Tony Mowbray Discussion

[Sparks Rover]

1 hour ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Ok so just assuming for a second  in a weird parallel conspiratorial world that the explanation for the Training ground move isn't the obvious one that it's to get round FFP and it is in fact  a machiavellian plot to cash in on it by the owners.

Why not just sell it now?

Why not just remortgage it and retain ownership then with the club?  Money is cheap to borrow....

[Upside Down]

7 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Taking the thread back to the original topic of Mowbray, Ssturday's game at Bristol City was a microcosm of us under him imo.

First half, against a team bang out of form and confidence we never turned up. This was followed by a much improved second half display.

In the end a draw was probably fair but a team going places would have scented blood and found a way to win yesterday. Whatever anyone's views on the owners, under a better and more ambitious manager we would do better.

Someone who could get the players to put a shift in for 90 mins as opposed to 45 would help.

Mowbray out

Waggott out

Venus out.

 

We seem to concede goals with frightening ease. We may as well accept that we start each game a goal down at least.

[Gav]

8 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Taking the thread back to the original topic of Mowbray, Ssturday's game at Bristol City was a microcosm of us under him imo.

In recent seasons we'd have lost that game on Saturday imo, we didn't lose, we gained a point in my book.

We also saw another Mowbray signing standing up to be counted, the excellent Thomas Kaminski. In a week where he was called up to the full Belgium national side, his value increases further, Mowbray can certainly spot a player.

Not all bad is it Rev.

 

[RevidgeBlue]

6 hours ago, Sparks Rover said:

Why not just remortgage it and retain ownership then with the club?  Money is cheap to borrow....

Because that isn't permissible for FFP purposes!

[RevidgeBlue]

4 minutes ago, Gav said:

 Mowbray can certainly spot a player.

Aye, like Christian Walton.

Edit: If you make enough duff signings I suppose you're bound to get the odd one right eventually on the law of averages.

Edited November 22, 2021 by RevidgeBlue

[Gav]

8 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Aye, like Christian Walton.

Edit: If you make enough duff signings I suppose you're bound to get the odd one right eventually on the law of averages.

He was a loan signing wasn't he?

Can you tell me how many 'duff signings' he's made when a transfer fee has been involved? 

[Blue blood]

15 minutes ago, Gav said:

He was a loan signing wasn't he?

Can you tell me how many 'duff signings' he's made when a transfer fee has been involved? 

Think this is an unfair criteria as just because a transfer fee may or may not be involved doesn't necessarily influence their importance to the team. 

Walton is a case in point. "Just" a loan but played most games and cost us countless goals and points. Not sure well we didn't pay a fee for him is a valid excuse for how damaging he was to the team. Whittingham would be another - no transfer fee involved but one of our higher earners making it a costly mistake. 

Gallagher would be the first name to meet your criteria btw. 

I'll be honest Gav. Whilst I agree Venkys are the bigger problem TM is far from a good manager and I find it a tad strange that he's absolved of blame even as a symptom not the cause. 

[Gav]

25 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

Think this is an unfair criteria as just because a transfer fee may or may not be involved doesn't necessarily influence their importance to the team. 

Walton is a case in point. "Just" a loan but played most games and cost us countless goals and points. Not sure well we didn't pay a fee for him is a valid excuse for how damaging he was to the team. Whittingham would be another - no transfer fee involved but one of our higher earners making it a costly mistake. 

Gallagher would be the first name to meet your criteria btw. 

I'll be honest Gav. Whilst I agree Venkys are the bigger problem TM is far from a good manager and I find it a tad strange that he's absolved of blame even as a symptom not the cause. 

Rev has run a mile because Mowbrays buys have been on the whole excellent, his return on investment must delight the owners, no getting away from that.

The loan market is a lottery, especially when we have no money to compete on wages. Harvey Elliot was a gem, Tosin was a gem, but its a lottery in the main with more failures than successes. 

On Sam Gallagher, he's a mangers dream, if you go to games thinking "Gallagher = striker = goals" and nothing else matters, you'll probably be disappointed. But the work that lad puts in during a game is phenomenal with or without the ball, how many chances has he setup this season for his team mates?

Brereton up until this season was poor, he not only failed to score he also didn't work hard enough, but he's put that right this season and all credit to him.

I never absolved Mowbray of any blame for not being good enough, I'd have sacked him a while ago, but clearly its not all bad, for the reasons I've already stated. 

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Gav

[RevidgeBlue]

3 minutes ago, Gav said:

Rev has run a mile because Mowbrays buys have been on the whole excellent, his return on investment must delight the owners, no getting away from that.

