Tony Mowbray Discussion

[47er]

7 hours ago, Paul Mani said:

Do tell us how it should be pal? You seem very knowledgeable...

I thought I just did "pal".

Many knowledgeable fans on this site. Perhaps you've had thoughts of your own from time to time?

Doesn't mean I'm chasing his job though! 

[Sparks Rover]

On 25/08/2019 at 20:13, chaddyrovers said:

Gallagher has done more than enough to warrant his place. He worked his socks off in every game. He never stop working back or getting forward.

 

This could describe Jason Lowe every week

[JBiz]

7 hours ago, Sparks Rover said:

This could describe Jason Lowe every week

6 games into his second spell and JL comparisons comes out.

At least you didn’t say Varney.

[tomphil]

Tin hat on - Gallagher will get 6 to 10 goals this season if he could score here under Coyle/Mowbray in the relegation season he'll find his feet sooner or later.

[Bigdoggsteel]

8 hours ago, Sparks Rover said:

This could describe Jason Lowe every week

Ya, but Gallagher clearly has far more about him than Lowe.  12 goals the season we went down alone is more of a contribution than Lowe made in all his time at the club. 

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, Harry The Bass said:

6 games into his second spell and JL comparisons comes out.

At least you didn’t say Varney.

Doesnt look like a comparison to me, more that the fact that Gallagher worked hard isnt enough to justify a place in the team.

Look at Wilders comments over the weekend about work rate not being something to applaud. 

[JBiz]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

Doesnt look like a comparison to me, more that the fact that Gallagher worked hard isnt enough to justify a place in the team.

Look at Wilders comments over the weekend about work rate not being something to applaud. 

Hard work is a pre-requisite, however I would disagree that’s all we’ve seen from Gallagher.

Strength, Power, Pace for a big man, aerial dominance, constant pressing, linking with overlap or the other attackers...

Was the expectation instant Graham replacement? I personally think signing young forwards should guarantee patience, and that’s why I felt a 6 game in “sweeping criticism” was another typical BRFCSism you’ll only ever hear here!

[DE.]

8 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Tin hat on - Gallagher will get 6 to 10 goals this season if he could score here under Coyle/Mowbray in the relegation season he'll find his feet sooner or later.

A different beast I'm afraid. Coyle's gung ho style meant we scored plenty of goals but conceded a ton at the back too. This was technically true of Mowbray last season but the goals were largely concentrated around Graham and Dack, not our wide players. This season we aren't anywhere near as effective as an attacking force but there are signs of improving defensively. 

Under Coyle Gallagher scored 10 in 31 matches, with 3 assists. Under Mowbray it was 1 goal in 13 appearances with 1 assist. Overall when working with Mowbray Gallagher has 18 apps, 1 goal, 1 assist. So, it would take quite a turnaround of form for him to get to 6 let alone 10 goals. Not saying it's impossible but there is no history of Gallagher scoring or creating goals under this manager. Although the same could be said for more or less every player in our team save for Graham and Dack.

[JBiz]

@DE.

Do you not think stretching the 13 and 6 with 2 seasons gap in the middle as a bit muddling - especially when trying to back a theory Gallagher isn’t going to score goals for Mowbray?

Surely, and I don’t see how it’s possible to disagree with this; 2 different scenarios, 2 different teams, 2 different Sam Gallaghers.

Has anyone considered we might be slightly defensively better because he’s also now defending the box on set pieces? Just a thought.

[Maji]

23 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Tin hat on - Gallagher will get 6 to 10 goals this season if he could score here under Coyle/Mowbray in the relegation season he'll find his feet sooner or later.

So 800 to 500K a goal, bargain ?

[DE.]

Just now, Harry The Bass said:

@DE.

Do you not think stretching the 13 and 6 with 2 seasons gap in the middle as a bit muddling - especially when trying to back a theory Gallagher isn’t going to score goals for Mowbray?

Surely, and I don’t see how it’s possible to disagree with this; 2 different scenarios, 2 different teams, 2 different Sam Gallaghers.

Has anyone considered we might be slightly defensively better because he’s also now defending the box on set pieces? Just a thought.

I don't think we bought Gallagher with the intent of him being a defensive player. He's a £5m striker so I absolutely refute the idea that if he defends well then that is good enough. It isn't. I know you aren't saying that but for me this concept of him winning aerial duels and being a good defensive player is only a minor and debateable positive. If we wanted to defend better than we bring in better defenders and defensive midfielders. Strikers are brought in to score and assist goals. If they help defend then that's a bonus, but they will always be judged on how many they score and create.

As for stretching the stats being muddling, no, I wouldn't say so. It's clear that Gallagher's goalscoring dropped off significantly as soon as Mowbray arrived and has continued in that vein so far this season. It suggests that the way Mowbray plays isn't conductive to Gallagher being a goalscoring threat, although the only time he has been a goalscoring threat was under Owen Coyle in a team that lost most weeks, so, unless we discount his whole career thus far and wipe the slate clean it might just be that he can't operate well as an offensive player in a team that defends properly.

