Tony Mowbray Discussion

[Bigdoggsteel]

I do wonder about this stuff in relation to Brereton being a Balaji pet project. I can't help but feel it it gives Balaji credit for being more in touch with that club and football in general than he is. 

I reckon we had close to the money as it was reported we were in for Freeman at around 4.5 million. The Brereton deal could have been structured in a similar way, like 1.5 million paid off per year or something like that. I would put it in the category of panic buy , that we weren't actually in a panic for. 

[islander200]

18 minutes ago, JHRover said:

I agree. The cash we spent on Brereton I don't believe was available to Mowbray from the start of the summer window and had strings attached - it could only be spent on a certain category of player.

I don't think there is any chance whatsoever that the money could have been split into 2-3 decent sums invested into 2-3 different positions, because if it could Mowbray woud have done that instead.

It has too many similarities to the Rhodes deal - last minute, sudden, unexpected splash of the cash to such an amount the selling club couldn't say no.

I suspect it was a bonus that Mowbray felt forced to use due to pressure from upstairs and also the risk that it wouldn't be there in future windows if he didn't spend it there and then.

This is life in Venky world.

So the bids for Celina and Freeman that summer added to the other players that were brought in was just my imagination?

And wasnt the Rhodes deal put foward to Shebby Singh by Glen Mullan and the fans group?

Edited November 24, 2021 by islander200

[Gav]

3 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I do wonder about this stuff in relation to Brereton being a Balaji pet project. I can't help but feel it it gives Balaji credit for being more in touch with that club and football in general than he is. 

I reckon we had close to the money as it was reported we were in for Freeman at around 4.5 million. The Brereton deal could have been structured in a similar way, like 1.5 million paid off per year or something like that. I would put it in the category of panic buy , that we weren't actually in a panic for. 

I think you misunderstand my point, or maybe I do yours Bigdogs.

All that Balaji was doing was providing the money, he wasn't aware of the players involved, but I take your point on a pet project, is he even capable of conjuring up such an idea 😃

[Gav]

7 minutes ago, islander200 said:

So the bids for Celina and Freeman that summer added to the other players that were brought in was just my imagination?

And wasnt the Rhodes deal put foward to Shebby Singh by Glen Mullan and the fans group?

Nobody really knows Islander, lets be honest, who wanted to buy Raul from Real Madrid? Balaji!

Edited November 24, 2021 by Gav

[JHRover]

7 minutes ago, islander200 said:

So the bids for Celina and Freeman that summer added to the other players that were brought in was just my imagination?

And wasnt the Rhodes deal put foward to Shebby Singh by Glen Mullan and the fans group?

I don't remember any serious interest or reports of it in Celina.

Freeman was similar to Brereton - it suddenly came about a couple of weeks before the window slammed shut and raised eyebrows because it seemed completely bizarre that we suddenly had the cash at our disposal to go and sign QPRs star player.

QPR weren't playing ball though and rejected the approach, which led directly to us moving for Brereton instead.

If we had that cash to spend and had targeted Brereton earlier he would have been signed earlier that summer. Instead we had to get him on loan with an agreement to buy in January because we were so late with it - certainly doesn't suggest there was much of a plan.

I think that one of the Venkys decided to chuck some of their own cash into the transfer pot - no doubt in a phase of interest and excitement following promotion - and it was a case of spend it now or risk it not being there in January.

You mention the other players brought in that summer - you are correct there were plenty of signings - but none of them major cash buys which is why suddenly throwing money around on Brereton in the final week of the window seemed so odd and inconsistent. Prior to the Brereton deal and Freeman bid there had been Jack Rodwell and Joe Rothwell (free), Armstrong (£1.5 million), Palmer & Reed on loan and Davenport for a small fee.

So 2 loans, 2 free agents, Davenport for a couple of hundred grand and then Mowbray's project Armstrong for a reaonable but not massive fee. Then all of a sudden £7 million goes out on a teenage striker in the last days of the window? Very strange.

