Tony Mowbray Discussion

[chaddyrovers]

19 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Football is becoming like Rugby League were the strength of your bench can dictate the outcome of the game.

Hasnt it been like this for few past seasons? 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

Hasnt it been like this for few past seasons? 

Obviously having more subs this season has made that more evident.

[Tom]

The squad has a nice balance to it, the long game recruitment is starting to look really good thanks to Gallagher and Brereton now delivering and the shape we are adopting.

Armstrong firing on all cylinders.

Having the likes of Dolan and Elliott along with Brereton and Gallagher all vying for 2 wide forward positions is a lovely little battle.

Then you have the likes of Holtby, Rothwell, Dack, Trybull, Johnson, Travis and co options centrally.

Still think we are relatively low on options at the back but Williams and Wharton are proving (when fit) to be decent options with Nyambe and Douglas great first choice full backs.

Kaminski looks inspired, his presence seems to really steady and organise those in front of him.

Huge credit due there, I’ll be surprised if we go up still but I think top 6 is now something we should be disappointed if we don’t achieve with what we have. I don’t think we’ll be far off either 

[Blue blood]

Hate being Scrooge but we need plan B for playing the better teams as the 4-3-3 doesn't, or hasn't yet worked against them. 

That said I am pleased there actually is a plan A which works and suits the majority of our squad. Bereton and Rothwell and Holtby all look much better in this system and long term (assuming  we can keep the bulk of the squad together) it seems a good plan to have. 

We do however have to find a system that causes the better teams problems. Not sure what that is. Perhaps a return to 4-2-3-1? 

 

 

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

28 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

We do however have to find a system that causes the better teams problems. Not sure what that is. Perhaps a return to 4-2-3-1? 

                   Kaminski

Nymabe   Lenihan Wharton Douglas

          Travis Holtby Rothwell

                Dack  Elliott

                 Armstrong

 

Obviously you could mix and match the players but it might be worth a do. 

[chaddyrovers]

 

[simongarnerisgod]

On 29/11/2020 at 14:54, Blue blood said:

Hate being Scrooge but we need plan B for playing the better teams as the 4-3-3 doesn't, or hasn't yet worked against them. 

That said I am pleased there actually is a plan A which works and suits the majority of our squad. Bereton and Rothwell and Holtby all look much better in this system and long term (assuming  we can keep the bulk of the squad together) it seems a good plan to have. 

We do however have to find a system that causes the better teams problems. Not sure what that is. Perhaps a return to 4-2-3-1? 

 

 

just stick to two banks of four sitting a bit deeper and hit em on the counter with armstrongs pace,i also worry about the 4-3-3,quality sides will exploit the space between the midfield and defence,reading tore us a new one doing exactly that,i don`t think you can play 4-3-3 against everyone

[joey_big_nose]

On 29/11/2020 at 10:16, tomphil said:

If we are winning and doing well i wouldn't be changing things just to fir Dack back in.  We are bigger than 1 player although its not looked that way at times.

It might be a dilemma but the team comes first and no doubt at some point in the future we might be relying on him again. That would signal we haven't moved forwards though.

We do seem to have progressed from a very one dimensional Dack and Graham team to one with half a dozen players who can win a game.

Mowbray has struggled a bit to get us to work, but this year everything seems to be clicking in place.

If we can keep it sustained over the season I think it will be the most comprehensive tactical overhaul of a team I've ever seen at Rovers. Its pretty incredible how utterly different we look to last year. No one's playing the same way really, all have different roles.

[joey_big_nose]

On 29/11/2020 at 14:54, Blue blood said:

Hate being Scrooge but we need plan B for playing the better teams as the 4-3-3 doesn't, or hasn't yet worked against them. 

That said I am pleased there actually is a plan A which works and suits the majority of our squad. Bereton and Rothwell and Holtby all look much better in this system and long term (assuming  we can keep the bulk of the squad together) it seems a good plan to have. 

We do however have to find a system that causes the better teams problems. Not sure what that is. Perhaps a return to 4-2-3-1?

I'm happy to say one of our big vulnerabilities seems solved. Weve been terrible under the long ball, see Cardiff this year or Preston last season, however with Wharton in the team we look a lot more solid against that. Reckon Ayala when fit will also offer that. A big relief. 

That said big problem in our current 433 for me is left back. Against good teams Douglas doesn't have the pace and Bell doesn't have the positioning for a high line. Could do with a better signing there imo.

In terms of an alternative system - looking at our personnel adapting to a counter attacking game should suit us. Quick skillful players are something we have a lot of. 4231 would make sense. You wouldn't even need to change the starting XI.

                          Kaminski

Nyambe.   Lenihan.  Wharton.  Douglas.  

