Tony Mowbray Discussion

[riverholmes]

I find it hard to judge Mowbray partly because I just don't know what managerial talent is out there as an alternative and the concerns about our record of appointments, from Ince, Kean, Berg etc. is a worry. However, at some stage we will have to make a change, so that uncertainty can't hold us back forever. If need be, we could try to appoint internally, when the time comes.

The other reason I find it hard to judge Mowbray is I haven't kept track of Rovers' transfer spending compared to other clubs in the league, which is a measure (but not the only) for achievement of a manager. Rovers have spent quite a lot just on squad players or up and coming players, it seems to me, which seems a luxury. Edun, Hedges, Davenport and Chapman, come to mind, and I would speculate that they could be close to or, over, £1m in transfer fees. Then there are loans which must cost us in fees, as well as wages, though I have no idea how much. How that all compares to other clubs, I'm not sure.

The forward line option, last year of Elliot, Armstrong and Brereton (pre-Diaz) does weigh heavily against Mowbray, I feel, given that we finished 15th. Skip a season, in today's inflated transfer market, that's probably a £90-100 million strike force - though Elliot is really a midfielder, Armstrong hasn't yet justified the fee and his valuation is, at least for now, in decline and Brereton will need to maintain his form to justify a huge fee. Throw in Rothwell and some other talents from the squad last year, and I think an argument can be made that Mowbray has an eye for attacking players but hasn't  often put together a team.

This half season, or so, has changed that, and Mowbray has found a winning formula. However, it is only half a season and we need a lot more to prove that it isn't just a temporary improvement.

Edit: I'd also make the argument that Mowbray's taken his eye of youth progression, having benefited and enabled the homegrown system producing Travis, Nyambe, Buckley, Lenihan, Wharton and JRC for his squad. It's not an argument that can really be proved, as it could be equally be argued that the standard of talent coming through hasn't been maintained and some have suffered big injury set-backs. Though, it should be said, the standard of first team players has been poor, at times.

Having five 'homegrown' players in the team at the moment, even if some were signed up from other clubs as teenagers, is huge for a club like Rovers and the progression needs to be maintained to sustain us a club.

 

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by riverholmes

[Devon Rover]

Sorry if this has already been covered and I have missed it, but what might we most realistically read into the fact that Mowbray is now just a few months from the end of his contract, and an extension doesn't appear to have been agreed yet?

1. An extension has been agreed but not announced?
2. An extension is dependent on Rovers finish to the season?
3. Mowbray hasn't yet been offered (improved) terms he is happy with?
4. Mowbray wants to leave at the end of his contract?
5. Venky's have already decided to replace him at the end of the season?
6. Venky's haven't engaged in contract discussion, or shown any interest in the club?

Whilst my view is option 2 is the most sensible, my money would have to be on option 6. But perhaps others know more about these, or other, options?

[Bigdoggsteel]

22 minutes ago, riverholmes said:

I find it hard to judge Mowbray partly because I just don't know what managerial talent is out there as an alternative and the concerns about our record of appointments, from Kean to Ince, is a worry. However, at some stage we will have to make a change, so that uncertainty can't hold us back forever. If need be, we could try to appoint internally, when the time comes.

The other reason I find it hard to judge Mowbray is I haven't kept track of Rovers' transfer spending compared to other clubs in the league, which is a measure (but not the only) for achievement of a manager. Rovers have spent quite a lot just on squad players or up and coming players, it seems to me, which seems a luxury. Edun, Hedges, Davenport and Chapman, come to mind, and I would speculate that they could be close to or, over, £1m in transfer fees. Then there are loans which must cost us in fees, as well as wages, though I have no idea how much. How that all compares to other clubs, I'm not sure.

The forward line option, last year of Elliot, Armstrong and Brereton (pre-Diaz) does weigh heavily against Mowbray, I feel, given that we finished 15th. Skip a season, in today's inflated transfer market, that's probably a £90-100 million strike force - though Elliot is really a midfielder, Armstrong hasn't yet justified the fee and his valuation is, at least for now, in decline and Brereton will need to maintain his form to justify a huge fee. Throw in Rothwell and some other talents from the squad last year, and I think an argument can be made that Mowbray has an eye for attacking players but hasn't  often put together a team.