The loan market is a lottery, especially when we have no money to compete on wages. Harvey Elliot was a gem, Tosin was a gem, but its a lottery in the main with more failures than successes. 

On Sam Gallagher, he's a mangers dream, if you go to games thinking "Gallagher = striker = goals" and nothing else matters, you'll probably be disappointed. But the work that lad puts in during a game is phenomenal with or without the ball, how many chances has he setup this season for his team mates?

Brereton up until this season was poor, he not only failed to score he also didn't work hard enough, but he's put that right this season and all credit to him.

I never absolved Mowbray of any blame for not being good enough, I'd have sacked him a while ago, but clearly its not all bad, for the reasons I've already stated. 

 

You're clearly on the wind up Gav, Gallagher has been an absolutely abysmal signing.

Clubs in our current  position simplycan't afford to get it wrong when spending that much and he's also one of the highest wage earners.

What makes it even more unforgiveable was that he was here before and didn't look all that then. (Albeit substantially better than he does now)

[Bigdoggsteel]

Dack, Brereton and Armstrong were signed for a total under £10 million pounds. Dack would have left for £15 million plus if fit, Armstrong did leave for £15 million and it should have been more and Brereton will leave for that if not more. That's a £35 million profit. Simple as. Mowbray deserves credit and of course you can say Dack is injured and didn't leave blah , blah, but we all know he would have if fit. 

[RevidgeBlue]

2 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Dack, Brereton and Armstrong were signed for a total under £10 million pounds. Dack would have left for £15 million plus if fit, Armstrong did leave for £15 million and it should have been more and Brereton will leave for that if not more. That's a £35 million profit. Simple as. Mowbray deserves credit and of course you can say Dack is injured and didn't leave blah , blah, but we all know he would have if fit. 

They cost £11m. (£1m, £3m and £7m)

We only netted around £10m for Armstrong (should have been more but for the contract situation) and similarly there's a good chance Brereton will leave for nothing or a lot less than his true worth for the same reason.

I wonder how many players Mowbray has signed in his near 5 and a half seasons here? A hell of a lot and  off the top of my head I'd genuinely only say Dack/ Armstrong/Brereton/Kaminsky/Elliott/Harwood Bellis Tosin and Reed (who he wasted anyway) were good signings. May be the odd one I've missed so apologies to them.

I'd say that's a dreadful ratio in comparison to the numbers of players he's actually signed, the amount spent on wages and the dead money frittered away on loan fees.

[1864roverite]

12 hours ago, 47er said:

I notice you have completely ignored 2 posts on Kean's contract! What's your explanation?

Why would a manager be offered a bonus to take his club to the Championship and a further one to Div 1?

 

I haven't ignored it I don't recall seeing it.

Bonus payments for relegation? I am not too sure on that ethic but in football if you drop a league or two you take wage drops not increases. Contracts in football are also subject to overview of the FA and Premier League for compliance and I am pretty sure that if such clauses were put in place someone would have noticed it!

[1864roverite]

1 hour ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Because that isn't permissible for FFP purposes!

A  few still don't understand that the way Rovers have played this "sale" is consummate with FFP rules and that this practice is now no longer allowed in the Football League. You could actually say they played a blinder on this point.

[RevidgeBlue]

1 minute ago, 1864roverite said:

A  few still don't understand that the way Rovers have played this "sale" is consummate with FFP rules and that this practice is now no longer allowed in the Football League. You could actually say they played a blinder on this point.

"Played a blinder" is perhaps stretching it a bit far as clued up, knowledgeable and hands on owners shouldn't have allowed the situation to get to that point in the first place.

But yes, they did exploit the loophole just before it was closed off which to me demonstrates their continued commitment to the cause.

Now if only all that money and genuine intent could finally be put to good use under skillfull and shrewd operators on the ground at Ewood with their finger on the pulse of the supporter base.

[Bigdoggsteel]

33 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

They cost £11m. (£1m, £3m and £7m)

We only netted around £10m for Armstrong (should have been more but for the contract situation) and similarly there's a good chance Brereton will leave for nothing or a lot less than his true worth for the same reason.

I wonder how many players Mowbray has signed in his near 5 and a half seasons here? A hell of a lot and  off the top of my head I'd genuinely only say Dack/ Armstrong/Brereton/Kaminsky/Elliott/Harwood Bellis Tosin and Reed (who he wasted anyway) were good signings. May be the odd one I've missed so apologies to them.

I'd say that's a dreadful ratio in comparison to the numbers of players he's actually signed, the amount spent on wages and the dead money frittered away on loan fees.