                   Holtby.    Johnson

         Elliot.      Rothwell.    Brereton.  

                       Armstrong 

Maybe the next iteration is to start more conservatively in a 4231 and then change to 433 at the right time in the game? Seems a bit too clever to me though...

Anyway Brentford and Norwich both around the corner do look tricky. Will be interesting to see if we change approach.

Reckon though Mowbray will stick with the 433 and say "you adapt to us" rather than the other way round. And who can blame him really? Only time we've looked poor was in the run of Forest, Watford, Reading, Middlesborough, Swansea and we were missing key players fundamental to our system (Kaminski, Rothwell, Holtby, Armstrong at various times).

Reckon if we have all the above available we can feel confident taking anyone on.

[Blue blood]

Some good thoughts simongarner... and joey. My worry is with both is the players don't quite fit the system. 

Who plays wide (well!) in the midfield bank of 4? And Bereton has struggled as part of the 3 behind the main striker. Plus I'm not sure Rothwell excels in the hole. 

I'm not trying to nit pick as I don't have any answers to this. I can see why trying 4-3-3, a system with some success and suits our players, is worth the gamble. But where it hasn't worked is against the stronger teams. It's a dilemma. 

The point is made that the formation struggles when key men are out of the side but with Covid and injuries can we really rely on our best players to stay fit in order for it to work against the better teams? That said the chances of working will only increase with our better players fit. 

Personally suspect a different system may be the answer but am not sure as yet what it is. 

Edit - thinking about Gally and Armstrong up front that could be the new King Gestede type combo. Still a few midfield issues but it would allow us to defend from the front and give us a few outlets. Maybe worth a shot?

 

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Blue blood

[simongarnerisgod]

 thinking about Gally and Armstrong up front that could be the new King Gestede type combo. Still a few midfield issues but it would allow us to defend from the front and give us a few outlets. Maybe worth a shot?

mowbray has always been reluctant to play with two strikers,though i agree it would work,armstrong or dack playing just behind a striker looking for space could possibly be lethal

[tomphil]

9 hours ago, joey_big_nose said:

We do seem to have progressed from a very one dimensional Dack and Graham team to one with half a dozen players who can win a game.

Mowbray has struggled a bit to get us to work, but this year everything seems to be clicking in place.

If we can keep it sustained over the season I think it will be the most comprehensive tactical overhaul of a team I've ever seen at Rovers. Its pretty incredible how utterly different we look to last year. No one's playing the same way really, all have different roles.

Certainly more pleasant watching a side that looks more balanced and players comfortable in the positions they were presumably recruited to play in. Said it before but if Mowbray took this team up now or next season it would rank as one of the finest BRFC modern time achievements without question.

Thing is though have he just landed on this because of the situation or is it really a planned progression ?  Dack coming back is great but it is also a dilemma but a good one if worked properly. Him, Bennett, Evans etc all being back fit actually worries me when it shouldn't do as the spectre of disjointed formations and shoehorning might rear its head again.

Only time will tell if he really is moving us on but for now perhaps it's better that lads come back in dribs and drabs and cover for other inevitable absences. 

[Eddie]

On 23/11/2020 at 16:06, Blue blood said:

The question I ask myself is do we look any more likely now 3 years on to get promoted then when we first came up. And whilst on paper yes, on the pitch it's a clear no. And if for no other reason than that he needs to go. 

The answer is clearly yes. Anyone saying otherwise is delusional.

The real question is - given the player development, the budget available, and the squad that he has had at his disposal for the last two or three seasons - should we be closer to going up.

[47er]

Just now, tomphil said:

Certainly more pleasant watching a side that looks more balanced and players comfortable in the positions they were presumably recruited to play in. Said it before but if Mowbray took this team up now or next season it would rank as one of the finest BRFC modern time achievements without question.

Thing is though have he just landed on this because of the situation or is it really a planned progression ?  Dack coming back is great but it is also a dilemma but a good one if worked properly. Him, Bennett, Evans etc all being back fit actually worries me when it shouldn't do as the spectre of disjointed formations and shoehorning might rear its head again.

Only time will tell if he really is moving us on but for now perhaps it's better that lads come back in dribs and drabs and cover for other inevitable absences. 

Without big spending though, this side wouldn't stay up. Look at Sheffield Utd.

We are travelling towards a situation where the 3 sides that went up come down again, and, because of parachute payments go straight back up again.

[joey_big_nose]

Just now, tomphil said:

Certainly more pleasant watching a side that looks more balanced and players comfortable in the positions they were presumably recruited to play in. Said it before but if Mowbray took this team up now or next season it would rank as one of the finest BRFC modern time achievements without question.