[Bigdoggsteel]

8 minutes ago, Gav said:

I think you misunderstand my point, or maybe I do yours Bigdogs.

All that Balaji was doing was providing the money, he wasn't aware of the players involved, but I take your point on a pet project, is he even capable of conjuring up such an idea 😃

No, I think we are on same theme. I'm just not sure it was that much "extra" seeing as we were in for Freeman at around 4.5 million. I think as usual we just missed out on players near the end of the window and the Brereton deal fell our way. Lucky it did now 

We could have been paying either deal off in installments , so I don't think there is much of a story to it 

[islander200]

11 minutes ago, JHRover said:

I don't remember any serious interest or reports of it in Celina.

Freeman was similar to Brereton - it suddenly came about a couple of weeks before the window slammed shut and raised eyebrows because it seemed completely bizarre that we suddenly had the cash at our disposal to go and sign QPRs star player.

QPR weren't playing ball though and rejected the approach, which led directly to us moving for Brereton instead.

If we had that cash to spend and had targeted Brereton earlier he would have been signed earlier that summer. Instead we had to get him on loan with an agreement to buy in January because we were so late with it - certainly doesn't suggest there was much of a plan.

I think that one of the Venkys decided to chuck some of their own cash into the transfer pot - no doubt in a phase of interest and excitement following promotion - and it was a case of spend it now or risk it not being there in January.

You mention the other players brought in that summer - you are correct there were plenty of signings - but none of them major cash buys which is why suddenly throwing money around on Brereton in the final week of the window seemed so odd and inconsistent. Prior to the Brereton deal and Freeman bid there had been Jack Rodwell and Joe Rothwell (free), Armstrong (£1.5 million), Palmer & Reed on loan and Davenport for a small fee.

So 2 loans, 2 free agents, Davenport for a couple of hundred grand and then Mowbray's project Armstrong for a reaonable but not massive fee. Then all of a sudden £7 million goes out on a teenage striker in the last days of the window? Very strange.

Brererton wasnt made available until late in the window by Forest and he was being touted around to clubs 

On Celina he didnt name names but Mowbray said we had agreed a deal to bring in a midfielder from City only for our wage offer to be blown out the water by another championship club.Celina was the only City midfielder to move for a fee to a championship club that summer.

You are right it was all very late with the deals but Mowbray spent that summer telling us money was available

[JacknOry]

18 hours ago, Gav said:

If you look at the players bought for a fee, which is where you’re more likely to see any sell on value, Spartakfenni was saying the remit was young English type players to develop and sell on:

Dack, Cairney, Duffy, Gallagher, Brereton, Dolan (Free), Rothwell, Armstrong off the top of my head.

Those players seem to fit the bill perfectly and align with what Fenni was saying. 

It might be a sub-remit, but Fenni was adamantly saying its a Balaji signing, Any club will look to buy young as an investment, this is not what he said. 

[JacknOry]

8 hours ago, Gav said:

I think you're spot on about the Balaji purchase of Brereton, its not like it hadn't happened before (Rhodes).

Nobody in the press had even the slightest hint we were after him, which tells its own story, it came right out of the blue, something didn't add up.

It seems to me like Mowbray wasn't given the option of spending £7m on players, he was given 1 choice, young domestic striker to develop and sell on, then Balaji can show off to his mates in India.

Looks to have worked too.

So why the bids/liks to other players that didnt fit the young/english remit? That summer? 

[JacknOry]

6 hours ago, Gav said:

I've given my opinion on the Balaji factor already.

Brereton wasn't available at all until we weighed in with a bid they couldn't turn down, that came out of the blue and took Forest and everyone else by surprise. 

No, it was made clear that agents were summoned to sell him. 

[JacknOry]

IMO - We had a transfer kitty and TM as always likes to collect attackers, end of story. When really, we need that money spent elsewhere.