This half season, or so, has changed that, and Mowbray has found a winning formula. However, it is only half a season and we need a lot more to prove that it isn't just a temporary improvement.

 

About £1.5 million and I don't think that's a lot, at all, for 4 players. They were all worth the risk at what we paid for them...

Then you have Dack, Armstrong, Pickering, Rothwell and Brereton.... You could be looking at the bones of £80 million recouped there going off what their values went up to under Mowbray ,leaving aside injuries and contract issues that are ,by and large, out of Mowbrays control.  

Edited February 11, 2022 by Bigdoggsteel

[Hasta]

2 hours ago, 47er said:

Like pushing Speedie out because it was the only way to get Shearer.

 

Completely off topic, but if Rovers thought Speedie's contribution was so difficult to replace and was probably worth £750+ to replace, had we gone to Southampton with £4million instead of £3.3million I'm sure they would have took it.

Don't get me round I was gutted he left, but considering we could outbid and buy most players in the league at that point, we could surely have increased the bid to an offer that Saints couldn't have turned down.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Hasta

[JHRover]

54 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

About £1.5 million and I don't think that's a lot, at all, for 4 players. They were all worth the risk at what we paid for them...

Then you have Dack, Armstrong, Pickering, Rothwell and Brereton.... You could be looking at the bones of £80 million recouped there going off what their values went up to under Mowbray ,leaving aside injuries and contract issues that are ,by and large, out of Mowbrays control.  

I'm not sure anyone can say that contract issues have been out of Mowbray's control.

He was able to get approval to give expensive contract extensions to Bennett, Mulgrew, Smallwood, Evans and expensive deals to Downing and Holtby. I am pretty sure that in the summer of 2020 he could have focused his budget on new deals for Lenihan, Nyambe, Rothwell and there would have been more than enough scope in there to get those done. Instead they were overlooked and the money spent on other things.

[Gav]

2 hours ago, Devon Rover said:

Sorry if this has already been covered and I have missed it, but what might we most realistically read into the fact that Mowbray is now just a few months from the end of his contract, and an extension doesn't appear to have been agreed yet?

Knowing the type of chap Mowbray is, he'll not want anything to distract from the footballing side of things, so I bet its on the backburner. It won't be a popular theory on here, but all the same it certainly seems that way.

I can think of plenty of examples where the managers contract situation would be all over the press, put there by the manager himself, but not in this case.

 

[RoversClitheroe]

Really hoping Mowbray doesn't get an extension, and we see the likes of:

Ben Benson, Lowe, Waggot, and Venus all leave. 

We need qualified people that are used to winning and have the credentials to actually be in a coaching setup of a premier League ambitious club.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

My fear is the Chicken Chokers will be too lazy to look around for a new manager and will stick with the status quo.

[roversfan99]

4 hours ago, RoversClitheroe said:

Really hoping Mowbray doesn't get an extension, and we see the likes of:

Ben Benson, Lowe, Waggot, and Venus all leave. 

We need qualified people that are used to winning and have the credentials to actually be in a coaching setup of a premier League ambitious club.

Is there any scope in your mind that dependant on the rest of the season, that could change?

If we go up, it would be an outstanding achievement, of course he would deserve one. 

Even if we got in the play offs and didnt go up, that would be an achievement and would for me warrant an extension.

I think you have to take a step back and put aside a seemingly inflexible opinion of Mowbray as a person. Say for a different club with our comparatively low resources, say we finish 4th and lose in the play off finals. If we had a vacancy in the summer, we wouldn't believe our luck if someone with a recent season like that was available, you talk about credentials, yet seemingly if Mowbray took us to that, close but just missed out, he would be binned mainly based on opinions held prior to this season.

If we stumble and finish outside the play offs, then I think you go for a fresh start.

[roverandout]

If he takes us up he deserves a chance but personally I would dump him anyway.  Anything less than playoffs he needs to go

[DE.]

