuinely thought the break would see us through but results since then have been awful.

Any team losing the amount of players we did this season would struggle. Lenihan has had time out, Evans, Dack, Holtby, Cunningham - they are the spine of the team really, or at least our better players, and we never really got to grips with replacing them.

None of this takes away from the very real criticism of Mowbray's tactics or squad rotation but it does go a certain way to explaining some of our poor results. Some won't see it that way, the clamour for Mowbray out is well and truly underway but one thing I feel like needs to be kept repeating is that everyone else was surprised by the clubs aim for play offs this season. Most of us seemed content with a mid-table finish if I remember correctly, but the club decided to up the ante and have failed to deliver. I don't really think that is just enough reason to sack him though but then again we aren't living in normal times and, where this season the expectation would be to build on the last two seasons, finances will more than likely see us selling rather than buying. 

[RoversClitheroe]

47 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Injures are part of football, and losing your talisman will undoubtedly have a negative impact on the team.

However, that’s why you have a squad, and a budget. £12 million on forwards should have given us the depth to cope with his absence, but with that enormous amount of money (for a club like us) wasted, then the buck stops with the manager for the poor form post January.

Spot on, when you've spent £12m on attacking options, then you literally CANNOT used DACKs injury as an excuse.

[Blue blood]

45 minutes ago, Atko's Engine said:

As I've been clear on here before, I'm in the Mowbray to stay camp, but I've also accepted there's plenty of room for further improvement.

I genuinely do think that this season would have been a more successful one had we had a bit more luck with injuries. Yes that's not the only reason and there's other criticisms that can be fairly levelled, but hear me out.

Obviously there's Dack; our best player for 3 years, top scorer in his time here. Any team would miss a player like that, the focal point of our offensive game. When he got injured we were pushing 6th, albeit in that game itself we weren't pulling up trees. Of course it's too simplistic to say we'd have got 6th had he stayed fit, but for sure we'd have had a better chance.

Moving on, some above queried why didn't we go out & buy a replacement? Well, we already had one in Holtby; not an identikit replacement but a good, competent number 10. Why would he buy another one, which would leave him open to suggestions of not being confident in Holtby, especially with Buckley on the fringes too? Holtby in fact slotted in quite well and it looked like we could then continue to improve without Dack. 

But then he got injured too which is hugely unfortunate given that the team was built on playing with a number 10. With Buckley proving to be not quite ready for that kind of crucial role week in week out, we were left short in that respect but most teams would on losing 2 players in the same position.

There's a few things that undermine this. 1) Holtby wasn't out that long, 2) Holtby has been available throughout the return period and we have played a stupid false 9 formation instead and 3) losing your best player is going to have an impact as you say. Adjusting for this (for which there was plenty of time) doesn't necessarily mean getting a like for like replacement. Maybe we could have replaced Dack's goals with an improved defence bringing in a defender to equally lessen what we conceed, or a striker who was more clinical. Sure keep the formation but that doesn't mean adjustments for Dack being out cannot be made in other ways. 

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Then there's Evans. Ok, I know he has his detractors; I've been amongst them. But he was looking like a main player for us again this season & put in some really strong performances alongside Travis, linking play effectively from front to back, especiallyaround the turn of the year when top 6 was achievable. But then he too, shortly afterwards, suffered a horrific, hugely unfortunate injury. Cue more disruption in a central area resulting in an over-reliance on certain individuals (especially Travis). Even after lockdown, Evans comes back fit, starts, puts in a top performance v Bristol but then breaks his big toe; even for someone with his injury record, this is quite some achievement!

Again Evans' injury record is exceptionally well known. Sure one of them was unfortunate and not due to being injury prone but he consistently has been injured throughout his time here as post lockdown has shown. Relying on someone with such a terrible injury record is asking for trouble. In fact it's plain stupid. This point also ignores the fact Johnson was brought in to be the midfield partner of Travis and has tanked at it. So whatever way you look at it, this is the manager's fault for relying on a sicknote and/or buying a dud alternative. 

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Then look at Cunningham. We were all crying out for a new, top half Championship standard left back who could perform consistently well both defensively& offensively. He came and was looking exactly that, just what we needed. Yet come October he too gets injured & is out for the season. Bell deputises, with mixed results (being generous), but then he too also gets injured. Williams, 3rd choice LB, then also gets injured, with neither of them being available for the crucial 9 match run-in. 