Thing is though have he just landed on this because of the situation or is it really a planned progression ?  Dack coming back is great but it is also a dilemma but a good one if worked properly. Him, Bennett, Evans etc all being back fit actually worries me when it shouldn't do as the spectre of disjointed formations and shoehorning might rear its head again.

Only time will tell if he really is moving us on but for now perhaps it's better that lads come back in dribs and drabs and cover for other inevitable absences. 

My view is he decided to give 433 a whirl back in May/June and it didn't really look that great (that's when we had Holtby playing as a false 9) but you have to credit he saw the potential of it and stuck with it.

Once he dropped Holtby into midfield, had Rothwell and Brereton on the left and brought Kaminski in to push the whole team up it looks great.

I cant really see how we achieved that without some real foresight, planning and tactical nouse from Mowbray. 

As for how the injured players come back in I would say I think Dack will be able to play across the top three pretty well, and Trav can play either the holding role or right of the midfield three.

But I can't really see where Bennett or Evans fit in. Evans can only really play the holding role, and we have better options there, and Bennett doesnt match any of the roles really.

[joey_big_nose]

4 minutes ago, 47er said:

Without big spending though, this side wouldn't stay up. Look at Sheffield Utd.

We are travelling towards a situation where the 3 sides that went up come down again, and, because of parachute payments go straight back up again.

Sheffield United did stay up though? Finished 9th in Prem.

Edited December 2, 2020 by joey_big_nose

[tomphil]

28 minutes ago, 47er said:

Without big spending though, this side wouldn't stay up. Look at Sheffield Utd.

We are travelling towards a situation where the 3 sides that went up come down again, and, because of parachute payments go straight back up again.

If the near future was us as a yoyo club i'll take it.  Agree this squad would never stay up it would take a bit of up and down to restructure again i suppose. 

[Mashed Potatoes]

24 minutes ago, tomphil said:

If the near future was us as a yoyo club i'll take it.  Agree this squad would never stay up it would take a bit of up and down to restructure again i suppose. 

It took Burnley 3 promotions to stabilise as a PL club - that will be the norm for many clubs

[47er]

1 hour ago, joey_big_nose said:

Sheffield United did stay up though? Finished 9th in Prem.

Well that's obviously true but unable to sustain it. I did say "we are moving towards etc"

[CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber]

Tony was on fire in the LT yesterday:

"I like Dan Pike, he's an earthy footballer.." 

Wonderful stuff 

[JHRover]

On 02/12/2020 at 09:54, Mashed Potatoes said:

It took Burnley 3 promotions to stabilise as a PL club - that will be the norm for many clubs

We should be at an advantage to the likes of Burnley. Bigger club, a history of PL football to call upon, already have the training ground, academy, stadium whereas they didn't when they went up. Dare I say it we also have owners with the resources to keep us up whereas they never have had.

[Blue blood]

1 hour ago, JHRover said:

We should be at an advantage to the likes of Burnley. Bigger club, a history of PL football to call upon, already have the training ground, academy, stadium whereas they didn't when they went up. Dare I say it we also have owners with the resources to keep us up whereas they never have had.

No because they won't spend money on defenders for starters. 

Outside of the resources issue the owners also hugely hinder by their daft set up. 

[Guest]

I seem to remember a lot of people claiming Hughton would fire Forest into the Top 6, a few going as far to say that Hughton will easily finish above Mowbray with Rovers. Same sentiments towards Neil Warnock and his Boro side. We're currently ahead of both and one of which is in a serious relegation dog fight! 

[Admiral Nelsen]

3 minutes ago, JoeH said:

I seem to remember a lot of people claiming Hughton would fire Forest into the Top 6, a few going as far to say that Hughton will easily finish above Mowbray with Rovers. Same sentiments towards Neil Warnock and his Boro side. We're currently ahead of both and one of which is in a serious relegation dog fight! 

To be fair, Middlesbrough have improved plenty since Colin has showed up there. Still well in the hunt for a top 6 place and it wouldn't shock me if they're competing for the automatics in the spring. 

Have to admit I'm surprised that Hughton hasn't had more of an obvious impact. He does seem to have tightened up their defence, but points haven't followed. Might be different once they get Grabban back.

[roversfan99]

38 minutes ago, JoeH said:

I seem to remember a lot of people claiming Hughton would fire Forest into the Top 6, a few going as far to say that Hughton will easily finish above Mowbray with Rovers. Same sentiments towards Neil Warnock and his Boro side. We're currently ahead of both and one of which is in a serious relegation dog fight! 

To be fair, the reason that both were lauded is because both have track records with repeated success at this level.

Warnock is doing a good job, he took over as a firefighting job last season to keep them up and having spent very little and in a short term span, he has got them on the same points as us.

Hughton has started surprisingly slowly at Forest but his track record means that it would be a surprise if it continued long term.