If we don't go up I'm ready for a change, even if we finish in the playoff positions. I haven't forgotten Mowbray inciting the fans to argue with each other on the terraces when small sections started to get on his back before Christmas. For me that in of itself was enough to want him gone - irresponsible and childish behaviour. There have been other incidents, but that one in particular I find very hard to get past. Trying to pit the fans against each other is extremely poor behaviour from the club's manager, to say the least.  

I won't argue against the idea that he's done a good job getting us into the position we're in this season, but there are a lot of managers who have had excellent one off seasons which don't represent their actual ability. Owen Coyle for one. Mowbray is well above Coyle but the general point remains that this kind of thing does happen for certain clubs sometimes. Shrewsbury had a very similar situation during our League 1 campaign - Paul Hurst then went on to tank Ipswich into oblivion and now manages Grimsby in the non-leagues.

If we finish outside of the playoffs then of course he should be shown the door as soon as it's mathematically impossible for us to reach 6th. That would be a monumental screw up, eclipsing the 2 wins in 17 disaster which nuked any chance of playoff contention last season.  

 

[RevidgeBlue]

On 11/02/2022 at 12:33, Wheelton Blue said:

On one hand, Mowbray laments the situation with those players whose contracts are expiring, but on the other hand is seemingly content to let his own situation drift. 

He seemingly won't play Nyambe because his contract is up at the end of the season so perhaps he should leave himself out of the dug out as well for the next match using the same criteria?

[roversfan99]

1 minute ago, RevidgeBlue said:

He seemingly won't play Nyambe because his contract is up at the end of the season so perhaps he should leave himself out of the dug out as well for the next match using the same criteria?

You've assumed that it is solely down to his contract situation. Considering that Rothwell, Lenihan, Van Hecke, Khadra, Giles and indeed Zeefuik all only have the rest of the year on their deals here, it is clearly not the stance that he has taken. Was just a selection decision, one that I would agree was the wrong one, but no need to look so deep into it.

[RevidgeBlue]

23 minutes ago, roverandout said:

If he takes us up he deserves a chance but personally I would dump him anyway.  Anything less than playoffs he needs to go

If he takes us up, think we could do better but probably deserves a brief crack at it, rolling 12 m deal.

If we don't go up, thanks for leaving us another £120m in debt and with many of our best players walking out for nothing. Don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out.

 

[RevidgeBlue]

1 minute ago, roversfan99 said:

You've assumed that it is solely down to his contract situation. Considering that Rothwell, Lenihan, Van Hecke, Khadra, Giles and indeed Zeefuik all only have the rest of the year on their deals here, it is clearly not the stance that he has taken. Was just a selection decision, one that I would agree was the wrong one, but no need to look so deep into it.

Contract or the misguided belief that Zeefuick is better than Nyambe is irrelevant.

It was the wrong decision and we lost the game as we have every time Nyambe hasn't started recently.

[Mercer]

51 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Is there any scope in your mind that dependant on the rest of the season, that could change?

If we go up, it would be an outstanding achievement, of course he would deserve one. 

Even if we got in the play offs and didnt go up, that would be an achievement and would for me warrant an extension.

I think you have to take a step back and put aside a seemingly inflexible opinion of Mowbray as a person. Say for a different club with our comparatively low resources, say we finish 4th and lose in the play off finals. If we had a vacancy in the summer, we wouldn't believe our luck if someone with a recent season like that was available, you talk about credentials, yet seemingly if Mowbray took us to that, close but just missed out, he would be binned mainly based on opinions held prior to this season.

If we stumble and finish outside the play offs, then I think you go for a fresh start.

You have to be ruthless.

If we go up, do we want a repeat of Mowbray's failed Premier League Season with WBA or his, IMO, abysmal time at Celtic?  The answer is no so you say thank you very much Tony but your contract wont be extended, your stock will have increased in the football world so good luck elsewhere.  You then appoint a manager who will give you a much better chance of keeping us up and developing the club - like a Sean Dyche. a Graham Potter, a Ralph Hassenhutl etc.