I agree the Cunningham injury was bad fortune. However we never replaced him even with ample time. It also ignores that Williams was our cover for centre back too, so if one of our centre backs had got injured we would have still had a hole in the defence because the manager did not have adequate defensive cover. 

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So then we see Bennett & JRC playing there, which would never have happened but for 3 players suffering medium to long term injuries. You can be pretty sure that Bennett's game time would've been far less had LB not been such a problem position through mid & long term injuries.

This is horse manure to put it bluntly. Sorry that's harsh but it feels like a complete rewriting of how Bennett has been handled by TM. Remember Bennett played the last game because Nayambe "had played a lot of football." Nothing to do with the injury situation but forcing his golden boy into the team at any cost. The idea that Bennett has only played as much as he has because of injuries is laughable. Further evidence of this is that Downing did a decent job at lb (and I thought JRC looked ok there too) but Bennett has been played there ahead of both of them on several occasions. 

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Other short term injuries from time to time, such as those seen with Lenihan & Nyambe, are what you expect in a season, perhaps with 1 longer term one thrown in. To suffer what we have, to players in such key positions can only be considered very bad luck. To have so many players injured in 2-3 positions which are key to the overall effectiveness of the team could not have been predicted or planned for.

Apart from the January transfer window. Plenty of time to rectify it there. Or having adequate defensive cover. Or not relying on a permanent crock in Evans. Plenty of ways we could have improved planning or predicted elements of our misfortune. 

 

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I can hear people now saying this is just excuses, injuries are part of football etc., which I accept is true. But these are nevertheless facts / events beyond TM's control; not the only ones admittedly, there's more to it than that and there have been disappointments elsewhere, but they're true nonetheless. As a consequence I think that's good reason to cut TM some slack for this season and allow him the chance to further develop the squad, get Dack back, another LB, hopefully for BB and / or Gallagher to step up and push for a top 6 berth more aggressively. 

 

Again two issues with this. Firstly other than blind hope what makes you think Gally or Ben will step up, they have been absymal. There's very little evidence whatsoever that they can step up. I don't think we should be giving TM more time because these guys may come good, as they very much look like they won't. 

Secondly even if all of this is accepted (and I think I have made a decent case for why it shouldn't be) what about all the other errors? Gally on the wing. Midfielders as a false 9. The terrible transfers of players such as Walton. The tombola selections. The non scoring strikers. The bottling it whenever we are near to the playoffs. The struggles TM has against teams when we are clear favourites. There's a hell of a lot of issues on top of the ones in your post, even if you can excuse them. 

[Dolly blue]

....and just to make my day , in today’s Telegraph, 

“MOWBRAY HAPPY TO LEAD ROVERS INTO THE NEXT PHASE OF THE JOURNEY “

There is NO light at the end of the tunnel , in fact I no longer believe there’s a tunnel.Can it get any worse ?..that’s me , over and out .

 

[Mattyblue]

Of course we had injury problems, Dreams, but trying to make out it was just bad luck we couldn’t possibly deal with doesn’t wash. 

We lost Cunningham (who played a handful of games) in October, ample chance to bring in a replacement. Bell and Bennett are not Championship quality.

Dack was injured before the January window opened. 

Holtby is a well known crock, you take a risk in his signing, then injuries for him are par for the course, yet lockdown meant he actually missed relatively few games post Dack.

We have signed copious amounts of central midfielders, so Evans (another crock), whose form has always been inconsistent missing 15 or so games shouldn’t be fatal.
 
The others are niggles. But as we do not buy defensive players, then of course we will always be on the verge of a crisis. You also can’t bemoan bad luck when perennially injured players continue to get injured.

Why didn’t we reinforce in January? A team with real aspirations for the top 6 would’ve done just that. It is fairly obvious that the £12 million undoubtably meant we had no wriggle room budget wise, so that kind of goes back to TM’s poor signings and a lopsided squad he has put together.

Edited July 17, 2020 by Mattyblue

[K-Hod]

20 minutes ago, RoversClitheroe said:

Spot on, when you've spent £12m on attacking options, then you literally CANNOT used DACKs injury as an excuse.

I think this is the thing that drives me mad about blaming injuries. They wouldn’t be such an issue if the manager hadn’t spent all our money on two players that have contributed very little to the cause. We wouldn’t have missed Dack or Holtby at all if Brereton and Gallagher had scored regularly....

[rigger]

1 hour ago, Atko's Engine said:

As I've been clear on here before, I'm in the Mowbray to stay camp, but I've also accepted there's plenty of room for further improvement.

