Tony Mowbray Discussion

[Ewood Ace]

Just now, JoeH said:

Not trying to spin things. I believe in 2020 that Tony Mowbray is better equipped to get Blackburn Rovers promoted than outdated tactics that coaches like Neil Warnock and Chris Hughton provide. Forest have a top championship side on paper, and he should have them doing a lot better than he currently does. Warnock is doing what Warnock does with Boro, and it's working to an extent, but as he ages and football moves forward, every club Warnock goes to does a little bit less than the last one he visited.

The fact that Warnock is still managing and getting results 40 years after starting in management just shows that he is capable of adapting and moving on. In fact since Mowbray got his sole promotion from this division Warnock has achieved a further 2 promotions from it.

[Guest]

Just now, Ewood Ace said:

The fact that Warnock is still managing and getting results 40 years after starting in management just shows that he is capable of adapting and moving on. In fact since Mowbray got his sole promotion from this division Warnock has achieved a further 2 promotions from it.

And as I said. With every new club Warnock goes to, his abilities lessen a little more. I can't see the top 6 for Boro, they simply don't have the goals in their team. Defensively they're solid but they'd need a BIG January window.

[Ewood Ace]

Just now, JoeH said:

And as I said. With every new club Warnock goes to, his abilities lessen a little more. I can't see the top 6 for Boro, they simply don't have the goals in their team. Defensively they're solid but they'd need a BIG January window.

The last club Warnock visited he achieved promotion in his first full season and at his current club he was brought into keep them up and did it with ease, something Mowbray failed to do with us. If Warnock doesn't make top 6 in his first season surely that doesn't make him a failure as surely you need 4-5 years to build and go on a journey to break into the top 6.

I'd also say that Middlesbrough are the best side that we have played this season they played us off the park at Ewood and really deserved all 3 points.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Ewood Ace said:

If Warnock doesn't make top 6 in his first season surely that doesn't make him a failure as surely you need 4-5 years to build and go on a journey to break into the top 6.

He doesn't have 4-5 years left. Anybody expecting to go on a long term journey with a coach who's obviously going to retire is kidding themselves. Baffling me that Eddie Howe isn't somewhere yet.

[JHRover]

10 minutes ago, JoeH said:

They certainly did. Hughton and Warnock both touted by several to be nailed on play-off finishers. We'll see if that comes true.

I don't get it. I really don't. There's not a manager out there coming to Ewood Park who's going to do a better job. We're getting 14 goals in 14 games out of Adam Armstrong, Mowbray has signed and developed several key players for our side. We're progressing younger players and our squad transfer market value hasn't been this high since our days in the Premier League.

For me Sam Gallagher is the only major mishap. Brereton is coming good and only looks to be improving too. I just don't know what kind of manager could come in and "break the glass" ceiling with our team. Surely what we're seeing from this Rovers XI is the best we can get out of them?

In my opinion anyway.

All of what you put forward on Mowbray here may well be true. But I don't judge a manager on how players develop or what their theoretical transfer values are. I judge a manager first on results and league positions.

Mowbray has a lot of work to do to persuade me that he is capable of hauling us to 6th or higher never mind keep us there.

For me this season so far has been a rehash of previous years. Some nice football, impressive results, yet inconsistencies, perennial mid table position, always a few results away from getting there.

This is Mowbray's finished product and vision. I'm not sure why he deserves longer at it if we don't deliver this season.

If your vision for the club is to be the nearly men, develop players and play nice football then we can stick at it but I want to see evidence that we are making serious progress towards promotion.

I look at O'Neill at Stoke as an example of how a top manager operates and expect Hughton will do similar for Forest next season. 

[K-Hod]

Are we really using people’s past views to say I told you so about a manager that’s been in the hot seat for a whopping two months? Warnock is probably as good of a championship manager as there has ever been, closely followed by Mick McCarthy. Hughton isn’t at that level, but he’s had more joy in this league than Mowbray.
The style of football argument is a bit weak. The only style of football anyone should be concerned with is one that results in winning football matches....

[Ewood Ace]

Just now, JoeH said:

He doesn't have 4-5 years left. Anybody expecting to go on a long term journey with a coach who's obviously going to retire is kidding themselves. Baffling me that Eddie Howe isn't somewhere yet.

Warnock will probably go on managing until they drag him out in a box. You clearly don't understand how winning promotion works you don't just go in and do it straight away you have to build, develop and go on a journey over a number of seasons in mid table.

[DE.]

4 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

Are we really using people’s past views to say I told you so about a manager that’s been in the hot seat for a whopping two months? Warnock is probably as good of a championship manager as there has ever been, closely followed by Mick McCarthy. Hughton isn’t at that level, but he’s had more joy in this league than Mowbray.
The style of football argument is a bit weak. The only style of football anyone should be concerned with is one that results in winning football matches....