[chaddyrovers]

6 hours ago, JHRover said:

Freeman was similar to Brereton - it suddenly came about a couple of weeks before the window slammed shut and raised eyebrows because it seemed completely bizarre that we suddenly had the cash at our disposal to go and sign QPRs star player.

QPR weren't playing ball though and rejected the approach, which led directly to us moving for Brereton instead.

That happened on deadline day not a couple of weeks before the permanent signing happened

[Wood26]

6 hours ago, JacknOry said:

IMO - We had a transfer kitty and TM as always likes to collect attackers, end of story. When really, we need that money spent elsewhere.

In actual fact he signed two young strikers for 8 million in Armstrong and Brereton.

One scored 29 goals and was sold for a massive profit, the other is now on 15 goals so far this season and also likely to go for big bucks, or stay and do a great job.

Buy you attackers and sell them for profit is the only model we got. Defenders won’t go for the same. But when you bring in a player like Ayala on a free then who’s complaining?

Last season the criticism of Mowbray using his Boro links like it was a weakness, when in reality Downing was our best player his first season and Ayala has been a rock this season.

Their is an obvious trend of people on here slagging off Mowbray signings and then looking stupid.

[47er]

15 minutes ago, Wood26 said:

Their is an obvious trend of people on here slagging off Mowbray signings and then looking stupid.

There is a trend of people saying that Mowbray's transfer dealings have been great now that Brereton has come good at last.

No recognition of the fact that he was not what we needed at the time and that TM told us "defenders are coming" when they weren't. And we paid for it on both counts.

[Wood26]

3 minutes ago, 47er said:

There is a trend of people saying that Mowbray's transfer dealings have been great now that Brereton has come good at last.

No recognition of the fact that he was not what we needed at the time and that TM told us "defenders are coming" when they weren't. And we paid for it on both counts.

I’ve always said this, and I don’t know if I am right or wrong, but I believe we signed Brereton out of our budget that year.

I believe we had a budget for season, Brereton became available, so we got extra funds to sign him as an asset for the future.

[JacknOry]

3 hours ago, Wood26 said:

I’ve always said this, and I don’t know if I am right or wrong, but I believe we signed Brereton out of our budget that year.

I believe we had a budget for season, Brereton became available, so we got extra funds to sign him as an asset for the future.

Funds only became available for Brereton when we had already tried to sign Freeman, Bamford, Assombalonga and Celina?

[JacknOry]

3 hours ago, Wood26 said:

In actual fact he signed two young strikers for 8 million in Armstrong and Brereton.

One scored 29 goals and was sold for a massive profit, the other is now on 15 goals so far this season and also likely to go for big bucks, or stay and do a great job.

Buy you attackers and sell them for profit is the only model we got. Defenders won’t go for the same. But when you bring in a player like Ayala on a free then who’s complaining?

Last season the criticism of Mowbray using his Boro links like it was a weakness, when in reality Downing was our best player his first season and Ayala has been a rock this season.

Their is an obvious trend of people on here slagging off Mowbray signings and then looking stupid.

Like the way you have omitted the other 5 mil spent on another striker.

Downing was not our best player, but was good first season yes, second season? Ayala was injured first season and so far been good this - when fit.

Brereton took 3 seasons to finally come good - not a good way to spend 7mil when we needed strenghtening around the team. Im thrilled he is starting to come good but this is not my point. 

[RevidgeBlue]

4 hours ago, Wood26 said:

I’ve always said this, and I don’t know if I am right or wrong, but I believe we signed Brereton out of our budget that year.

I believe we had a budget for season, Brereton became available, so we got extra funds to sign him as an asset for the future.

The way I remember it is that we had been lowballing Clubs all summer and had failed to land anyone at all of note.

Then it appeared as though TM panicking and under pressure to sign someone, went back to the owners for more money towards the end of the window and separate bids of £7m and £5m were made for Brereton and Freeman respectively 48 hours before the window shut. Brereton got over the line, Freeman didn't.