I genuinely do think that this season would have been a more successful one had we had a bit more luck with injuries. Yes that's not the only reason and there's other criticisms that can be fairly levelled, but hear me out.

Obviously there's Dack; our best player for 3 years, top scorer in his time here. Any team would miss a player like that, the focal point of our offensive game. When he got injured we were pushing 6th, albeit in that game itself we weren't pulling up trees. Of course it's too simplistic to say we'd have got 6th had he stayed fit, but for sure we'd have had a better chance.

Moving on, some above queried why didn't we go out & buy a replacement? Well, we already had one in Holtby; not an identikit replacement but a good, competent number 10. Why would he buy another one, which would leave him open to suggestions of not being confident in Holtby, especially with Buckley on the fringes too? Holtby in fact slotted in quite well and it looked like we could then continue to improve without Dack. 

But then he got injured too which is hugely unfortunate given that the team was built on playing with a number 10. With Buckley proving to be not quite ready for that kind of crucial role week in week out, we were left short in that respect but most teams would on losing 2 players in the same position.

Then there's Evans. Ok, I know he has his detractors; I've been amongst them. But he was looking like a main player for us again this season & put in some really strong performances alongside Travis, linking play effectively from front to back, especiallyaround the turn of the year when top 6 was achievable. But then he too, shortly afterwards, suffered a horrific, hugely unfortunate injury. Cue more disruption in a central area resulting in an over-reliance on certain individuals (especially Travis). Even after lockdown, Evans comes back fit, starts, puts in a top performance v Bristol but then breaks his big toe; even for someone with his injury record, this is quite some achievement!

Then look at Cunningham. We were all crying out for a new, top half Championship standard left back who could perform consistently well both defensively& offensively. He came and was looking exactly that, just what we needed. Yet come October he too gets injured & is out for the season. Bell deputises, with mixed results (being generous), but then he too also gets injured. Williams, 3rd choice LB, then also gets injured, with neither of them being available for the crucial 9 match run-in. 

So then we see Bennett & JRC playing there, which would never have happened but for 3 players suffering medium to long term injuries. You can be pretty sure that Bennett's game time would've been far less had LB not been such a problem position through mid & long term injuries.

Other short term injuries from time to time, such as those seen with Lenihan & Nyambe, are what you expect in a season, perhaps with 1 longer term one thrown in. To suffer what we have, to players in such key positions can only be considered very bad luck. To have so many players injured in 2-3 positions which are key to the overall effectiveness of the team could not have been predicted or planned for.

I can hear people now saying this is just excuses, injuries are part of football etc., which I accept is true. But these are nevertheless facts / events beyond TM's control; not the only ones admittedly, there's more to it than that and there have been disappointments elsewhere, but they're true nonetheless. As a consequence I think that's good reason to cut TM some slack for this season and allow him the chance to further develop the squad, get Dack back, another LB, hopefully for BB and / or Gallagher to step up and push for a top 6 berth more aggressively. 

 

All excuses aside, two yes or no questions. Are you happy with our football ? Are you willing to pay for the same next season?

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

4 minutes ago, rigger said:

All excuses aside, two yes or no questions. Are you happy with our football ? Are you willing to pay for the same next season?

That's the bottom line in my opinion, is the football on show at the moment -  1) Worth watching 2) Likely to get us promoted ? I'd say no on both counts.

[rigger]

1 minute ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

That's the bottom line in my opinion, is the football on show at the moment -  1) Worth watching 2) Likely to get us promoted ? I'd say no on both counts.

No on both count for me, but funnily enough promotion to the VAR league is not as high on my wish list as it used to be. For question 2 , I would settle for exciting football.

[Dreams of 1995]

17 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Of course we had injury problems, Dreams, but trying to make out it was just bad luck we couldn’t possibly deal with doesn’t wash. 

We lost Cunningham (who played a handful of games) in October, ample chance to bring in a replacement. Bell and Bennett are not Championship quality.

Dack was injured before the January window opened. 

Holtby is a well known crock, you take a risk in his signing, then injuries for him are par for the course, yet lockdown meant he actually missed relatively few games post Dack.

We have signed copious amounts of central midfielders, so Evans (another crock), whose form has always been inconsistent missing 15 or so games shouldn’t be fatal.
 
The others are niggles. But as we do not buy defensive players, then of course we will always be on the verge of a crisis. You also can’t bemoan bad luck when perennially injured players continue to get injured.

