Tony Mowbray Discussion

[simongarnerisgod]

On 29/11/2020 at 14:54, Blue blood said:

Hate being Scrooge but we need plan B for playing the better teams as the 4-3-3 doesn't, or hasn't yet worked against them. 

That said I am pleased there actually is a plan A which works and suits the majority of our squad. Bereton and Rothwell and Holtby all look much better in this system and long term (assuming  we can keep the bulk of the squad together) it seems a good plan to have. 

We do however have to find a system that causes the better teams problems. Not sure what that is. Perhaps a return to 4-2-3-1? 

 

 

just stick to two banks of four sitting a bit deeper and hit em on the counter with armstrongs pace,i also worry about the 4-3-3,quality sides will exploit the space between the midfield and defence,reading tore us a new one doing exactly that,i don`t think you can play 4-3-3 against everyone

[joey_big_nose]

On 29/11/2020 at 10:16, tomphil said:

If we are winning and doing well i wouldn't be changing things just to fir Dack back in.  We are bigger than 1 player although its not looked that way at times.

It might be a dilemma but the team comes first and no doubt at some point in the future we might be relying on him again. That would signal we haven't moved forwards though.

We do seem to have progressed from a very one dimensional Dack and Graham team to one with half a dozen players who can win a game.

Mowbray has struggled a bit to get us to work, but this year everything seems to be clicking in place.

If we can keep it sustained over the season I think it will be the most comprehensive tactical overhaul of a team I've ever seen at Rovers. Its pretty incredible how utterly different we look to last year. No one's playing the same way really, all have different roles.

[joey_big_nose]

On 29/11/2020 at 14:54, Blue blood said:

Hate being Scrooge but we need plan B for playing the better teams as the 4-3-3 doesn't, or hasn't yet worked against them. 

That said I am pleased there actually is a plan A which works and suits the majority of our squad. Bereton and Rothwell and Holtby all look much better in this system and long term (assuming  we can keep the bulk of the squad together) it seems a good plan to have. 

We do however have to find a system that causes the better teams problems. Not sure what that is. Perhaps a return to 4-2-3-1?

I'm happy to say one of our big vulnerabilities seems solved. Weve been terrible under the long ball, see Cardiff this year or Preston last season, however with Wharton in the team we look a lot more solid against that. Reckon Ayala when fit will also offer that. A big relief. 

That said big problem in our current 433 for me is left back. Against good teams Douglas doesn't have the pace and Bell doesn't have the positioning for a high line. Could do with a better signing there imo.

In terms of an alternative system - looking at our personnel adapting to a counter attacking game should suit us. Quick skillful players are something we have a lot of. 4231 would make sense. You wouldn't even need to change the starting XI.

                          Kaminski

Nyambe.   Lenihan.  Wharton.  Douglas.  

                   Holtby.    Johnson

         Elliot.      Rothwell.    Brereton.  

                       Armstrong 

Maybe the next iteration is to start more conservatively in a 4231 and then change to 433 at the right time in the game? Seems a bit too clever to me though...

Anyway Brentford and Norwich both around the corner do look tricky. Will be interesting to see if we change approach.

Reckon though Mowbray will stick with the 433 and say "you adapt to us" rather than the other way round. And who can blame him really? Only time we've looked poor was in the run of Forest, Watford, Reading, Middlesborough, Swansea and we were missing key players fundamental to our system (Kaminski, Rothwell, Holtby, Armstrong at various times).

Reckon if we have all the above available we can feel confident taking anyone on.

[Blue blood]

Some good thoughts simongarner... and joey. My worry is with both is the players don't quite fit the system. 

Who plays wide (well!) in the midfield bank of 4? And Bereton has struggled as part of the 3 behind the main striker. Plus I'm not sure Rothwell excels in the hole. 

I'm not trying to nit pick as I don't have any answers to this. I can see why trying 4-3-3, a system with some success and suits our players, is worth the gamble. But where it hasn't worked is against the stronger teams. It's a dilemma. 

The point is made that the formation struggles when key men are out of the side but with Covid and injuries can we really rely on our best players to stay fit in order for it to work against the better teams? That said the chances of working will only increase with our better players fit. 

Personally suspect a different system may be the answer but am not sure as yet what it is. 

Edit - thinking about Gally and Armstrong up front that could be the new King Gestede type combo. Still a few midfield issues but it would allow us to defend from the front and give us a few outlets. Maybe worth a shot?

 

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Blue blood

[simongarnerisgod]

 thinking about Gally and Armstrong up front that could be the new King Gestede type combo. Still a few midfield issues but it would allow us to defend from the front and give us a few outlets. Maybe worth a shot?

mowbray has always been reluctant to play with two strikers,though i agree it would work,armstrong or dack playing just behind a striker looking for space could possibly be lethal

[tomphil]

9 hours ago, joey_big_nose said:

We do seem to have progressed from a very one dimensional Dack and Graham team to one with half a dozen players who can win a game.