Dack was £750,000, widely reported. Grand we will say £3 for AA even though it was £1.75 upfront, Brereton reported at £6 million. 

We got £15 million for Armstrong, of which Newcastle did get a cut. Still doesn't alter the fact a he sold for 5 times what Mowbray paid for him and scored almost 30 league goals in his final season here.

Not every deal will work out but ultimately he has made a profit or at least recouped most of what he spent on the Armstrong deal alone. 

Yes, we know there have been issues on the field at times, but to someone looking at the figures and from the outside, you can't argue he has done good business. Would have been even better if Dack didn't get injured. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Bigdoggsteel

[RevidgeBlue]

7 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Dack was £750,000, widely reported. Grand we will say £3 for AA even though it was £1.75 upfront, Brereton reported at £6 million. 

We got £15 million for Armstrong, of which Newcastle did get a cut. Still doesn't alter the fact a he sold for 5 times what Mowbray paid for him and scored almost 30 league goals in his final season here.

Not every deal will work out but ultimately he has made a profit or at least recouped most of what he spent on the Armstrong deal alone. 

Yes, we know there have been issues on the field at times, but to someone looking at the figures and from the outside, you can't argue he has done good business. Would have been even better if Dack didn't get injured. 

Dack was a stroke of inspiration there's no doubt about that, fairly left field and by far the best signing of the lot all things considered.

My argument would be, if you're given the funding to bring in around, I don't know forty or fifty players over five years either permanently or on loan, you'd expect a few belters as an absolute minimum and under a genuinely astute manager, a lot more than that.

[Bigdoggsteel]

17 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Dack was a stroke of inspiration there's no doubt about that, fairly left field and by far the best signing of the lot all things considered.

My argument would be, if you're given the funding to bring in around, I don't know forty or fifty players over five years either permanently or on loan, you'd expect a few belters as an absolute minimum and under a genuinely astute manager, a lot more than that.

Would you? I would say look at the division, a handful of teams have managed that and the vast majority of them had parachute money.  A lot of managers have overseen far worse spending than Mowbray has 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Bigdoggsteel

[Gav]

1 hour ago, RevidgeBlue said:

You're clearly on the wind up Gav, Gallagher has been an absolutely abysmal signing.

Sam Gallagher is probably the first name on the team sheet when fit, he does far more than score goals Rev, his work ethic with an without the ball is undeniable, he creates, and weights in with one or two also, a managers dream.

If he could add a few more goals to his tally he'd be off for another significant profit, he can spot a player can Mowbray. 

[Wheelton Blue]

Of course, Mowbray may well have had some success in the transfer market.

Where he's been abysmal though, is putting a team together, one that can win sufficient games and make progress.

A manager can buy all the superstars in the world, but that's no use if he can't make a team out of them. 

After 5 seasons, an 11th place 'highlight' tells me enough about him.

[rigger]

3 hours ago, Gav said:

He was a loan signing wasn't he?

Can you tell me how many 'duff signings' he's made when a transfer fee has been involved? 

Harry Chapman, Amari Bell.

Edited November 22, 2021 by rigger

[Admiral Nelsen]

22 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Dack was a stroke of inspiration there's no doubt about that, fairly left field and by far the best signing of the lot all things considered.

My argument would be, if you're given the funding to bring in around, I don't know forty or fifty players over five years either permanently or on loan, you'd expect a few belters as an absolute minimum and under a genuinely astute manager, a lot more than that.

 

I think we have to take things like size of fee/importance of player into account when judging his transfer record. Nobody was bothered with Sparky signing the Berners, Vogels and Rigters of this world because because when we needed to spend the budget on a new striker, he always delivered in spades.

 

This actually makes it a tricky task to judge Mowbray's record. There are some players who were brought as (relatively) low cost loans, but need to be judged as pretty important failures because they filled important roles and didn't cut the mustard (e.g. Walton, Douglas). Others have eventually paid dividends, but only in time and there's an argument that the eventual Brilliant success of Ayala and Brereton has come 12 months too late for a promotion push. So even looking at Brereton as an investment which has paid off, it's not as simple as just saying that he's been a great signing because of the time that we've needed to wait for him to get to that level.

 

At the same time, trying to take everything together, I really don't think that Mowbray's transfer record is something to hold against him. Quite the opposite actually. There are the obvious examples of Dack, Armstrong, Kaminski et al, but there are plenty of others that you'd have as successes given either how much we paid, or what we needed at a certain point in time. Whilst we wouldn't take any of them now, the likes of Smallwood, P. Downing, Samuel, Nuttall, Payne & Antonsson all played significant roles in getting us up first time and were signed for buttons. More recently, there have been others who were low-risk signings who improved us whilst admittedly not doing it consistently enough to be classed as a Dack/Armstrong level success (e.g. Holtby, Rothwell, 1st. season S. Downing). A handful of these low-risk signings haven't worked out, for whatever reason, but the success of Dolan should eventually make up for a dozen Sam Harts. 