Why didn’t we reinforce in January? A team with real aspirations for the top 6 would’ve done just that. It is fairly obvious that the £12 million undoubtably meant we had no wriggle room budget wise, so that kind of goes back to TM’s poor signings and a lopsided squad he has put together.

Not having money for defensive signings is a trend spanning longer than Mowbray's time here. I keep referring to a brilliant topic on this board which showed our spend on defenders compared to attackers since Venky's came - there isn't even a comparison. It is becoming abundantly clear that money is not there for centre halves, for whatever reason. This again is an issue which extends way above our domestic management team, if you will, and appears to be a direct policy of our funders / owners.

I don't think it would have been wise to sign a replacement for Dack. We had Holtby and Buckley, but nobody expected both of them to face injuries / knocks too. You bring a player in and then over the course of the season when Holtby comes back that player is a wasted wage. It's a very difficult thing to comprehend as a supporter, as we don't see the finances, but signing a player in January might have been the difference between not signing a player in summer. I'm not absolving any blame here but I don't think it is as black and white as what it is being made out.

We still have some deadwood and if we had a healthy budget I'd trust Mowbray again to try and give us that extra push to play offs. I don't suspect we will have much money to spend and that would probably push me more to getting a manager who is more known for getting the best out of what he has.

I think we could have dealt with our squad injuries a little better, and tried a few more of the youth rather than sticking with tried-and-failed players shoehorned into unnatural positions, but I don't think our injuries should just be cast aside when discussing why we didn't achieve the aims the club set out. Once again though, I don't think any fan expected this squad to reach the play offs this season, it was only when Mowbray came out and said that was the aim that we thought about it. In that respect, he's made his own problem.

[Bigdoggsteel]

I think he will always find a way to limit us. He has his strengths, for sure, but the weaknesses he has don't seem fixable. 

He said the other day that he thinks players got carried away with the talk of the play-offs after beating Bristol city. That's on nobody but him. A top manager simply does not allow that to happen, even if bigger prizes are involved. It doesn't reflect well on our lot. Getting carried away with themselves before they had achieved anything. Mowbray gave the same "excuse" last season. How can anyone expect us to go up under him if his team can't even deal with the excitement of being just outside the play offs, let alone actually in the play off positions. Automatic promotion? He wouldn't even prepare the team for that outcome.

We could sneak into the play offs with him, but at this point I don't see any way we will go up under him. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

A top manager would have gotten the players heads down to deliver 2 positive results against Wigan and Barnsely. 

[Mattyblue]

Poor signings, lop sided squad, numerous substandard players, average manager, dysfunctional club.

I certainly didn’t expect the play offs.

Edited July 17, 2020 by Mattyblue

[AllRoverAsia]

 

1

2 hours ago, tomphil said:

6 forwards on the pitch at one time I've read somewhere.

Meanwhile someone on the LT saying he's signed 10 attacking players since he's been here.

You'd think with such bold ambitious football the crowds there and here would have been climbing not receding.

Something doesn't add up, not Tony's fault though his clubs are perennially at a crossroads every summer,.....

Without checking I think Celtic lost that match 4-0 

One of my favourites is Mowbrays classic "I build football clubs" and the very recent "I know where our inconsistency comes from'' or something like that. So do I matey!

Any other manager that we have ever had, ok maybe not King Kenney, would get pelters of sorts for lines like but someone The Legend is immune.

I can accept it more and more based on the belief that he's a barn pot.

[Bigdoggsteel]

I think fans are just afraid and apprehensive about how wrong things could quickly go if they got the next appointment wrong. I mean it is a genuine fear.  

[47er]

4 hours ago, AllRoverAsia said:

On a positive note, we are above PNE in the 10 game form guide league. Mowbray is a Friigin Legend! This will be all over Facebook

 

Impressive!

[Blue blood]

2 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I think fans are just afraid and apprehensive about how wrong things could quickly go if they got the next appointment wrong. I mean it is a genuine fear.  

Absolutely that's the only thing for me that makes me not gutted that TM isn't gone. Not saying he is a good manager but being run by a substandard agency does mean replacing him well will be nigh on impossible. Venkys and the horror show previously are probably key reasons why he is popular with elements of the fan base too. 

In a normal club, or Rovers pre Venkys, everyone would want him out. Look at the stick Sam got for doing a much better job. It always comes down to Venkys and the effect they have on us, one of which is the erosion of standards. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

2 minutes ago, 47er said:

Impressive!