Absolutely. Hughton has clearly been a more successful manager than Mowbray in recent years, it isn't even a contest. To suggest no manager could come here and do better than get us to mid-table is nonsense imo. 

With TM it is always theoretical. At the very least we need a playoff finish this season to prove we are genuinely moving forward. Otherwise we are simply at the same level we were under Bowyer - a man with far less experience than Mowbray. 

I am encouraged by a lot of what I've seen this season - but we are still yet to beat any of the teams above us. There's always some kind of hard luck story - but when it happens over and over again it isn't bad luck, it's a mentality issue that needs to be addressed. If we are able to address that then a corner may be turned.

[Beanie01289]

1 hour ago, DE. said:

Absolutely. Hughton has clearly been a more successful manager than Mowbray in recent years, it isn't even a contest. To suggest no manager could come here and do better than get us to mid-table is nonsense imo. 

With TM it is always theoretical. At the very least we need a playoff finish this season to prove we are genuinely moving forward. Otherwise we are simply at the same level we were under Bowyer - a man with far less experience than Mowbray. 

I am encouraged by a lot of what I've seen this season - but we are still yet to beat any of the teams above us. There's always some kind of hard luck story - but when it happens over and over again it isn't bad luck, it's a mentality issue that needs to be addressed. If we are able to address that then a corner may be turned.

Were Preston and millwall not both above us when we beat them?

[DE.]

3 minutes ago, Beanie01289 said:

Were Preston and millwall not both above us when we beat them?

I meant above us right now, but from a historical basis of when we were lower in the table, sure. I would still want to see us beat a team in the top six, personally, before feeling confident that we can sustain a challenge for those positions. In past seasons we struggled with beating the lesser teams in the division, but so far this season it's more the other way around. One positive I do take from our games against the better clubs is that we have been competitive even if drawing/losing. If we had looked overmatched and overpowered then I'd be feeling a lot less hopeful, but for the most part we've looked on par with these teams, just unable to beat them. 

Bristol City will be a good test as unlike Preston or Millwall I expect them to be firmly in the mix towards the end of the season. 

[philipl]

Had to scroll up to see what thread I was on.

Hughton has never been my cup of tea. Am I correct that his only win with Forest was that scabby last minute deflected effort at Ewood?

Edited December 7, 2020 by philipl

[philipl]

I know everyone hated Mowbray talking about a long term 5 windows project to get us into the top 6.

Well here we are after 5 windows at the end of his "long term".

Quite honestly this season hasn't been bad so far irrespective of absences. 

We now enter a mini league of crocks - Rovers, Bristol City and Norwich City.

I fancy us to do pretty well with our squad players against their's. And if we do, it will be Chris Who? ton on here.

Ps where is the edit button for when I submit on my mobile mistake?

[DE.]

21 minutes ago, philipl said:

Ps where is the edit button for when I submit on my mobile mistake?

Tap the three little dots in the top right of your post and various options, including to edit, should appear.

[roversfan99]

3 hours ago, JoeH said:

So we're all still adamant that Chris Hughton's a better manager than Mowbray. Baffling me. Hughton's football is prehistoric in 2020, at least Mowbray puts out a team to attack. Let's see if Hughton manages anything with Forest, I highly doubt he's going to. They've got some top players for this level and I think he should be doing a lot better with Grabban, Taylor, Lolley, Samba & more at his disposal. 

I don't understand this modern day phenomenon whereas if you dont press, pass it out from the back and try to keep the ball, it is assumed that the tactic is outdated. Amidst the media there is this desperation to paint out that there is a correct way to play football, the correct way in the 50s, the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, the 00s, the 10s, now and forever is the one that puts the most points on the board. Would you swap our position with Norwich, we have scored 10 more goals and have 6 less points.

For all of Mowbrays fancy new tactics, his flying wing backs, his 4-3-3, his box midfielders, his inside forwards, his false 9's etc etc, the only time we know that they have actually worked is when we actually get into the top 6, if we fail to do that he wont get any extra kudos from me regarding "trying to play the right way" because the right way is not necessarily always the most attractive way to the neutrals. 

Hughton has started slowly at Forest and indeed he may not even be successful long term but people suggest and big him up because he has a track record of achieving promotions and top 6 finishes in the last decade, so based on probability his appointment is more likely than most managers to achieve success. Same with Warnock. The nonsense about "prehistoric" tactics is further disproved by the fact that teams he has managed have scored more goals than before or after his appointment.

[JacknOry]

4 hours ago, JoeH said:

They certainly did. Hughton and Warnock both touted by several to be nailed on play-off finishers. We'll see if that comes true.

I don't get it. I really don't. There's not a manager out there coming to Ewood Park who's going to do a better job. We're getting 14 goals in 14 games out of Adam Armstrong, Mowbray has signed and developed several key players for our side. We're progressing younger players and our squad transfer market value hasn't been this high since our days in the Premier League.