Mowbray has struggled a bit to get us to work, but this year everything seems to be clicking in place.

If we can keep it sustained over the season I think it will be the most comprehensive tactical overhaul of a team I've ever seen at Rovers. Its pretty incredible how utterly different we look to last year. No one's playing the same way really, all have different roles.

Certainly more pleasant watching a side that looks more balanced and players comfortable in the positions they were presumably recruited to play in. Said it before but if Mowbray took this team up now or next season it would rank as one of the finest BRFC modern time achievements without question.

Thing is though have he just landed on this because of the situation or is it really a planned progression ?  Dack coming back is great but it is also a dilemma but a good one if worked properly. Him, Bennett, Evans etc all being back fit actually worries me when it shouldn't do as the spectre of disjointed formations and shoehorning might rear its head again.

Only time will tell if he really is moving us on but for now perhaps it's better that lads come back in dribs and drabs and cover for other inevitable absences. 

[Eddie]

On 23/11/2020 at 16:06, Blue blood said:

The question I ask myself is do we look any more likely now 3 years on to get promoted then when we first came up. And whilst on paper yes, on the pitch it's a clear no. And if for no other reason than that he needs to go. 

The answer is clearly yes. Anyone saying otherwise is delusional.

The real question is - given the player development, the budget available, and the squad that he has had at his disposal for the last two or three seasons - should we be closer to going up.

[47er]

Just now, tomphil said:

Certainly more pleasant watching a side that looks more balanced and players comfortable in the positions they were presumably recruited to play in. Said it before but if Mowbray took this team up now or next season it would rank as one of the finest BRFC modern time achievements without question.

Thing is though have he just landed on this because of the situation or is it really a planned progression ?  Dack coming back is great but it is also a dilemma but a good one if worked properly. Him, Bennett, Evans etc all being back fit actually worries me when it shouldn't do as the spectre of disjointed formations and shoehorning might rear its head again.

Only time will tell if he really is moving us on but for now perhaps it's better that lads come back in dribs and drabs and cover for other inevitable absences. 

Without big spending though, this side wouldn't stay up. Look at Sheffield Utd.

We are travelling towards a situation where the 3 sides that went up come down again, and, because of parachute payments go straight back up again.

[joey_big_nose]

Just now, tomphil said:

Certainly more pleasant watching a side that looks more balanced and players comfortable in the positions they were presumably recruited to play in. Said it before but if Mowbray took this team up now or next season it would rank as one of the finest BRFC modern time achievements without question.

Thing is though have he just landed on this because of the situation or is it really a planned progression ?  Dack coming back is great but it is also a dilemma but a good one if worked properly. Him, Bennett, Evans etc all being back fit actually worries me when it shouldn't do as the spectre of disjointed formations and shoehorning might rear its head again.

Only time will tell if he really is moving us on but for now perhaps it's better that lads come back in dribs and drabs and cover for other inevitable absences. 

My view is he decided to give 433 a whirl back in May/June and it didn't really look that great (that's when we had Holtby playing as a false 9) but you have to credit he saw the potential of it and stuck with it.

Once he dropped Holtby into midfield, had Rothwell and Brereton on the left and brought Kaminski in to push the whole team up it looks great.

I cant really see how we achieved that without some real foresight, planning and tactical nouse from Mowbray. 

As for how the injured players come back in I would say I think Dack will be able to play across the top three pretty well, and Trav can play either the holding role or right of the midfield three.

But I can't really see where Bennett or Evans fit in. Evans can only really play the holding role, and we have better options there, and Bennett doesnt match any of the roles really.

[joey_big_nose]

4 minutes ago, 47er said:

Without big spending though, this side wouldn't stay up. Look at Sheffield Utd.

We are travelling towards a situation where the 3 sides that went up come down again, and, because of parachute payments go straight back up again.

Sheffield United did stay up though? Finished 9th in Prem.

Edited December 2, 2020 by joey_big_nose

[tomphil]

28 minutes ago, 47er said:

Without big spending though, this side wouldn't stay up. Look at Sheffield Utd.

We are travelling towards a situation where the 3 sides that went up come down again, and, because of parachute payments go straight back up again.

If the near future was us as a yoyo club i'll take it.  Agree this squad would never stay up it would take a bit of up and down to restructure again i suppose. 

[Mashed Potatoes]

24 minutes ago, tomphil said:

If the near future was us as a yoyo club i'll take it.  Agree this squad would never stay up it would take a bit of up and down to restructure again i suppose. 

It took Burnley 3 promotions to stabilise as a PL club - that will be the norm for many clubs

[47er]

1 hour ago, joey_big_nose said:

Sheffield United did stay up though? Finished 9th in Prem.