Then as you would expect for a Club of our then size, Mowbray mothballed his £7m asset for 18 months.

🙄

 

[Blue blood]

7 hours ago, Wood26 said:

In actual fact he signed two young strikers for 8 million in Armstrong and Brereton.

One scored 29 goals and was sold for a massive profit, the other is now on 15 goals so far this season and also likely to go for big bucks, or stay and do a great job.

Buy you attackers and sell them for profit is the only model we got. Defenders won’t go for the same. But when you bring in a player like Ayala on a free then who’s complaining?

Last season the criticism of Mowbray using his Boro links like it was a weakness, when in reality Downing was our best player his first season and Ayala has been a rock this season.

Their is an obvious trend of people on here slagging off Mowbray signings and then looking stupid.

Think this is a little bit harsh. I mean it took three years minimum before we saw any return on Bereton. I mean that's a long time for £7 million not to pull their weight. That's hardly impatience is it, waiting three years to see a return? How many other players do you know who were given that long to come good, especially those who took up a huge chunk of the budget. 

As for the Downing and Ayala mentions, it feels like there is some selectivism going on here. We had to play a centre mid and loan in two rookies because Ayala was constantly injured last season, and Downing was anonymous in season 2. That's hardly either being an overwhelming success! 

If you had said none have turned out a disaster and all have had good spells, then you would have been bang on. As it is by totally airbrushing the situation and ignoring key elements of all three players time here it seems a little shortsighted to be saying other people look stupid. If anything it seems a tad daft to be so selective in the narratives you put forward. 

[Gav]

8 hours ago, 47er said:

There is a trend of people saying that Mowbray's transfer dealings have been great now that Brereton has come good at last.

No recognition of the fact that he was not what we needed at the time and that TM told us "defenders are coming" when they weren't. And we paid for it on both counts.

They've been fantastic when a fee has been involved.

Armstrong, Kaminski, Dack, Dolan, Rothwell, Brereton, Gallagher - We paid a fee for these players, money very well spent.

Mowbray was unlucky with the Ayala injury, he was that defender, we can all see now what quality that lad has got, another one Mowbray got right. 

[47er]

7 minutes ago, Gav said:

They've been fantastic when a fee has been involved.

Armstrong, Kaminski, Dack, Dolan, Rothwell, Brereton, Gallagher - We paid a fee for these players, money very well spent.

Mowbray was unlucky with the Ayala injury, he was that defender, we can all see now what quality that lad has got, another one Mowbray got right. 

Fantastic for who? The clubs who will sign them? I really don't agree with you that Gallagher was money well spent by the way.

Very notable in that list of your's----not one outfield defender! As for Ayala, he's great when he's fit but sadly that's not often enough

By the way--we didn't pay a fee for Dolan did we?

[Mattyblue]

I’ve personally always felt that TM can spot a player… it was his own muddled tactics and how to deploy them that was the issue.

This season, a smaller squad seems to have focused his mind and stopped the relentless tinkering, let’s just hope he keeps to it.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Speaking of Freeman is he doing anything these days ? I never hear him mentioned. Did we dodge a bullet ?

[Admiral Nelsen]

4 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Speaking of Freeman is he doing anything these days ? I never hear him mentioned. Did we dodge a bullet ?

 

Went to Sheffield United in the Prem and barely played. Hard to tell if that's his fault or theirs. At Forest this season on loan but I haven't really noticed his form to be honest.

[LeftWinger]

On 23/11/2021 at 22:21, 47er said:

I repeat, why would there be any sort of bonus at all for taking the club down 2 divisions? Why is that clause in there?

Do you believe any other manager had such a provision? Something dodgy here as there was about the whole takeover.

If he took the club down two divisions - he would earn less than he did if he kept the club in the Premier League.

That's not a bonus.