For me Sam Gallagher is the only major mishap. Brereton is coming good and only looks to be improving too. I just don't know what kind of manager could come in and "break the glass" ceiling with our team. Surely what we're seeing from this Rovers XI is the best we can get out of them?

In my opinion anyway.

Pep? Klopp? Fergie? Mourinho - come on dude. There is not a better manager out there?

[LDRover]

5 hours ago, K-Hod said:

Are we really using people’s past views to say I told you so about a manager that’s been in the hot seat for a whopping two months? Warnock is probably as good of a championship manager as there has ever been, closely followed by Mick McCarthy. Hughton isn’t at that level, but he’s had more joy in this league than Mowbray.
The style of football argument is a bit weak. The only style of football anyone should be concerned with is one that results in winning football matches....

More worrying that the comparisons are being made based on subjective evidence on style and a non appearance in the top 6, never mind top 2.

I don't mind the 'I told you so' mentality, but it needs to be done when something has been achieved. Especially when comparing to proven winners.

[tomphil]

A few good results and just like when there's a couple of bad one's some lose the plot it seems.

He isn't a bad manager by any stretch but he hasn't done anything yet to prove he's a great one either.

Guys who've got clubs to the Prem in recent times without unlimited backing are clearly above Mowbray in the ratings stakes, whatever their style. Bananas to suggest otherwise imo, however what he has been is a good fit for this club in this current era.

Whether some of the others would've been who knows but if it's promotion you REALLY want you'd have been safer putting money on the Hughtons and Warnocks of this world.

Edited December 7, 2020 by tomphil

[47er]

7 hours ago, JoeH said:

I believe

Because you believe it doesn't make it so. That's your opinion and its fair enough, but the part that irks is where you are astonished that others don't agree.

[47er]

7 hours ago, JoeH said:

I don't get it. I really don't. There's not a manager out there coming to Ewood Park who's going to do a better job.

You don't know that either. Its just your view.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Ewood Ace said:

You clearly don't understand how winning promotion works you don't just go in and do it straight away you have to build, develop and go on a journey over a number of seasons in mid table.

A little like the journey we're on?

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, 47er said:

You don't know that either. Its just your view.

Of course it's just my view, I didn't suggest otherwise

[47er]

29 minutes ago, 47er said:

the part that irks is where you are astonished that others don't agree.

 

[JBiz]

12 hours ago, tomphil said:

A few good results and just like when there's a couple of bad one's some lose the plot it seems.

He isn't a bad manager by any stretch but he hasn't done anything yet to prove he's a great one either.

Guys who've got clubs to the Prem in recent times without unlimited backing are clearly above Mowbray in the ratings stakes, whatever their style. Bananas to suggest otherwise imo, however what he has been is a good fit for this club in this current era.

Whether some of the others would've been who knows but if it's promotion you REALLY want you'd have been safer putting money on the Hughtons and Warnocks of this world.

For two reasons I’d call him a great manager; firstly, by helping us to avoid a seemingly nailed on stint in the third tier, albeit with a decent wage and transfer budget and academy, yet Sunderland and others prove this isn’t simple.

Second reason is the gradual improvement of expectations, back in the championship. This (for me) comes an overall approach to improving team, training, facilities etc This is helping our young players take the step up into the team, utilising Damien Johnson as a first team coach is big part of this planning and development. He’s also recruited reasonably well, and responded tactically to issues with injuries.

In terms of Warnock / Hughton, it’s hard to disagree that they’re more successful managers at this level in terms promotion / achievements.

There’s scope to discuss their individual impact for us though - Warnock instead of Coyle at the time would’ve been a no-brainier, but would he improve the academy to first team cohesion, and put other building blocks in place the club desperately needed? Not sure. Would’ve been a lot better than the reprobate Coyle, that’s for sure.

In terms of Hughton, no doubt in his class and quality as a manager, he’s essentially been a decent premier league manager and has had decent success, albeit not enough to keep clubs mid table. In terms of championship level;

Title with Newcastle in first season on playoffs (NUFC relegated season before)

Play off defeat with Birmingham (BFC relegated season before)

Promotion with Brighton at second attempt - Brighton had previously been in three out of 4 play offs (season before he joined, remember “poo gate” vs Palace?)

2 out of 3 promotions, both with heavily fancied and financed teams - I would expect Forest to be his most difficult test to date.
 

Would he be a good appointment for us? I think so, but I don’t think he would’ve got us promoted to the prem yet, as his CV suggests that’s only really likely with a top budget. Warnock is the one more likely to get unfashionable, un fancied teams nearer - but I think well past his best.

Funnily enough, for me, probably still one of the best choices for manager, for a team like us.... we sacked in 2010 to start “the bad times” off...!

 

[47er]

He's never a great manager. That is way over the top. 

[Eddie]

I've had my moments doubting Mowbray, but have mostly been in the 'back him' camp, but to call him a great manager is ridiculous. That isn't a knock on what he's done here or his career, but great has to be reserved for managers that are genuinely...great...