Ultimately stats are just stats and don't tell the whole story. They only provide an indicator and thus far this season it's an accurate indicator. I very much hope it changes, as otherwise we've spent £12m combined on two strikers who aren't contributing to goals or assists, which would obviously be hugely concerning. 

[JBiz]

Just now, DE. said:

I don't think we bought Gallagher with the intent of him being a defensive player. He's a £5m striker so I absolutely refute the idea that if he defends well then that is good enough. It isn't. I know you aren't saying that but for me this concept of him winning aerial duels and being a good defensive player is only a minor and debateable positive. If we wanted to defend better than we bring in better defenders and defensive midfielders. Strikers are brought in to score and assist goals. If they help defend then that's a bonus, but they will always be judged on how many they score and create.

As for stretching the stats being muddling, no, I wouldn't say so. It's clear that Gallagher's goalscoring dropped off significantly as soon as Mowbray arrived and has continued in that vein so far this season. It suggests that the way Mowbray plays isn't conductive to Gallagher being a goalscoring threat, although the only time he has been a goalscoring threat was under Owen Coyle in a team that lost most weeks, so, unless we discount his whole career thus far and wipe the slate clean it might just be that he can't operate well as an offensive player in a team that defends properly.

Ultimately stats are just stats and don't tell the whole story. They only provide an indicator and thus far this season it's an accurate indicator. I very much hope it changes, as otherwise we've spent £12m combined on two strikers who aren't contributing to goals or assists, which would obviously be hugely concerning. 

Refute your own interpretation of my point at your own will. It’s a good example of something he will bring to this team that’ll be routinely ignored.

As for stats- 18 appearances split over 4 years in a completely different context, with different team mates, and most importantly - in different “body” so to speak.

I just don’t see any value in it personally! Let’s give him a season in this team and see where he is.

[DE.]

Just now, Harry The Bass said:

Refute your own interpretation of my point at your own will. It’s a good example of something he will bring to this team that’ll be routinely ignored.

As for stats- 18 appearances split over 4 years in a completely different context, with different team mates, and most importantly - in different “body” so to speak.

I just don’t see any value in it personally! Let’s give him a season in this team and see where he is.

How much of my post did you read? Because I literally said "I know you aren't saying this" right after the part you highlighted so I can only assume you got that far as this obviously was not my interpretation of your point!

The stats are what they are, they can be interpreted a number of ways but they are the only real indicator we have. You can choose to ignore them and that's fine, but I do put some value in them as I don't think Mowbray has changed his style much since he arrived. New team mates, sure, but that will only matter if performances and the style of play is significantly different from the last time he was here. Remember that when TM arrived he put us on a trajectory which under a full season would have seen us safe and roughly on the same points he collected last season and likely will do this season as well. I don't think circumstances are as different as you believe.

Edited August 27, 2019 by DE.

[tomphil]

11 minutes ago, Dr X said:

So 800 to 500K a goal, bargain ?

I think you'll find he's here for more than a season so we might end in profit ?

[tomphil]

19 minutes ago, DE. said:

A different beast I'm afraid. Coyle's gung ho style meant we scored plenty of goals but conceded a ton at the back too. This was technically true of Mowbray last season but the goals were largely concentrated around Graham and Dack, not our wide players. This season we aren't anywhere near as effective as an attacking force but there are signs of improving defensively. 

Under Coyle Gallagher scored 10 in 31 matches, with 3 assists. Under Mowbray it was 1 goal in 13 appearances with 1 assist. Overall when working with Mowbray Gallagher has 18 apps, 1 goal, 1 assist. So, it would take quite a turnaround of form for him to get to 6 let alone 10 goals. Not saying it's impossible but there is no history of Gallagher scoring or creating goals under this manager. Although the same could be said for more or less every player in our team save for Graham and Dack.

Can't argue with those facts only thing i'll flag up is Mowbray came in to try and stem the the tide against relegation and naturally adopted a more cautious pragmatic approach to it.

Seems he's going that way again in the quest to shore up the defence he didn't invest in in summer so Gally might suffer for that as will all the forwards.  Getting in a hard working striker who'll put in a shift to help may have been part of the thinking behind paying 5 million for him but i think if they loosen things up a bit in attack he'll start banging a few in if he finds himself able to get in the box.

[DE.]

Just now, tomphil said:

Can't argue with those facts only thing i'll flag up is Mowbray came in to try and stem the the tide against relegation and naturally adopted a more cautious pragmatic approach to it.

Seems he's going that way again in the quest to shore up the defence he didn't invest in in summer so Gally might suffer for that as will all the forwards.  Getting in a hard working striker who'll put in a shift to help may have been part of the thinking behind paying 5 million for him but i think if they loosen things up a bit in attack he'll start banging a few in if he finds himself able to get in the box.

The average for strikers Mowbray has brought in (Samuel, Nuttall, Antonsson, Armstrong) is about a 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 ratio. Then you've got the likes of Brereton who has only scored 1 league goal in 26 appearances, but remove him as an outlier and you have strikers who are roughly scoring 7 or 8 goals a season. Although most of the time they are not really playing as strikers, so... Mowbray. What a character.