Well that's obviously true but unable to sustain it. I did say "we are moving towards etc"

[CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber]

Tony was on fire in the LT yesterday:

"I like Dan Pike, he's an earthy footballer.." 

Wonderful stuff 

[JHRover]

On 02/12/2020 at 09:54, Mashed Potatoes said:

It took Burnley 3 promotions to stabilise as a PL club - that will be the norm for many clubs

We should be at an advantage to the likes of Burnley. Bigger club, a history of PL football to call upon, already have the training ground, academy, stadium whereas they didn't when they went up. Dare I say it we also have owners with the resources to keep us up whereas they never have had.

[Blue blood]

1 hour ago, JHRover said:

We should be at an advantage to the likes of Burnley. Bigger club, a history of PL football to call upon, already have the training ground, academy, stadium whereas they didn't when they went up. Dare I say it we also have owners with the resources to keep us up whereas they never have had.

No because they won't spend money on defenders for starters. 

Outside of the resources issue the owners also hugely hinder by their daft set up. 

[Guest]

I seem to remember a lot of people claiming Hughton would fire Forest into the Top 6, a few going as far to say that Hughton will easily finish above Mowbray with Rovers. Same sentiments towards Neil Warnock and his Boro side. We're currently ahead of both and one of which is in a serious relegation dog fight! 

[Admiral Nelsen]

3 minutes ago, JoeH said:

I seem to remember a lot of people claiming Hughton would fire Forest into the Top 6, a few going as far to say that Hughton will easily finish above Mowbray with Rovers. Same sentiments towards Neil Warnock and his Boro side. We're currently ahead of both and one of which is in a serious relegation dog fight! 

To be fair, Middlesbrough have improved plenty since Colin has showed up there. Still well in the hunt for a top 6 place and it wouldn't shock me if they're competing for the automatics in the spring. 

Have to admit I'm surprised that Hughton hasn't had more of an obvious impact. He does seem to have tightened up their defence, but points haven't followed. Might be different once they get Grabban back.

[roversfan99]

38 minutes ago, JoeH said:

I seem to remember a lot of people claiming Hughton would fire Forest into the Top 6, a few going as far to say that Hughton will easily finish above Mowbray with Rovers. Same sentiments towards Neil Warnock and his Boro side. We're currently ahead of both and one of which is in a serious relegation dog fight! 

To be fair, the reason that both were lauded is because both have track records with repeated success at this level.

Warnock is doing a good job, he took over as a firefighting job last season to keep them up and having spent very little and in a short term span, he has got them on the same points as us.

Hughton has started surprisingly slowly at Forest but his track record means that it would be a surprise if it continued long term.

[chaddyrovers]

13 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Hughton has started surprisingly slowly at Forest but his track record means that it would be a surprise if it continued long term.

I'm not surprised by his slow start. The squad isnt to his likely in my opinion. Alot of players there. Wont be easy to get rid

I hope Forest owner werent expect playoffs when he joined. 

[alex l]

Credit to TM today, I can't have been the only one thinking he'd thrown in the towel when Arma and Rothwell went off, but it got a result with the subs doing their bit, same as in mid week. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

54 minutes ago, alex l said:

Credit to TM today, I can't have been the only one thinking he'd thrown in the towel when Arma and Rothwell went off, but it got a result with the subs doing their bit, same as in mid week. 

I agree, I'm not his biggest fan but I thought he did well today. It's ok people moaning about Buckley having to go to right back but what were our other options ? Maybe Davenport could have played there but I wouldn't have fancied Johnson there, or Trybull for that matter. Downing would have been on the wrong side. Maybe drop Johnson back to centre half and keep Nyambe at right back.

[Ulrich]

Anyone else thinking that TM might get us into the top 6?  

On Buckley, his options were limited and wisely, I think, he chose to move fewer pieces. Anyways which one of us wouldn't have biten the football gods hands off for a draw after the penalty incident. 

However perhaps losing Lenihan for a few matches will see Johnson step into the role. If he can rally them to that degree most matches, I'd be sorely tempted to have club and match captains, with Johnson leading the lads during games. Hopefully Lenihans nose would not be too put out. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Has Johnson ever played centre half? I don't think he needs to be captain to lead the team. In fact his shit housing probably doesn't fit well with being captain. Leave him too it. Although he is probably the stand out candidate with Lenihan out. Ayala maybe? Or left field suggestion, give it to Nyambe. 

Edited December 5, 2020 by Bigdoggsteel

[bboy]

It's almost uncool to congratulate TM but he certainly deserved it today.

He managed that 2nd half very well. I believe his thinking of Buckley at RB was he'd be similar to JRC in that position and out of the 4 we had at the back at the time could offer the long pass out. 

However his instant reaction to tactics following Brentford's final subs decided our game.