If we don't go up, Mowbray will have failed after over 5 years at the helm.

We can't afford to regress or tread water any longer.

We need change at the end of the season and there can be no sentimentality.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Mercer

[matt83]

I can’t abide Mowbray as a person I think he’s conned a few with his I’m just a nice stupid working class man from boro routine. When things are going well he’s just about barely tolerable but when things start to unravel, even in a small way, he shows his true colours. 

My main criticism of Mowbray over the years is his commitment to delivering mediocrity. It’s a results business so when he was prattling on about performances in the face of defeat after defeat last season (and pretty much every death spiral been on) many were quick to point that out. So it would be unfair to get rid of a man if he got us promotion or even the play offs.

So when we’re out of the other side of a Mowbray death spiral and the play offs were a distant memory I pray it’s the end of him. Clearly this season has been a pleasant surprise to everybody but unlike Brentford who were building towards promotion I believe we’re this seasons Barnsley having a freak season and no master plan from the manager. 

Edited February 12, 2022 by matt83

[matt83]

I also think for a lot of fans the Spector of Steve Kean looms large over the football club. So Mowbray is afforded so much wiggle room for the reason that the benchmark for success is that at least things aren’t as bad as under Kean. Perhaps when a new generation of fans come through who don’t remember it things will be better but the flip side of that coin is they’ll have only known Rovers as an abomination of a football club. Rock and a hard place. 

[Gav]

20 minutes ago, Mercer said:

We can't afford to regress or tread water any longer.

We need change at the end of the season and there can be no sentimentality.

I don’t think it’s gone unnoticed that you disappeared during the fantastic run we’ve been on, but have now miraculously reappeared after a few losses, Houdini like and it’s great to have you back.

This will probably be our best ever season in the championship under these owners, certainly Mowbrays best points total, it’s hardly treading water or regression, it’s progress season upon season.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Gav

[Mercer]

3 minutes ago, Gav said:

I don’t think it’s gone unnoticed that you disappeared during the fantastic run we’ve been on, but have now miraculously reappeared after a few losses, Houdini like and it’s great to have you back.

This will probably be our best ever season in the championship under these owners, certainly Mowbrays best points total, it’s hardly treading water or regression, it’s progress season upon season.

Don't make assumptions.

Personal reasons.  Full stop.

[Mattyblue]

Well we haven’t seen ‘progression season upon season’, as before this term’s, obvious improvement, we’d finished 15th, 11th, 15th in full Championship seasons under TM. The absolute definition of treading water in a division.

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by Mattyblue

[Gav]

2 minutes ago, Mercer said:

Don't make assumptions.

Personal reasons.  Full stop.

No assumptions here, It’s good to have you back.

[Gav]

1 minute ago, Mattyblue said:

Well we haven’t seen ‘progression season upon season’, as before this term’s, obvious improvement, we’d finished 15th, 11th, 15th in full Championship seasons under TM. The absolute definition of treading water in a division.

 

I think we’ll smash our championship points total this season, progression wouldn’t you say and being top 6 for months isn’t something we’ve experienced under Venkys. 

[Mattyblue]

Of course it’s progression on last season. 

Though it obviously isn’t something that has been happening year on year, last season was a big regression.

The Championship is a difficult league for incremental improvements anyway, most clubs are losing a good chunk of their team every year. I’m happy to have a season out of nowhere like this as next term could be very different … which is why we must not throw it away cheaply.
 

Edited February 12, 2022 by Mattyblue

[Oldgregg86]

Would people still want mowbray if we lost on penalties in the final ?

I personally think he deserves full backing until the end of the season and then should leave with his head held high if we go up or fail to make the play offs regardless.

He isn't equipped to handle big budgets and hasn't got the ruthless drive ( i.e. his infuriating comments last week about we were never playing for second etc (paraphrased) necessary to compete and keep us up. 

Up or staying in the championship its time for a fresh approach, fresh ideas and a different feel amongst the crowd. Another year in the champ without key players and mowbray in charge is a hard sell to floating fans