[tomphil]

Just now, DE. said:

The average for strikers Mowbray has brought in (Samuel, Nuttall, Antonsson, Armstrong) is about a 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 ratio. Then you've got the likes of Brereton who has only scored 1 league goal in 26 appearances, but remove him as an outlier and you have strikers who are roughly scoring 7 or 8 goals a season. Although most of the time they are not really playing as strikers, so... Mowbray. What a character.

He certainly doesn't seem keen on out and out strikers that's for sure.

[roversfan99]

2 hours ago, Harry The Bass said:

Hard work is a pre-requisite, however I would disagree that’s all we’ve seen from Gallagher.

Strength, Power, Pace for a big man, aerial dominance, constant pressing, linking with overlap or the other attackers...

Was the expectation instant Graham replacement? I personally think signing young forwards should guarantee patience, and that’s why I felt a 6 game in “sweeping criticism” was another typical BRFCSism you’ll only ever hear here!

To clarify, that initial comment about Lowe was one you took out of context as a "comparison" when he was just highlighting a specific part of chaddys post showing the folly of praising a player so much for his work rate.

Who has said he should be as good as Graham straight away? Totally made up argument.

If your mentality is that you shouldnt judge yet, fair enough but others will and have the right to do so. I dont believe he should be in our starting 11 at this time on merit.

I personally totally agree with @DE. in  regards to what I also perceive to be a lack of attacking threat from Gallagher and also that Mowbrays appointment coinceded with a decrease in his effectiveness first time around.

[JBiz]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

To clarify, that initial comment about Lowe was one you took out of context as a "comparison" when he was just highlighting a specific part of chaddys post showing the folly of praising a player so much for his work rate.

Who has said he should be as good as Graham straight away? Totally made up argument.

If your mentality is that you shouldnt judge yet, fair enough but others will and have the right to do so. I dont believe he should be in our starting 11 at this time on merit.

I personally totally agree with @DE. in  regards to what I also perceive to be a lack of attacking threat from Gallagher and also that Mowbrays appointment coinceded with a decrease in his effectiveness first time around.

Didn’t you use the phrase “has done sod all”? Hence why you’d agree with anyone who is solely focused on pointing out issues with his performances, and delving 3 years into the past for statistics to make a point.

It’s a rather callous and negative comparison to be making, whether you think it’s in context or not, that’s simply my view. As I said, you only hear that sort of sweeping stuff here. 

Edited August 27, 2019 by Harry The Bass

[Bigdoggsteel]

24 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I personally totally agree with @DE. in  regards to what I also perceive to be a lack of attacking threat from Gallagher and also that Mowbrays appointment coinceded with a decrease in his effectiveness first time around.

Ya, god damn Mowbray coming in and undoing Coyles good work. Those 3-2 defeats week in week out were so exciting! 

[Maji]

2 hours ago, tomphil said:

I think you'll find he's here for more than a season so we might end in profit ?

Is he paying us per goal?  ?

I hope he comes good but 5m on a striker with no goals in 19 months (read on here), does not float my boat.

[tomphil]

Just now, Dr X said:

Is he paying us per goal?  ?

I hope he comes good but 5m on a striker with no goals in 19 months (read on here), does not float my boat.

Well the last one cost 7 mill so on a sliding scale at least they are getting cheaper.....?

[Maji]

Just now, tomphil said:

Well the last one cost 7 mill so on a sliding scale at least they are getting cheaper.....?

Lol. How true.

I know this though if I needed to invest in a player, it would not be one of TMs suggestions.

[roversfan99]

26 minutes ago, Harry The Bass said:

Didn’t you use the phrase “has done sod all”? Hence why you’d agree with anyone who is solely focused on pointing out issues with his performances, and delving 3 years into the past for statistics to make a point.

It’s a rather callous and negative comparison to be making, whether you think it’s in context or not, that’s simply my view. As I said, you only hear that sort of sweeping stuff here. 

In terms of attacking threat he has done very little and has never really looked like scoring in my opinion.

People will judge players on their performances, and it makes perfect sense that people have regularly praised a defence on the back of 3 clean sheets, and also questioned an attack that gas yet to score from open play. Gallagher has played every game and is a big part of said failing attack.

If you have such a problem with what you perceive to be the nature of the messageboard, what do you get from regularly reading and posting out of interest?

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Ya, god damn Mowbray coming in and undoing Coyles good work. Those 3-2 defeats week in week out were so exciting! 

Again, seemingly as an attempt to be funny, you have taken something massively out of context.

Gallagher as an individual was far more effective under Coyle than Mowbray during his loan spell, as proven statistically. Blackburn Rovers were far less effective under Coyle. They arent mutually exclusive.

[Blue blood]

In fairness to Gally being stuck out on the wing is not going to help him get goals whatsoever. 

In fairness to our £12 million spent (charitably assuming Armstrong is a utility player) we really should have a Graham replacement.