 

Ultimately, I think the case against Mowbray as manager begins and ends with his ability to get the most out of the players available to him. The squad we had last year was, according to plenty on here (myself included) was good enough to finish in the top 6 - so the issue for me isn't really recruitment, even if it's that is bit of a complex picture. The squad was also made up of plenty of young players & academy graduates, so neither is the issue that Mowbray doesn't trust youth as others have suggested elsewhere. For me it just boils down to not getting the results that we should get consistently enough, most else is just noise. 

[47er]

1 hour ago, 1864roverite said:

I haven't ignored it I don't recall seeing it.

Bonus payments for relegation? I am not too sure on that ethic but in football if you drop a league or two you take wage drops not increases. Contracts in football are also subject to overview of the FA and Premier League for compliance and I am pretty sure that if such clauses were put in place someone would have noticed it!

We have noticed it! Most people on here at the time have read it! In fact everyone's seen it but you and Arsene Wenger!

Its in the Dossier! Read it and get back to me!! Hard to believe isn't it?

You'll recall me saying a week or two back that there was plenty of evidence that things weren't right but the football authorities looked the other way?

And if you're not sure on that ethic, I am!

 

[LeftWinger]

14 hours ago, 47er said:

I notice you have completely ignored 2 posts on Kean's contract! What's your explanation?

Why would a manager be offered a bonus to take his club to the Championship and a further one to Div 1?

 

He wasn't offered a bonus payment to take the club to the Championship and League 1. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 hour ago, Wheelton Blue said:

Of course, Mowbray may well have had some success in the transfer market.

Where he's been abysmal though, is putting a team together, one that can win sufficient games and make progress.

A manager can buy all the superstars in the world, but that's no use if he can't make a team out of them. 

After 5 seasons, an 11th place 'highlight' tells me enough about him.

Abysmal is hyperbole, average would be fair 

[Blue blood]

3 hours ago, Gav said:

Rev has run a mile because Mowbrays buys have been on the whole excellent, his return on investment must delight the owners, no getting away from that.

The loan market is a lottery, especially when we have no money to compete on wages. Harvey Elliot was a gem, Tosin was a gem, but its a lottery in the main with more failures than successes. 

On Sam Gallagher, he's a mangers dream, if you go to games thinking "Gallagher = striker = goals" and nothing else matters, you'll probably be disappointed. But the work that lad puts in during a game is phenomenal with or without the ball, how many chances has he setup this season for his team mates?

Brereton up until this season was poor, he not only failed to score he also didn't work hard enough, but he's put that right this season and all credit to him.

I never absolved Mowbray of any blame for not being good enough, I'd have sacked him a while ago, but clearly its not all bad, for the reasons I've already stated. 

 

Sorry Gav I strongly disagree on a number of points. Whether measured by goals or any other metric Gally isn't very good and hasn't been for us. I don't think anyone thinks that the right wing expertiment for Gally has worked, and putting in a shift isn't really enough for a forward. He doesn't score loads, doesn't create much, doesn't hold the ball up well. For a significantly large fee (for us) that's a very poor return. He's been a bit better this season, but again, nowhere near £5 millions worth. 

Nor do I think it's fair to say loans are a lottery. That's not true, it's not a lucky dip! Perhaps if the player hasn't played professional/competitive football there is an element of uncertainty - beyond that of a normal transfer - but even that in itself hints at what is going to happen; their inexperience will cost us. Most loans however don't have that degree of uncertainty Tosin had just done a full session at West Brom, Douglas had played Championship before and so on. In most cases there was evidence of how they would shape up, and for the others we didn't really get anything other than expected from a novice. So it's not pot luck, and I feel that exonerates TM of his responsibility in these transfers. 

Bereton is an exceptionally interesting case. Does one good season and a profit negate two terrible years and one ok one at a huge cost for us? I can't think of another player like it. Perhaps McCarthy was the only one, with the difference being he didn't cost the earth and his good season came at the start. It's very hard to quantify the opportunity costs of that 7 mill and two dreadful seasons, but then they came when we had others scoring. I'll be honest I don't know how to quantify him as a success or failure, but will caveat it with I am enjoying his form. 

Would agree it's not all rubbish with TM but I do think his transfer record is very sketchy.