That's about where we'll finish next season with a bit of luck.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Blue blood said:

Absolutely that's the only thing for me that makes me not gutted that TM isn't gone. Not saying he is a good manager but being run by a substandard agency does mean replacing him well will be nigh on impossible. Venkys and the horror show previously are probably key reasons why he is popular with elements of the fan base too. 

In a normal club, or Rovers pre Venkys, everyone would want him out. Look at the stick Sam got for doing a much better job. It always comes down to Venkys and the effect they have on us, one of which is the erosion of standards. 

Ya, 100%. Could be another Coyle/Kean style appointment and everyone knows, they don't fire quickly. 

[AllRoverAsia]

The left-back problem was caused by the injury to Cunningham.

Many including me were of the opinion when that injury occurred that Bell and Williams were not fit for purpose. Even Williams thought so and wanted to play as a CB,

Get facts correct

[Blue blood]

4 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Ya, 100%. Could be another Coyle/Kean style appointment and everyone knows, they don't fire quickly. 

Even the non catastrophic appointments have been poor. Bowyer, Lambert, Appleton and Berg (albeit the latter two were in different times) don't inspire confidence they would do better than TM when finding a replacement. It's hard to muster any enthusiasm for a new manager search given the owners and restrictions in place. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

33 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Not having money for defensive signings is a trend spanning longer than Mowbray's time here. I keep referring to a brilliant topic on this board which showed our spend on defenders compared to attackers since Venky's came - there isn't even a comparison. It is becoming abundantly clear that money is not there for centre halves, for whatever reason. This again is an issue which extends way above our domestic management team, if you will, and appears to be a direct policy of our funders / owners.

I don't think it would have been wise to sign a replacement for Dack. We had Holtby and Buckley, but nobody expected both of them to face injuries / knocks too. You bring a player in and then over the course of the season when Holtby comes back that player is a wasted wage. It's a very difficult thing to comprehend as a supporter, as we don't see the finances, but signing a player in January might have been the difference between not signing a player in summer. I'm not absolving any blame here but I don't think it is as black and white as what it is being made out.

We still have some deadwood and if we had a healthy budget I'd trust Mowbray again to try and give us that extra push to play offs. I don't suspect we will have much money to spend and that would probably push me more to getting a manager who is more known for getting the best out of what he has.

I think we could have dealt with our squad injuries a little better, and tried a few more of the youth rather than sticking with tried-and-failed players shoehorned into unnatural positions, but I don't think our injuries should just be cast aside when discussing why we didn't achieve the aims the club set out. Once again though, I don't think any fan expected this squad to reach the play offs this season, it was only when Mowbray came out and said that was the aim that we thought about it. In that respect, he's made his own problem.

Let's say you've been appointed as the works manager of a large manufacturing company. You get called into a meeting with the higher echelon and they tell you that  1) Production is solely your responsibility. 2)  You can spend some money on new machinery. 3) The money spent on maintaining the building, servicing, repair and maintenance of the machinery has to be kept strictly to minimum. How long do you hang around in that circumstance ? How long do you accept " responsibility without power " ?

Edited July 17, 2020 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Blue blood said:

Even the non catastrophic appointments have been poor. Bowyer, Lambert, Appleton and Berg (albeit the latter two were in different times) don't inspire confidence they would do better than TM when finding a replacement. It's hard to muster any enthusiasm for a new manager search given the owners and restrictions in place. 

Ya, that's it. There has been no previous behaviour from the owners that would suggest they would make an appointment that would improve us, particularly in the current climate.

Then would say Mick McCarthy work for them? Mowbray keeps saying in the last week or 2 he has no idea of the direction we are going in financially, let alone actual budgets. 

[Blue blood]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Ya, that's it. There has been no previous behaviour from the owners that would suggest they would make an appointment that would improve us, particularly in the current climate.

Then would say Mick McCarthy work for them? Mowbray keeps saying in the last week or 2 he has no idea of the direction we are going in financially, let alone actual budgets. 

I'd take McCarthy in a shot but who is his agent? If it's not the ones running us then we have no chance. If he is with them, then I would be hoping that such an appointment would be made and would do that swap in an instant. 

He has multiple promotions on his CV (more than TM) and did very well on a limited budget at Ipswich to keep them in the Championship (contrast TM's £12 million splurge). Players speak well of him (mostly) which means he probably be not too drastic a culture shock for our squad - they need a better mentality but a more friendly approach to raising standards may be the better than a manager like Souness or Roy Keane who is too combustible. 

If he is on the allowed list I would be telling TM to pack his bags.